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cost four or five hundred dollars for damages; it might have cost as many thousands. I have been studying to see how I could make it so that a car could not, under any circumstances, get away on the hill. I put a skidding device into operation last winter, attaching an iron shoe to chains and attaching these chains to the sill of the car in front of the wheel; and they are hung on a joint or rod, bent to the point ; and by simply turning that rod, the skid drops on the rail, and the wheel runs up against it, and stops the car dead. I found, in several instances, that this device worked splendidly. I was not entirely satisfied with it, because in bringing the car up so suddenly, it is very apt to break a chain or split the timber, and then, of course, you are entirely lost. Lately I have begun to work on this matter, and have put down a double rail in the centre of the tracks all the way up the hill. I put a shoe in the centre of the car, about midway between the axles, fastened to a piece of timber attached to the cross timbers of the car ; and on the timber I put a lever, and at the end of the lever an iron shoe, and then I have a brake-shaft on the front end of the car operated in just the same manner as the ordinary brake. When the usual brakes give out, or when the track is so slippery that the car slides, the driver just puts on this extra brake; and then, if the ordinary brakes are in perfect condition, we have no trouble at all in stopping the car. This extra shoe on these centre rails will lift an ordinary car right off the track, if the brake is put on hard enough. I was on the hill the other day, and a nut came off one of the brake beams, and immediately, as soon as the driver found he could not hold the car with the ordinary brake, he put on the extra brake and brought the car to a dead stop. I think I have something now that is a pretty sure protection against cars going down the hill.

Mr. Wm. Richardson, of Brooklyn : Will Mr. Small state what weight it adds to the car ? Mr. Small : I do not think it adds fifty pounds to the weight of

We have not weighed it; but I assume it would not weigh over fifty pounds, and the expense is comparatively light. I do not think the cost would exceed ten dollars per car, if a number were to be fitted up.

the car.



Mr. King: I failed to touch upon one point when I was speaking, and which accomplishes the same results as the apparatus just described. found in Providence, after the accident I spoke of, that Mr. Longstreet, on the Union Railroad, had something in use, lately invented, which was said to be very good. The President of our road and myself went to Providence for the purpose of investigating it, and we found that what they had, which was the testimony of the gentlemen representing the road, and who used the device, was a very sure protection against accidents on grades, as they had found by experience, and we immediately ordered two sets for trial. Mr. Longstreet, if present, could give the names of the inventors, and other information, in case any of the gentlemen here should want to know about the machine. All our cars are equipped with a double set of brakes, each one in its construction and operation entirely independent of the other; one set on the outside, and the other on the inside of the wheels. Now we propose to put on this contrivance that has lately been invented, which also brings into action a shoe brake, if you choose to so call it, constructed with a rubber face, which is brought to bear on the head of the rail, and the manipulation of which enables you to get the benefit of the weight of your car on the same general principle as that referred to by the gentleman who spoke last. It is simple in its construction, and we believe it will meet all the requirements of the severest cases.

Mr. Love: I would like to hear from Mr. Sage. He made some suggestions as to different matters connected with horserailroading; and I want to know what he thinks about them. I hope he will give us his views on these matters.

I wanted to say.


STREET-RAILWAY SUBJECTS. Mr. Sage, of Easton: I stated this morning very explicitly what

I have a few little things which I think we should talk about, so that we may understand matters applying directly to horse-railroads. What improvements are necessary; the best springs; the easiest running gear; the best manner for heating and lighting cars ; which is the best rail, and in what manner should it be laid ; is it well to lay the rail on cross-ties; which is the better chair, the cast iron or steel ; are the girder rails brought to the attention of railway men to-day as good as, or better than, the old side-bearing rail; and if so, why? As to horses : how are they being fed and cared for in different parts of the country ; which are the best horses for street-car purposes, and where can the best horses be obtained, and at what prices; if they are fed upon feed mixed with hay; do they need long hay; do they have hay fed to them continually; how many miles per day are they traveling? Now, all these matters have been discussed ; but, as a matter of fact, we are learning every day, and at this time we can explain to each other our different methods or usage in regard to all of these things; and it would be so much pleasanter to hear how much better one road is doing than another. Let us continue just the same as when this organization was first instituted, to take everything into con sideration in relation to running street-cars by horses; because that is the regular and general way of running street-cars at the present day. We are not all millionaires; and we do not all have the head bankers of the country to sustain us in our little peccadilloes of theories. I speak for myself, and not for these gentlemen here; and what I said this morning was in the kindliest spirit, only that I got provoked at the way in which the time of the Association was being taken up by electric railway constructors. I am not the most sanguine fellow in the world; but I get led right along, and before I know it, I may be led into this electrical business and lose all I have. (Laughter ] And here is Brother Richardson, who does not give us any advice, and does not even say a word. Mr. Richards, of Boston, is not here any more, and we cannot get anything from him. Nobody is with us any more; none of the old-time speakers ; nobody but these outside people, and I have got enough of them. That is the reason I made those remarks this morning. I want to come here; I want to bring my wife with me; I want this to be a ladies' affair [laughter]; but I do not want to come if I do not learn anything.

Mr. Scullin, of St. Louis: For the information of the gentleman, I would suggest that he consult his neighbor, Mr. Owen, of Reading. I am informed by some gentlemen, who are well qualified to judge, that Mr. Owen has been the most successful operator of horse-railroads in the United States; and I believe these gentlemen do not live very far apart.

Mr. Wm. Richardson, of Brooklyn: It strikes me, Mr. Chairman, that a number of the questions that were asked are worth not merely careful study, but are worthy of careful answers. I want to suggest to Mr. Sage that he move the appointment of a committee to which these various questions shall be referred, so that each can be answered in the shape of a report at the next meeting; and allow me to suggest one question to be added, and that is, how can we best prevent "strikes ?”

Mr. Love, of Philadelphia: With your permission, Mr. President, I will reply to our friend from New England. You gentlemen who are gathered here have been street-railway Presidents for many years; but at your last meeting a gentleman from New Hampshire gave you a description of an eight-wheel car that it would be possible to run on street-railway tracks. When you have your trucks in the centre of the car you must expect more or less oscillation, but when you arrange your trucks one at either end of the car, you can run a car without any such motion. All of the cars that you are running to-day have got a see-saw motion, simply because you have located your gearing in the centre of the car, leaving both ends just like a boy riding on a see-saw. When you take double trucks you have a double motion, just like a universal joint; and in this case one horse will do more work than two horses under the other system.



Mr. Bracken, of New York : Mr. President, will you allow one who is not a delegate to interrupt you for a moment to ask a question. Yesterday you were kind enough to state the relative cost of cable and horse traction ; and among other things you said that it cost twenty-four and two-thirds cents a car per mile to run with horses in Chicago, and something like ten cents per mile with cable. It was gratifying' to me to get this information, although it seemed to astonish some of the gentlemen who sat beside me. One of the most important things for those engaged in electric traction is to know the actual cost of horse traction. I have endeavored for the last two years to find out from various gentlemen, who have had years of experience in that line, what it cost them for motive power to run a sixteen foot car, say seventyfive miles a day. One of the leading railroad men in this country, and I will name him, Mr. Kemble, of Philadelphia, came to New York to confer with Mr. Julien and myself to ascertain the cost of electric traction as compared with horse traction. He stated that in his experience of ten years it had cost about seven dollars and a half a day for a sixteen foot car for motive power. Another gentleman from Philadelphia said that it amounted to six dollars. A gentleman in New York, who is at the head of one of the largest railroads in that city, astonished me by the statement that it costs only four dollars and a half.

Allow me to say that this is very contradictory and bewildering ; and I hope you will regard my remarks in that light only—that I seek to get some accurate information. It won't do for electric traction people to pretend that they can operate your cars more cheaply than with horses, no matter what that cost may be; and that they can throw in a chromo with the system. On the other hand it won't do for you to hide from them what it costs you to run with horse traction ; but I am sure if it costs you six dollars and a half, we can do it for five dollars ; and there will be some profit in it for you and some for us. Therefore, my suggestion would be that, among the other information which the committees are to give us, they tell us as to the cost of motive power when the roads are operated by horses. Of course, I know that this cost may vary as to the number of miles covered ; but we will take as a standard a sixteen foot car, running seventy-five miles a day.



Mr. Kerper, of Cincinnati : I want at this time to reply to the question of Mr. Richardson as to how to prevent "strikes." I can reply how to successfully put an end to strikes. We had discharged about one hundred men on our road, and the men who remained with the Company were continually threatened. We took an affidavit from every one of the men in our employ. We stated that the men were willing to run and operate the cars, but were intimidated from so doing by the discharged men, and that they considered that their lives were in danger. It was on Sunday that we did this, and on Monday we called at nine o'clock in the morning on one of the Judges at his house and got a personal injunction out against every man who had struck, and they were all served by the sheriff. The men soon found out that

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