The greatest good he anticipated from the power given the Magistrates of suddenly seizing persons assembled together, and subjecting them to mild punishment, which might prevent the necessity of ever having recourse to a more severe one. There was nothing, in his opinion, in the measures, which could give the smallest reason to conclude that they were actuated in anywise at present by passion.

Mr. Whitbread explained. He disclaimed having thrown any imputation on the Magistrates. The honourable Member for Yorkshire had said, it was casy for persons sitting at their ease in that House to blame the conduct of others. That was not his affair. He hoped he should behave himself properly, whenever he was placed in a situation where it was necessary; but at present his own conduct had nothing to do with the question-he had merely to contemplate the conduct of others.

Sir F. Burdett always contemplated with jealousy every innovation on the old laws of the country, which, in the long run, would always be found the most beneficial. The honourable Member who had sat down (Mr. Wilberforce) seemed prepared to go any lengths that Ministers might demand, even the lengths that had been gone in Ireland, if necessity should require it-that is, he was prepared to go the length of inflicting torture for the purpose of producing confession; for that was the system which was adopted in Ireland-a system of torture applied to produce confession by the Government of the country. He saw from the gestures of the honourable gentleman that he did not assent to the proposition as he now stated it; but he appealed to those gentlemen who now heard him, if what he had said was not to that effect-(No, no!). The honourable Member had said he was prepared to go even further lengths, if circumstances should require it; and he proceeded to make some observations on that subject, which he contended could receive no other constitution. He hoped the noble lord was not entering on that bloody career which was run by the Government of Ireland. The noble lord had always disclaimed having any part in that Government; and a gentleman was at present in prison for a libel, in having said that the noble lord belonged to that Government. He wished to do justice to the noble lord, not being willing to fix an imputation rashly on any man. If he understood the question, it was proposed to convert what were now capital offences into misdemeanours. The meaning of this was, that

by a summary mode of proceeding, half a dozen of harmless people, who might be met together for the most innocent purposes, might be liable to be seized and exposed to all the inconveniences of a trial for misdemeanour, for what at present was no crime at all. Another Bill was to be brought in for the purpose of allowing the searching for arms. Every man by law had a right to arms for his own and his family's defence. He could not consent to give a Magistrate power to search for and take away from a man, that on which the safety of his family might depend. If he were to believe the honourable Member for Yorkshire, the discontents were spreading, and the laws were quite unequal to suppress them. But was not this contrary to all the information which had been received, that the acts had not been so often repeated as formerly? He was informed by a gentleman of great credibility who came from the neighbourhood of Houghton Mills, that the account of that case had been very much exaggerated. This gentleman he had recommended to go before the Committee; but they refused to receive any evidence but what coincided with their own views. Of the forty persons who met on the moor, ten of whom were spies, twelve were afterwards convicted-a pretty considerable proportion. There were many of the convictions at Lancaster and Chester of which he could not approve. At Lancaster, women and boys of 16 were hanged for stealing potatoes-a punishment by no means proportioned to the offence, and which could only excite disgust, and by no means serve for an example. Had these cases been laid before the Prince Regent, he believed his humanity would have made them the objects of royal mercy; and he was the more inclined to believe this, as only two of those who were convicted at Chester were executed. The honourable Member for Yorkshire had disputed the conclusion drawn by the honourable Member for Bedford, from the evidence before the Committee, that the discontents arose from distress; and yet,when they recollected the evidence given before the Committee on the Orders in Council, which stated the utmost degree of human misery to prevail among the poor manufacturers, there was no need to look to other causes to account for the disturbances. Against what were all their efforts directed? Against machinery, which those ignorant people suppose to be the cause of their distresses. The honourable Member for Yorkshire had attributed the evil to certain seditious publications.Then he must stop the press altogether

(hear!). It would not be sufficient to convert a felony into a misdemeanour, but it would be necessary to stop the press and put an end to all discussion. Indeed, except the grievances of the country were removed, it would be necessary to put down all discussion. It was absolutely necessary to put the press down, or to stop where they were. The hon. baronet proceeded to ridicule the idea of the appointment of a Secret Committee, to inquire into this business. What secret came before them which did not appear in all the newspapers? There was another subject to which he would allude, one of great importance, though not one in which many, perhaps, would concur with him. If attended to, indeed it would go to remove many of the causes of our present discontents-he meant reform among themselves. Ho would not, however, dwell upon it now, as he intended before the present session closed to bring it at large before the House. With regard to the measures proposed to meet the occasion, he would abstain from saying any more till the Bill was brought in, and the scope of it more generally understood. He was of opinion that the laws, as they at present stood, were sufficient, if they were vigorously enforced, which he could not think they had been.

Mr. Wilberforce spoke in explanation. He said the - honourable baronet had insinuated that he (Mr. W.) would go the length of supporting the system of torture: but he denied that such an inference could be deduced from any thing that had fallen from him.

Mr. Canning said that, having been one of the Committee, he felt he should not discharge his duty to himself. or the House if he abstained from offering his sentiments upon the measures proposed, especially when he recollected the diversity of opinion which seemed to prevail as to their propriety. One honourable gentleman thought them stronger than the case warranted, while another thought they did not go far enough. For himself, however, he thought the measures met the case as far as possible; but if he entertained any doubt upon the subject, that doubt would lean rather to his honourable friend's opinion (Mr. Wilberforce) than to that of the honourable Member for Bedford. He said this, not certainly from what appeared on the face of the Report, but from other circumstances that had come within his knowledge, well entitled to belief, though not exactly in evidence. He contended, however, that the Report itself presented such facts as left no option, but to call VOL. III.-1812. 4 E

upon Parliament, that they would enable the Government, during the recess, to provide for the evils that threatened the country. He was one of those who had divided, in the Committee, with an honourable Member, for the production of evidence: but this view was not to fortify his opinion as to the acts of atrocity that had been committed, but to ascertain whether the causes of those acts were to be found in political or in commercial motives. If that evidence had been permitted, and it had been substantiated that their origin was in political, and not in commercial motives, he, for one, should have been prepared for larger measures. The impression on his mind, however, was, that great acts of outrage had been perpetrated; that the peace of whole districts was disturbed, and the lives of its inhabitants endangered; but that, though those acts might be connected with individuals who entertained wider schemes, such schemes were not made out in the Committee. It was his opinion, indeed, that the Report rather under-stated than over-stated the danger, and perhaps it was right in doing so; at least if they erred at all, it was better that error should be on the side of leniency, especially as the noble lord had stated that nothing should stand in the way of re-assembling the Parliament, if the measures now in contemplation should be found inefficient. It had been asserted by some, that the law as it now stood was adequate to the case, and that the Magistrates were slow in using the power in their hands; it was true, indeed, that some few instances of such negligence had undoubtedly come before them, but he thought they should be very slow in throwing a slur upon that gratuitous magistracy, which was honourably peculiar to this country, and which secured to us, beyond any other, our political and civil liberty. In alluding to the proposed measures for checking the growing evils that now threatened the country, a very false mode of reasoning had been adopted by an honourable Member. He said, look at the poor wretches upon whom they were to operate, and an attempt was thus made to excite compassion. Every man must be aware, that take a single object, and contemplate him, not in the moment when he was committing his crime, but in that moment when he was about to expiate it, and hard indeed must be the materials of his heart, who, looking at his sufferings, would not think of them and forget his deed-(hear, hear!). That principle, however, could not be carried into legislation. They were then to look, not at whom they

were to punish, but whom they were to save-and among those to be saved must be included, not only all those whose days and nights were passed in terror and alarm-whose lives were threatened-whose property might be destroyed -but those also who had not yet been drawn into the vortex of guilt, and to whom "return would be more tedious than go o'er." An honourable Member had contended, that the rioters could not be considered as an armed force, because it was not in evidence. But it was in evidence that arms were stolen, and that those who stole them were drilled; not indeed that they were drilled with the very arms they stole; but it could hardly be supposed that two such operations should be going on in precisely the same part of the country, and yet that it was never intended the arms and the rioters should meet together-(a laugh). He concluded by expressing his belief, that the measures opposed were efficient and satisfactory, as the circumstances to which they were to be applied had not their origin in any political motives.

Mr. Lambe thought it unnecessary to go into the causes of the present discontents, it was suflicient that they existed, and that they must be repressed. With regard to the measures suggested, he thought their whole elicacy would depend upon the manner in which they were to be carried into effect.

Lord Castlereagh contended that the evidence which was required in the Committee had not been produced, because it was the general opinion that if produced it would not have materially affected the general result of the inquiry. With regard to the objections of an honourable Member under the gallery, that the Act for searching for arms would not be effectual because not prompt enough, he must say, that all idea of taking them by surprise, or by any general and immediate exertion, was out of the question. Such a mode of proceeding would be most offensive, and most irritating. In Ireland, however, the effect of a similar measure had been that Government obtained the possession of 100,000 arms, not by surprise, but by its gradual operation. With respect to the plans that were pursued in Ireland, he wished to say a few words, and especially upon the detestable imputation that torture was sanctioned or authorised by Government. He could assure the House, that as far as he knew, there was no instance of torture being inflicted with the authority or knowledge of Govern.

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