Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Yes, in the workshop of Messrs. Fawcett, Preston and Co. where the work was going on in the machinery.

LORD CHIEF BARON. "There was work doing, as I understand; there was work doing for the vessel which was numbered 2,209. I went on board the Alexandra, and I found on board the Alexandra the articles which had been made for No. 2,209;" that is all.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. He states that the Alexandra was the same.

Mr. KARSLAKE. Yes; we have passed that.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. He has stated that the Alexandra, as it is now called, was the same vessel that was called in the workshop 2,209.

LORD CHIEF BARON. You say they were making the machinery that you made?—No, I did not make any of it.

That was made in your works; did you see it on board the Alexandra?—Yes.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. There is no objection to that at all; we will consider the weight of it afterward. That question was put and answered without an objection on our part; but my learned friend, as I understand, now puts this question to ask the witness whether the Alexandra, or the vessel for which this machinery was made, was generally spoken of in some particular way in the workshop.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. As 2,209?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. I understood it; or by any other description.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. That was the question I put.

LORD CHIEF BARON. I think if the object of it is to show that anybody had used any expression or uttered a single syllable the effect of which would be to give a character to the vessel tending to advance the present information, I do not think it would be admissible.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. I hope your lordship understands that I put the question with reference to what was said in the workshop of the claimants.

LORD CHIEF BARON. I will go as far as this: if even among the people who were working, the vessel had acquired a nickname that nobody could mistake, that I do not think would be admissible.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. I will put a question to which I think there will not be any objection at all. (To the witness.) Do you know the gentlemen who compose the firm of Messrs. Fawcett, Preston and Company?-Some of them.

I will give you the names; tell me if you know them ?—Yes.

Do you know Mr. Preston?—Yes.

Do you know Mr. Willink?—Yes.

Do you know Mr. David Wilson Thomas?—Yes.

Do you know Mr. William Thompson Mann?—Yes.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Those are the names on the record.

LORD CHIEF BARON. You know them all?-Yes.

Then I may take it, "I know all the defendants."

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. (To the witness.) Did you hear this vessel spoken of by any one of those gentlemen, or in the presence of any one of those gentlemen, by any description except No. 2,209?-No.

While the machinery was being prepared were you frequently at work in your business of a carpenter.in the erecting shop?-Sometimes.

Is that the shop where the machinery is prepared and fitted for the vessel?--Yes. While you were there did you ever see a gentleman of the name of Hamilton ?—Yes; I have seen him there.

Did you see him there frequently or seldom ?—I have seen him there pretty often. When he was there did you see whether he paid attention or did not pay attention to the machinery?-I could not say that he did particularly to any branch of it. I could not see that he did to that branch of the machinery more than to another.

Besides that machinery which was being prepared for the No. 2,209, was other machinery for vessels being prepared in the same room at the same time?—Yes.

Do you remember while the machinery was in progress for the Alexandra whether any gun or guns were prepared?—Yes; they were preparing some at the same time as she was in the building.

I think you said some carriages just now?-Some carriages and guns were prepared at the same time.

At the same time that the machinery was being prepared, as I understand you?—Yes. Was it any part of your business, and were you employed with regard to the gun carriages, and the slides for those guns?-I was working at them.

You were working at the gun carriages and slides?—Yes.

You say that 2,209 was the number by which the vessel was called?—Yes.

Was there any number connected with the guns?—Yes, each gun had a separate number.

LORD CHIEF BARON. Not 2,209 ?—No.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. How many guns were there that you are speaking of?—

Three.

One large gun, was it?—Yes.

And two small guns?—Yes.

Were the small guns rifled or not?-Rifled.

You say each had its number?—Yes.

Was there a number on the gun carriages, and slides for the large guns?-There would be the same number as the guns; they would all go by the same number; each would go by its own number.

Do you remember whether there was a number upon the gun carriages and slides, fitted for the large guns?—The same number upon the carriages as upon the guns.

What was that number?-That I will not say; I will not be positive of the number. LORD CHIEF BARON. The number on the gun carriage was the same as on the gun?—

Yes, exactly.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Do you remember any of the numbers or not?-As far as opinion went. I would not swear to the number.

To the best of your recollection?-I think 2,205 and 2,204 were the numbers of the small guns; of the large one I would not say.

Have you any recollection at all about the number of the large guns?—No.

One way or the other?-No.

As to the manufacture of the guns and gun carriages, I think you said it was going on at the same time as that of the machinery ?-Yes.

The whole was treated as one job?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. He has not said so.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Was it so or not?—No.

Were they, as far as you could see, manufactured for use in the same vessel as the machinery or not?—That I could not say; they might be, or they might not be.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS.-I object to that.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Can you tell us as a workman.

LORD CHIEF BARON. He says he cannot.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Did you see the Alexandra after the seizure, or after she had been launched?-Yes. I have seen her after she was seized, and after she was launched both.

You have seen her after she was seized?—Yes.

Can you tell us about how high the larger gun, whatever its number may have been, would stand?-The height of the gun?

Yes, on the gun carriage?-It would stand about four feet.

And the smaller ones?-About three, I think.

You told us that you knew Mr. Sillem, one of the partners ?—Yes.

Was he frequently in the shop of his own firm at the time when this machinery and the guns were going forward ?—Yes.

Did you notice whether he did or did not pay any particular attention to the guns?— They were generally there; he was the principal partner in that line.

That is his line?-Yes.

Have you seen from time to time Mr. Hamilton with Mr. Sillem in the shop?—Yes. I mean at this time when the machinery and the guns were in preparation ?—Yes. Have you at any time or times heard Mr. Sillem speak of alterations, either in the screws of the gun carriages or other matters connected with the guns in Mr. Hamilton's presence?—I have heard him make the remark that he could make improvements in the compressor screws.

You have heard Mr. Sillem say that to Mr. Hamilton?—Yes.

That he could make improvements in the compressor screws?-That he had done so. What did Mr. Hamilton say upon that?—He thought it was a great improvement upon the old original one.

He said that?—Yes.

LORD CHIEF BARON. In the lock?-No; the compressor screws.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. You told us the small guns were rifled?—Yes.

Do you remember about what time it was that the casting of the guns for the carriages was going on?-It was all going on together.

At the same time that the rifling of the small guns was going forward?-Yes.

As to the rammer and sponges for the guns, were those made in the same shop?-No. In the pattern shop?—Yes.

That is another place, is it?—Yes.

Were those gun carriages of a common or of an unusual kind?—They were good

ones.

Were they of an ordinary description, or were they rather difficult to construct ?— Rather difficult, I should say.

Not of a very ordinary or common description?-No.

Do you remember what they were made of?-English elm.

And of what were the slides made?-Teak wood.

Did you happen to know where the teak wood for the slides was obtained?—Yes. Where -At Mr. Miller's.

At Mr. Miller's yard?—Yes.

Did you see the gun carriages finished?—No, they were not quite finished when I left.

Had they, or had they not, been nearly finished for some time before you left ?—Yes. For how long a time had they been nearly finished?—I should say about three months they had been nearly finished.

Do you remember being employed about a vessel called the Orato or Oreto?—No, I never was employed on her.

Or upon the guns of that ship?-I cannot tell whether they were for her or not. However, do you know anything about guns for a ship, or about a ship of that name?-They were supposed to be for her; that is all.

What do you mean by "supposed?"-It was the opinion of the men in the yard.
What are you speaking of -I could not say they were for her.

Do you mean guns?-Guns, and carriages, and slides.

You know nothing except the talk of men in the yard; is that so ?—Yes.

Was there a gentleman of the name of Smith in the employment of your masters as a draughtsman-Yes.

Do you remember hearing Mr. Sillem say anything to Mr. Smith about the drawing, or about a drawing which he produced of a large carriage for a gun?-Not to Mr. Smith; he did to Mr. Howarth.

Was he a draughtsman ?-Yes.

What was it that he said to Mr. Howarth ?-It was altered; the carriage was to be raised about eleven inches higher than it formerly was.

Some gun carriage was raised eleven inches higher than it had been?-Yes.

Was it about that that Mr. Sillem spoke to Mr. Howarth ?—Yes.

What did he say about it?-He only said that it would have to be altered; he took the drawing away and altered it, and then he wrote again for the drawing; he took the drawing away from the shop and sent it back to us to be according to the new drawing, which was eleven inches higher.

Was it before it was made eleven inches higher or after that there was this conversation between Mr. Sillem and Mr. Howarth; before the gun carriage had been raised eleven inches?-Before.

Mr. Sillem said it would have to be altered and raised?—Yes.

Did I understand you that he said anything about the drawing?—Mr. Howarth took the drawing away.

Mr. Sillem showed Mr. Howarth the drawing ?—Yes.

Of the gun carriage as it would be when raised?-Yes; it had to be raised.

Mr. Howarth took the drawing and went away?—Yes.

Did Mr. Sillem tell Mr. Howarth why it was that the gun carriage would have to be raised?—No, I cannot say that he said anything about it.

Did you hear him or not ?—I did not hear him say anything about it.

Did you hear the name of any vessel mentioned at the time for which the gun carriage was intended in the conversation between Mr. Sillem and Mr. Howarth ?—Not in that conversation; I have not.

Or at any time when Mr. Sillem or any of the other partners were present?-No. One word more about the gun-carriages which you were making while the machinery for the Alexandra was being prepared; were those made from drawings?—Yes. LORD CHIEF BARON. All gun-carriages are inade from drawings, are they not?—Yes; everything is made from drawings there.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. According to the custom of the business in which you are engaged, do drawings for gun-carriages and the like bear the number of the thing that is to be made from them?-Yes; they bear the number of the job.

Of the job, whatever it is?—Yes.

When you had made those gun-carriages from the drawings, did you leave the drawings with your masters?—I left them in the shop; they were there when I left.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL (to Sir Hugh Cairns.) Will you produce the drawings of those gun-carriages; you have got the notice to produce them; of the gun-carriages made by the witness at the time when the machinery was in preparation; there were gun-carriages for three guns, a large gun and two small ones. SIR HUGH CAIRNS. We do not produce anything.

Cross-examined by Mr. KARSLAKE:

Can you tell me when you left ?-Three or four months since.

I have a very few questions to ask you about these gentlemen by whom you were employed. They carry on business as engineers and founders on a very large scale, do they not?-Yes.

I believe they have eight hundred or nine hundred workmen employed at a time on their premises?—I dare say, if you take both yards into consideration, there would be more than that.

I believe they make all sorts of machinery?—Yes.

Rice mills, cotton presses, and other things?-Yes; all sorts.

And the hands generally are pretty full of work?-Always very busy since I have been there.

I suppose your work as a joiner was carried on under one particular roof, was it not!-Yes.

And the machinery was put in another place ?—Yes.

And was there one place where guns were bored?-They were bored in one place. And they are constantly boring guns, are they not? It is a part of their business to bore guns?-Yes.

And if you go into the yard, you generally find a quantity of guns which are there ready for sale ?-O, any sort you like.

How long had you been in their employment before you left on this occasion ?— About a year and eight months.

Now you said that the teak on which you worked came from Messrs. Miller's yard?— Yes.

They are dealers in timber, are they not?—Yes.

Teak is the best wood for making slides, is it not?-I do not know.

It is as good as any?—I suppose it is as good as any.

It is commonly employed for making slides of guns?—I cannot say; I never made any slides before I went there.

That is a very fair answer. English elm is used for the carriages, is it not?-Yes. I suppose you had never made a carriage before you went there, had you?—Yes, I had.

You have made some there and some before?—I have made many there.

Now you have been asked about this number, as if there was something mysterious in it. All work in your workshops goes by a number, does it not?—Yes; everything goes by a number, according to the job that it is for.

Then you know what it is for by the number?—Yes.

And I suppose whenever you make a gun-carriage there is a drawing for the guncarriage?-Yes.

That is the usual practice?—Yes.

Re-examined by the SOLICITOR GENERAL:

What jobs were these guns for?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. I object to that question. There was no cross-examination on that.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. I understand my friend declines to produce the drawings, although we have called on them to do so.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. We have no notice to produce, which we answer.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. The notice to produce has been served on you.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. We have a notice to produce the gun drawings for the ship Alexandra; but that is all.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. At the time when these guns were being made, were there any other gun-carriages and slides being made?-Not at the same time.

Then do I understand that you do not know what these guns were for?

Mr. KARSLAKE. I object to that. We have not asked him a word about it.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. It was not cross-examined upon.

Mr. BENJAMIN HODGSON sworn and examined by the SOLICITOR GENERAL:

Are you a warehouseman ?—Yes.

Where are you employed now ?-In the Wapping Dock warehouse at Liverpool. Were you for any length of time in the service of Fawcett, Preston & Co. ?-About a year and eight months.

In what department of their works were you?-When I first was there I was put in the yard as a laborer, and after I had been there a short time I was put in the packing

room.

Were you in the packing room in the earlier part of this year?—Yes.

And some time before?-Yes.

When did you leave the service of Fawcett, Preston, and Company?-About the same week as Carter left.

Some time before you left, were Fawcett and Company making any machinery for any particular ships?-Yes.

What ships-The Alexandra and the Phantom.

Were they making guns?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. Were you engaged about the machinery ?-No; but it all had to

come to the packing room before it went out of the yard, or was sent there.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. Besides machinery, were they making guns ?—Yes.

And gun carriages?—Yes.

And shot ?-Shot.

And shell?-Yes.

Do you know for what vessel they were made?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. I object to that. It does not appear that they were made for any vessel at all.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. Do you know for what purpose?

Mr. MELLISH. Did you hear from the defendants for what purpose?-ought to be the question. How could he know for what purpose?

LORD CHIEF BARON POLLOCK. All he ought to answer is, "I do know." Then whether he knows it from any source is for further consideration.

Do you or not know for what purpose those things were made?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. Do not answer as to vessels, but simply say yes or no. Do you know it?

LORD CHIEF BARON POLLOCK. Do you know the fact?-No. You were speaking about shot and shell. I don't know what they were for.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. No; I am speaking about guns and gun carriages.—The guns and gun carriages were supposed to be for the Alexandra.

What ground have you for that belief?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. No, no, that will not do; he says they were supposed to be; not that he believed anything.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. I will put the question in another way.

LORD CHIEF BARON POLLOCK. In stating his grounds for that belief, he may state so many things that are not evidence that it would be very dangerous to admit his an"Do you know it?" should be the first question.

swer.

Mr. MELLISH. Unless he was told by the defendant, how could he know it?

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. We will put the question in a different way.
SIR HUGH CAIRNS. Do not let him answer the question until we hear it.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. Was it your duty to go where the work was about to be packed; was it your duty to go to the shops to see how far it was advanced ?—I was sent over; either I or Mr. Bradshaw went.

Who was in the habit of sending you over for that purpose?—Mr. Bradshaw, who is in the packing room along with me.

He was employed with you?—Yes; he was employed in the packing room.

You said you or Mr. Bradshaw went, or were sent over ?—Yes.

Who sent you over?-Mr. Bradshaw would send me or go himself.

When you were sent, were you directed as to what you were to inquire for ?-For such a number-2,209.

You were to inquire for 2,209?—Yes.

For what things were you to inquire identified by that number?-Everything belonging to the machinery.

Were you to inquire for any guns as identified by that number?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. No, no, really that will not do; what a complex question.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. Were you ever sent to inquire for guns?—No.

Were you ever sent to inquire for gun carriages?—No.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. Do not answer so quickly. My friend must not put his questions so rapidly. We have no time to object to them.

LORD CHIEF BARON POLLOCK. Your interposition, so far, is too late, but it turns out to be unnecessary, for the witness says, I never was sent for guns or gun carriages.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. I beg my friend to put his questions a little slower, and let us have an opportunity of objecting to them if there be any necessity to do so.

no objection to the answer, as it happens.

There is

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. Were you sent for machinery for that number?—Yes.
And for clenches and bolts?—Yes.

You had to pack them?-I took them up myself.

Did you take them to the ship?—Yes.

And you know that they were for that ship by that number?—Yes.

Did you ever hear that ship spoken of by any one of the partner in the office?—No; not by any one in the office.

Did you ever hear any one else speak of it ?—I heard Mr. Speers say

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. No, no; that will not do.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. What is Mr. Speers?-He is the manager.

The manager of Fawcett, Preston and Company's business?—Yes.
What did you hear of him?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. I object to that. Just let us hear the question.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. Did Speers give you any orders for any of those things? LORD CHIEF BARON. The better way is to turn your attention from the witness, and direct your question to me when it is objected to.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. My question is this, my lord: Did Mr. Speers, who is stated to be the manager or foreman of Fawcett, Preston & Co.'s works, give the witness any orders with respect to those things?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. What things?

The SOLICITOR GENERAL. Machinery, clenches, and bolts.