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tablished in the country, but which were distinction between the rural and the town not passed for some centuries afterwards. parishes ; but I say that the town parishes In the very next sentence, however, I at this moment have no grievance to comthink

my hon. and learned Friend answered plain of, for by a majority they have suchimself; because he observed—what was ceeded in their refusal to pay those rates. perfectly true--that at the time, when this In the country, however, where the impost impost was first levied, the people of this is willingly paid and the property is mostly country were all of one mind in matter of in the hands of Churchmen, and I contend religion, and they bore a common burden in it is wrong to declare by enactment that the consideration of a common benefit. Now, people there shall not have an opportunity does not that go to the very gist of the of making that a permanent charge for question and of the great principle involved the benefit of the poor without occasioning in it ? It is, no doubt, true that there was that strife and agitation which may prevail at that time in this country one uniform in attempting to enforce it. Then comes religion, and that our ancestors imposed the question as it regards the Dissenters ; this charge on themselves in respect of the and here I find that I am met with a cross property which they had in the parish. fire. I am told that by exempting DissenThis tax upon persons in respect of pro- ters I am giving up the principle of an perty was established in order that the poor Establishment, and I am told that the Dismight have the benefits and ordinances of senters will not accept that kind of exreligion in every hamlet and parish through. emption. Sir, the principle of an Estabout the kingdom. Well, that was the prin- lishment I take to be this--that the beneciple upon which church rates were im- factions of those who have gone before posed, and its importance is recognized by you, aided by the State, shall be dedi. the Bill before the House when it exempts cated to the support of one religion for the Dissenters from the payment of the rate. whole country. Those benefactions were It keeps the charge on those who have given for the purpose of enabling every the benefit; and enables those to exempt town and hamlet throughout the kingdom themselves when that benefit is no longer to supply the blessings of religion to the enjoyed. I maintain, therefore, that no va- poor without any charge being placed upon lid reason bas yet been urged why the two them. But by exempting Dissenters from principles contained in the Bill should not the payment of these rates in particular inreceive the assent of the House. The right stances can it be said that you deprive the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe) poor of what they have a right to receive has really raised the only objection I have the ordinances of religion without any heard urged against the measure that is charge upon themselves ? Not a bit of it! anything like a substantial one. The right but since the position of the Church when hon. Gentleman says, instead of putting an these rates were imposed no longer exists end to war and strife on this subject, that in -since, unfortunately, we are not of one bis opinion the Bill before us would tend to mind in regard to religion-we propose to increase it. Now, I take issue with him upon remedy the only practical grievance which that objection. The Bill does not encourage exists in connection with the church rate the imposition of a rate in any place where -namely, that a certain portion of the a majority had already determined that no community being obliged to contribute to. rate should be levied ; nor does it propose wards the sustentation of a Church from to excite agitation in any parish where the which, unlike their forefathers, who lived law was now obeyed. It simply provides when the rate was first imposed, they that, instead of the assessment which our derive no benefit-shall not-while they ancestors for behoof of the Church im- I cease to enjoy the benefit be exposed to posed upon themselves in respect of their the burden. This measure was intended property, there should now be substituted a as a message of peace to the Dissenter. voluntary payment, while it exempts alto. I regret, however, to find it is not retogether those who entertain conscientious ceived by the Nonconformists in that spirit. objections to the payment of the rate. How I regret it the more because non-acceptcould strife be raised or 'increased in pa- | ance of the measure gives rise to conrishes by such a measure as that? Who, tinued agitation on the subject. The obthen, can properly say that the measure will ject of the measure was to combine that occasion

any strife in the country? I concur principle with the endowment which has with the right hon. Gentleman the Member existed—to establish a spirit of conciliation for Kidderminster that you must draw a and peace instead of war and discord. I


will only trouble the House with one or ple to pay for the maintenance of that two observations more. I wish to advort | Church to which they belong; and, seto what has fallen from the hon, and condly, out of consideration for those who learned Gentleman the Member for Ayles do not receive the direct benefits of the bury (Sir Richard Bethell). That hon. Established religion, you may allow them and learned Gentleman says that the case to claim an exemption from payment of before us is the great principle of abolition the rate. In attempting to settle this or non-abolition. The hon. Baronet the question, I may, like many abler and betMember for Tavistock (Sir John Trelawny) ter men, have failed in my object. But puts the question more gently. He says failure in the present case, under exist. if you

have the voluntary principle at all ing circumstances, is not to be wondered why not introduce it without this new ma- at. I shall not, however, despair until I chinery by which you seek to encumber see the vote of to-day. I will not despair, it ? Why not abolish church rates at Sir, where such an offer is made to arrive once, and trust altogether to the voluntary at a settlement of the question in such a principle? I think, Sir, I have shown spirit as I have approached it. I only trust that I have no distrust of the voluntary the House will now adopt the second read. principle by introducing the present mea- ing of the Bill, and improve it as they may

I have shown what Churchmen have think fit in Committee, so as to ensure the done for their Church—how by their ex- great objects aimed at by it. ertions they have extended the benefits of MR. STANHOPE then rose to address religion throughout the length and breadth the House, but it being near six o'clock, of the land. But when I have got the and the House being anxious to come to a endowment principle in aid of the volun- division, the hon. Gentleman was received tary principle, I will never give up the with continued cries of “Divide, divide !" advantages of the one because I can have The hon. Gentleman, after struggling in the assistance of the other. The endow- vain for a hearing, moved the adjournment ment principle is not to be flung away so of the debate. easily. Fling it away in the case of church Motion made, and Question proposed rates, and how can you retain it in other “ That the Debate be now adjourned.' cases also ? Are we to give up what were THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE intended for charitable and benevolent pur- QUER appealed to the House to allow the poses merely because we can get volunteers hon. Gentleman to proceed. to supply the place of those who object to Motion, by leave, withdrawn. contribute their quota ? The great ob- Mr. STẢNHOPE commenced to adjection to giving up the endowment in the dress the House, but was again met with present case is this that if you take it continued cries of “ Divide, divide !” and away entirely there are parts of the king- finally sat down. dom which the voluntary principle will not Question put,

" That the word 'now' reach, and where it will be impossible to stand part of the Question.” provide for the ordinances of religion with- The House divided :-Ayes 171; Noes out the aid of the rate imposed by the 254: Majority 83. piety of our ancestors. Unless you keep

List of the Ayes. up that Establishment for which your ancestors so liberally provided in giving the Adderley, rt. hon. C. B. Burrell, Sir C. M.

Cairns, Sir Hugh M'C. benefits of the Church to the people of the Annesley, hon. H. Carden, Sir R. W. entire country, you will be doing a great Arbuthnott, hon. Gen. Cayley, E. S. injustice to the poor, who have hitherto Ashley, Lord

Charlesworth, J. C. D. Baillie, H. J.

Child, s. been so liberally provided with these bene

Ball, E.

Christy, S. fits. Sir, I have no distrust in the volun- Baring, T.

Churchill, Lord A. S. tary principle: I recognize it in every page Bernard, Tho. T. Codrington, Sir W. of my Bill. It is one of the two principles Bernard, hon. Col. Cole, hon. H. A. contained therein. Let the House in prove Beach, w.W.B.

Corry, rt, hon. H, L.

Cross, R. A. the machinery of the measure if they please: Beecroft, G. S. Cubitt, Mr. Ald. but I entreat of you to admit these two Bennet, P.

Davison, R. principles—first, that, instead of having a Bentinck, G. W. P. Deedes, W.

Disraeli, rt. hon. B. compulsory obligation placed upon all, you Beresford, rt. hon. W.

Du Cane, C. shall allow the voluntary principle to exist Bramley-Moore, J.

Duncombe, hon, Col, in places where there is no objection on Bridges, Sir B. W. Edwards, H. the part of the great majority of the peo- Bruce, Major C.

Egerton, W.

Elphinstone, Sir J. Milnes, R. M.

Ayrton, A. S.

Ellice, rt. hon. E. Estcourt, rt. hn. T. H. S. Montgomery, Sir G. Bagshaw, R. J.

Ellice, E.
Farquhar, Sir M. Moody, C. A.

Baines, rt. hon. M. T. Elliot, hon. J, E.
Fellowes, E.
Morgan, 0.
Baker, R. W.

Elton, Sir A. II.
Finlay, A. S.
Mowbray, rt, hon. J. R. Baring, H. B.

Evans, T. W.
FitzGerald, W. R. S. Naas, Lord

Baring, rt, hn. Sir F.T. Ewart, W. Forester, rt. hon. Col. Neeld, J.

Baring, T. G.

Ewart, J. C.
Forster, Sir G.
Newdegate, C. N. Bass, M. T.

Ewing, H. E. C.
Fraser, Sir W. A. Newport, Visct.

Baxter, W.E.

Fenwick, H. Galwey, Sir W. P. Noel, hon. G. J.

Bazley, T.

FitzGerald, rt, hn. J. D. Gard, R, S. North, Col. Beale, s.

FitzRoy, rt. hon, H. Gilpin, Col. Northcote, Sir S. H. Beamish, F. B.

Foley, J. H. Gladstone, rt. hon, W. Packe, C. W.

Beaumont, W. B. Foley, H. W. Goddard, A. L.

Pakington, rt, hn. Sir J. Berkeley, hon. H. F. Foljambe, F. J. S. Gore, W. R. O. Palmer, R.

Berkeley, F. W. F. Forster, C. Graham, Lord W. Patten, Col. W.

Bethell, Sir R.

Foster, W. 0. Greenall, G.

Peel, rt. hon. Gen. Biddulph, R. M. Fortescue, hon. F. D.
Gray, Capt.
Pennant, hon. Col. Biggs, J.

Fortescue, C. S.
Griffith, C. D.
Percy, hon. J. W. Black, A.

Fox, W. J.
Grogan, E.
Pevensey, Visct. Blake, J.

Freestun, Col.
Haddo, Lord
Philipps, J. H.

Bouverie, rt, hon. E. P. French, Col.
Hamilton, Lord C. Powell, F. S.

Bouverie, hon. P. P. Garnett, W. J.
Lanbury, hon. Capt.
Pritchard, J.
Brand, hon. II.

Gibson, rt, hon. T. M.
Hardy, G.
Pugh, D., Carmarthen Briscoe, J. I.

Gilpin, C.
Hardy, J.

Pugh, D., Montgomery Brocklehurst, J. Glyn, G. C.
Henley, rt. hon. J. W.
Repton, G. W.J. Brown, J.

Glyn, Geo. G.
Henniker, Lord
Robertson, P. F. Bruce, H. A.

Graham, rt. hon, Sir J.
Holford, R. S.
Rolt, J.
Buckley, Gen.

Greene, J. Hope, A. J. B. B. Rust, J.

Bury, Visct.

Greer, S. M'Curdy
Hopwood, J. T.
Sclater-Booth, G. Butler, C. S.

Gregory, W. H.
Hornby, W. H.
Scott, Major
Buxton, c.

Gregson, S.
Horsfall, T. B.
Seymer, H. K.
Byng, hon, G.

Grenfell, C. P.
Ilotham, Lord
Sibthorp, Major Calcraft, J. II.

Grenfell, C. W.
Iludson, G.
Smyth, Col.
Calcutt, F. M.

Greville, Col. F.
Hughes, W. B.
Smollett, A.

Calthorpe, hon. F. H. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Hume, W. W. F.
Spooner, R.

W. G.

Grey, R. W.
Hunt, G. W.

Stanhope, J. B. Campbell, R. J. R. Grosvenor, Earl
Ingestre, Visct.
Stirling, W.

Cardwell, rt. hon. E. Gurdon, B.
Johnstone, J. J. H. Steuart, A.

Castlerosse, Visct. Gurney, J. H.
Jolliffe, H. H.

Stewart, Sir M, R. S. Cavendish, hon. W. Gurney, s.
Jones, D.
Sturt, H. G.

Cavendish, Lord G. Hadfield, G.
Kekewich, S. T. Sturt, N.

Cheetham, J.

Hall, rt, bon, Sir B.
Kelly, Sir F.
Tempest, Lord A. V. Clay, J.

Hamilton, C.
Kendall, N.
Thornhill, W. P. Clifford, C. C.

Hanbury, R.
Ker, R.
Tollemache, J.
Clifford, Col.

Hankey, T.
Kerrison, Sir E. C. Trefusis, hon. C. H. R. Close, M. C.

Hanmer, Sir J.
King, J. K.
Vance, J.
Cobbett, J. M.

Harcourt, G. G.
Knatchbull, W. F. Vansittart, G. H. Codrington, Gen. Harris, J. D.
Knight, F, W.
Vansittart, W.

Coke, hon. W. C. W. Hatchell, J.
Knox, Col.
Verner, Sir W.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Hay, Lord J.
Knox, hon. W. S. Walcott, Adm.

Collier, R. P.

Hayter, rt, hn. Sir W. G. Langton, W. G.

Walpole, rt. hon. 8. H. Cotterell, Sir H. G. Headlam, T. E.
Lefroy, A.
Warre, J. A.
Cowan, C.

Heneage, G. F.
Legh, G. C.
Welby, W. E.
Cox, W.

Hodgson, K. D.
Lever, J. O.
Whatman, J.

Craufurd, E. H. J. Ilolland, E.
Liddell, hon. H. G. Whitmore, H.

Crawford, R. W.

Horsman, rt. hon, E. Lisburne, Earl of Willson, A.

Dalglish, R.

Howard, hon. C. W. G. Lockhart, A, E. Woodd, B. T. Davey, R.

Hutt, W.
Lyall, G.

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S. Davie, Sir H. R. F. Ingham, R.
Lygon, hon. F.
Wyndham, Gen. Deasy, R.

Ingram, H.
Lytton, rt. hon. Sir G. Wyndbam, H.

Denison, hn. W. H. F., Jackson, W.
E. L. B.
Wynn, Col.
Dent, J. D.

Jervoise, Sir J. C.
Macartney, G.
Wynne, W. W. E. De Vere, S. E.

Johnstone, Sir J.
Macaulay, K.
Yorke, hon. E. T. Dillwyn, L. L.

Keating, Sir H. S. Mainwaring, T.

Dodson, J. G.
Malins, R.

Kershaw, J.
Duff, M. E. G.
Joliffe, Sir W.
Manners, Lord J.

King, hon. P.J. L.
Taylor, Colonel

Duff, Major L. D. G.
Maxwell, hon. Col.

Kinglake, A. W.
Duke, Sir J.

Kinglake, J. A.

Duncombe, T.
List of the NOES.

Kingscote, R. N. F.
Dundas, F.

Kinnaird, hon. A. F. Adair, H. E. Alcock, T. Dunlop, A. M.

Knatchbull-Hugessen, E Adeane, H. J.

Anderson, Sir J. Dutton, bon. R. II. Labouchere, rt. hon. H. Agnew, Sir A. Antrobus, E. Egerton, E. C.

Langton, H. G.

Laslett, W.
Russell, A.

Levinge, Sir R.
Saint Aubyn, J.


Salisbury, E. G.
Locke, John
Salomons, Ald.
sented à petition from the

Lowe, rt. hon, R. Schneider, H. W. Merchants, and Residents at Singapore,
Luce, T.
Scrope, G. P.

in the Straits of Malacca, praying that Macarthy, A. Shafto, R. D.

English interests in those settlements may Mackinnon, W. A.

Shelley, Sir J. V. Mangles, C. E.

receive full consideration in the Re-organiSheridan, H. B. Marjoribanks, D. C. Smith, J. A.

zation of the Executive Government of InMarshall, w. Smith, M. T.

dia. The petitioners expressed the satisMartin, C. W. Smith, rt, hon. R. V.

faction with which they had seen the terMartin, P. W.

Smith, A. Martin, J.

mination of the Indian mutiny, and the Somerville, rt, hon, Sir Massey, W. N.

W. M.

transference of the Governor of the ComMatheson, A.

Stanley, hon. W. O. pany to the Crown, called attention to the Mills, T. Stapleton, J.

growing importance of the trade between Mitchell, T. A. Steel, J.

Singapore and Great Britain, which was Monsell, rt. hon. W. Stuart, Lord J. Monson, hon. W. J. Stuart, Col.

now greater than that between Singapore Morris, D. Sykes, Col. W. I.

and the East Indian possessions. The Mostyn, hn. T. E. M. L. Talbot, C. R. M. whole amount, of exports and imports into Napier, Sir C.

Thompson, Gen. Singapore exceeded £12,000,000, greater Nicoll, D. Thornely, T.

than the whole trade of the Dutch in those North, F.

Tite, w.
Ogilvy, Sir J.
Tollemache, hon. F. J.

seas, and next in importance to Bombay Onslow, G. Tomline, G.

after Calcutta and Madras. They prayed Osborne, R. Trueman, C.

that in consideration of the amount of Paget, c. Turner, J. A.

British capital involved in the settlement Paget, Lord c.

Vane, Lord H.
Pease, H.
Verney, Sir II.

of Singapore, with a view to its more effi.
Pechell, Sir G. B. Villiers, rt. hon. C. P. cient protection, and to counteract the
Peel, Sir R.
Vivian, U. H.

encroachments of the Dutch, Parliamevt Perry, Sir T. E. Vivian, H. J. C. W. would consent to travsfer the rule of that Philips, R. N. Walter, J.

settlement from India to the Imperial GoPigott, F.

Watkins, Col. L.
Pilkington, J.
Western, S.

vernment, and that a governor of Singa-
Portman, hon. W. H. B. Westhead, J. P. B. pore and of the Straits Settlements might
Price, W. P.
Whitbread, S.

be appointed, with extended powers similar Puller, C. W. G. White, J.

to those of the Governor of Hong Kong Ramsay, Sir A.

Wickham, H. W. Ramsden, Sir J. W.

and the Superintendent of British trade in Willcox, B. M.G. Rebow, J. G. Williams, W.

China, and they asked that this Governor Ricardo, J. L. Wilson, J.

should be enabled to negotiate treaties with Ricardo, o. Wise, J. A.

the Native Powers for the extension of our Rich, H. Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

trade, and to see that our engagements Ridley, G.

Wood, W. Roebuck, J. A. Woods, II.

with the Dutch and other Powers in those Rothschild, Baron L. de Wyld, J.

seas were duly observed. The petitioners Rothschild, Baron M. de Young, A. W.

considered this imperatively necessary for Roupell, W.


the safe protection of British trade in the Russell, Lord J. Russell, H.

Trelawny, Sir J. Archipelago. They also called attention

Ilardcastle, J. A. to the circumstances under which the setWords added.

tlement of Sarawak, on the mainland of Main Question, as amended, put, and Borneo, and at no great distance from Sinagreed to.

gapore, had been formed by Sir James Bill put off for six months.

Brooke, and begged that the claims of the Ilouse adjourned at four minutes British residents and settlers in Sarawak before Six o'clock. might be taken into consideration, and that

Sarawak might become one of the British
Colonies, or at all events taken under the

protection of the British Crown. The noble HOUSE OF LORDS,

Lord said that, taking into view the mag

nitude of the commerce of Singapore, and Thursday, March 10, 1859.

its vast increase since it was originally esMixutes.] Public Bills.—1* Manslaughter; In- of Sir Stanford Raffles, this was a request

tablished by the forethought and sagacity dictable Offences (Metropolitan District); Convict Prisons Abroad.

not hastily to be refused. Singapore was 2* Manor Courts, &c. (Ireland).

the emporium of all the British trade with VOL. CLII. (THIRD SERIES.)

3 F

the Indian Archipelago, Java, Siam, and arsenal. We had no place in those Indian Cochin China. That trade, taking imports seas where ships could be repaired or reand exports together, now amounted annu- fitted ; at Hong Kong, he believed, there ally to £12,000,000 sterling. Singapore was was no accommodation for the purpose, also the port where every steamer or sail. but Singapore was admirably adapted for ing vessel engaged in the trade with China, that purpose ; it was a place where every which was now so greatly on the increase, vessel on her way must touch, and the must pass; the vessels going to the China port was considered very good, and the abseas must call at Singapore to obtain their sence of storms rendered it a safe anchorcoal or other supplies, and through Singa- age for shipping. He understood that the pore must pass every line of electric tele- revenues of Singapore were amply suffigraph that might hereafter be laid down cient to pay the expenses of its civil goto connect us with any point in the Eastern vernment, though of course the military Archipelago. It should be observed that expenses were another matter ; hitherto other European nations were now making they had been defrayed by the Indian great efforts to establish or extend their Government; but if the Government were own settlements in that part of the world; transferred to a Governor sent from Eng. the Dutch were spreading themselves more land, it would be a question whether they and more throughout the Indian Archipe. should not fall upon the Imperial Exchelago, and endeavouring to exclude the Bri- quer. He thought it would be necessary tish merchants from a participation in the to station a body of European troops there; trade ; the French were about to establish and as the Navy Commission had recomthemselves in Cochin China, and New Cale. mended that an additional force of 5,000 donia, and the Spaniards were extend- English marines should be levied, there ing their possessions from the Philippine was no place more suitable for a portion Islands to the Sooloo Islands and the of them than Singapore, where they would neighbourhood of Borneo. It was, there protect the great highway of commercial fore, most important that a British Go. intercourse between India and China, and vernor and Superintendent of Trade fur- would be ready, if required, to render vanished with competent authority should luable assistance on board ship, as there be stationed at Singapore to watch the ought always to be a force of gun-boats proceedings of foreign nations, and to stationed in the waters of Singapore. Ile protect our own interests in those seas. therefore trusted he should receive from Hitherto the government of Singapore had Government an assurance that they were been under the authority of the Governor. not unfavourably disposed to entertain this General of India. One matter of which question of transferring Singapore from the the inhabitants of Singapore complained, Governor General of India to the Governand not without reason, was, that the place ment at home, and appointing a Governor had been made the depôt of the convicts of the Straits Settlements with competent from India ; and not only that, but they powers.

He had also to ask for informawere obliged to expend large sums for the tion of the intentions of Her Majesty's maintenance of those convicts ; and they Government with regard to the settlement expressed the gratification which they felt of Sarawak. He had seen with regret that on a recent occasion the Indian mu. that, in the autumn, a deputation which tineers were not transported to Singapore, waited upon Lord Derby with respect to as was at first intended, but to the Anda- the claims of Sir James Brooke, and with man Islands. He did think that if it were a view to urge that the Government should still deemed necessary for India that con- take possession of that settlement and esvicts should be sent to the settlements of tablish it as a British colony, received very Singapore and Malacca, at any rate the ex- little encouragement, or rather an answer pense of maintaining them there ought to which rendered their request almost hopefall entirely upon the Indian revenues. Ile less. He would not now discuss the ques. (Lord Stanley) thought it was of great tion of establishing a British colony there, importance that there should be at Sin. or of granting any pecuniary compensation; gapore an officer, authorized to protect but British settlers bad gone there, British British interests in those seas, and to ne money had been invested there, the Gogotiate treaties with the Native Powers. vernment had established a bishopric there, Another point to which the petitioners and missionaries had gone out; and it called attention was the importance and would be a serious thing if that settlement facility of making Singapore a great naval was to be entirely deserted.

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