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heard before I for one should wish that they be heard at this time, even though they did not care to be heard the other time, and I make a motion to that effect.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Before that motion is put, I think the proper way would be for the committee to decide whether it is going to have aný hearings before it decides to hear particular people.

Senator L'HOMAS. And what length of time is to be given.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Yes; and what length of time is to be given. If we decide to have no hearings there is no use of talking about hearing particular people.

Senator THORNTON. Mr. Chairman, I am inclined to think that is a reasonable proposition advanced by the Senator from Connecticut, and I am willing that the other should be taken up first. I certainly, however, will ask that the New Orleans people have the opportunity to be heard. I am not in favor of others who were here two years ago, and were heard then all they wanted to be heard, being heard again.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Before we take that up, Mr. Chairman, if I may be allowed to say so, I think perhaps anybody who has any requests for a hearing might be allowed to state it now, and then we could consider the question of whether we are going to have any hearings. I see that the Senator from Washington (Mr. Jones) is present, and I did not know but what he had something that he wanted to present.

Senator JONES. Yes. I do not think there is any section of the country that is more interested in this matter than the Pacific coast, and especially the people of our State. They feel that their interests are involved very deeply in this proposition. I have here a telegram from the West Coast Lumber Manufacturers' Association, reading as follows:

Following telegram sent Senator O'Gorman. Please wire results. Considering the President's asservations in his message to Congress that free tolls would foster a monopoly and is an economic mistake, we are justly entitled to a hearing before the Interoceanic (anal Committee. We respectfully request that the date be made at such time as possible for Pacific coast representative to appear.


D. E. SKINNER, Chairman Committee. I take it from this telegram that a telegram has been sent to the chairman of this committee asking for a hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. I have received such a telegram and a great many others from citizens in the West and Northwest.

Senator JONES. I have here a telegram from George Milton Savage, the president of the Tacoma Chamber of Commerce and Board of Trade, asking for a hearing. I have also a telegram from the Seattle Chamber of Commerce about other matters, which closes by saying:

Also wiring Senator ()'Gorman asking coast interests be granted a hearing before the Senate committee reports on tolls repeal. Will you please reenforce this?

I will file those telegrams. I tried to get in touch with Senator Poindexter this morning, but was not able to do so. I am satisfied. though, that he would concur in my request for a hearing on behalf of our interests before this committee.

(The telegrams referred to are as follows):

Senator WESLEY L. Jones,

Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C. Tacoma Commercial Club and Chamber of Commerce under instructions of resolution adopted by board of trustees to-day offers sincere protests against repeal of freetolls measure. We believe that American dollars invested in Panama Canal should not be used to destroy or injure American commerce. Repeal would menace industries and commerce of entire Pacific coast. We urge that you use every possible energy to prevent undoing of the just and reasonable canal regulations adopted the last Congress.



Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C.:. Referring recent telegram covering protest Tacoma Commercial Club and Chamber of Commerce against free-tolls repeal, urge that you make every effort to secure hearings; very important that western representatives on way to Washington have opportunity to present arguments.

Geo. Milton SAVAGE, President. The CHAIRMAN. In this connection I might say that I have received similar requests from the San Francisco Chamber of Commerce; the Tacoma Commercial Club and Chamber of Commerce; the Silverton Commercial Club, of Silverton, Oreg.; the West Coast Manufacturers' Association, Seattle, Wash.; the South Bend Commercial Club, South Bend, Wash.; the Aberdeen Chamber of Commerce, Aberdeen, Wash.; the Polson Implement Co., from Seattle, Wash.; the Rainier, Rainier, Oreg.; A. C. Little, mayor, Raymond, Wash.; the Raymond Commercial Club, of the same place; the Centralia Commercial Club, of Centralia, Wash.; the Astoria Chamber of Commerce, of Astoria, Oreg.; all asking that they be given an opportunity to present their views regarding the pending legislation. (The telegrams are as follows:)

SILVERTON, OREG., April 4, 1914. Hon. JAMES A. O'GORMAN,

United States Senale, Washington, D.C. We protest against the repeal of the exemption clause in the Panama ('anal tolls law, and urgently ask for a hearing before your committee. This matter is of vital importance to the entire Pacific coast and we believe the country at large.


SEATTLE, WASH., April 4, 191.4. Senator JAMES A. O'GORMAN,

Washington, D. C.: In the interest of American business and shipping, the Pacific as well as the Atlantic coast, we most sincerely urge a proper hearing before your committee against the bill repealing exemption of tolls through the Panama (aval.

PERRY POLSON, President Polson Implement ('o.

SEATTLE, Wash., April 6, 1914. Hon. Jas. O'GORMAN,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C. Considering the President's asseverations in his message to Congress that free tolls would foster a monopoly and is an economic mistake, we are justly entitled to a hearing before the Interoceanic Canal Committee. We respectfully request that the date be made at such a time as possible for Pacific coast representative to appear.

D. E. SKINNER, Chairman Committee.

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SOUTHBEND, Wash., April 4, 1914. Jas. O'GORMAN,

Washington, D. C. Free tolls necessary to the success of our various industries. Use every effort to postpone final action until further hearing can be secured. The Pacific coast helped pay for the canal and constitutes a part of the United States.


ABERDEEN, WASH., April 4, 1914. Hon. Jas. O'GORMAN,

Washington, D. C. We protest against free tolls repeal. Will work an injury to the whole country as well as Pacific coast. We petition that hearings be granted before final action injurious to Nation's welfare be taken.


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SEATTLE, WASH., April 6, 1914.
Hon. J. A. O'GORMAN,
Chairman Interoceanic Canals Committee,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.
Pacific Northwest so vitally concerned in Panama Canal tolls issue we respectfully
ask that committee grant hearing to coast interests before making report on repeal


RAINIER, OREG., April 4, 1914. United States Senator O’GORMAN,

Washington, D. C.: Free tolls to our coastwise vessels means lower freight rates by rail as well as water as is of vital importance to the Northwest. Can you arrange a hearing before your committee for our representative? If so will send one at once.


RAYMOND), Wash., April 4, 1914. Senator James A. O'GORMAN,

Chairman Committee Interoceanic Canals, Washington, D. (': Our citizens earnestly protest against repeal of free tolls act This action serious blow to the lumber business, our basic industry. British Columbia manufacturers have big advantage in shipping rates. The repeal of free tolls will give them our business. We urge delay until Pacific coast interests can be heard.

A. (. LITTLE, Mayor.

RAYMOND, Wash., April 4, 1914. Hon. JAMES A. O'GORMAN,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: The repeal of the law exempting American vessels engaged in the coastwise trade from the payment of tolls through the Panama ('anal is a very serious matter to the Pacific coast, and will greatly handicap the development of coast wise commerce between the Atlantic and Pacific, and will give to England and ('anada the benefits that should rightfully come to the United States from their construction and operation of the canal. We therefore respectiully urge that you delay action on the measure until representatives of the commercial organizations of the Pacific coast have been given an opportunity to be heard by your committee.


('ENTRALIA, WASH., April 4, 1914. Hon. Jas. A. O'GORMAN,

United States Senator, Washington, D. C.: If possible, kindly use your influence to procure hearing by the people on free tolls canal bill now pending. Free tolls is of vital importance to lumber and all other industries on thiş coast.


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Astoria, OREG., April 4, 1914.
Senator O'GORMAN,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.:
We respectfully urge that you endeavor have action on repeal of canal tolls
held until a hearing can be had from different sections of the country. This chamber
reiterates its objection to the repeal of the measure.

The CHAIRMAN. I have also received a letter, with resolutions
attached, from a committee representing the commercial, industrial,
and horticultural interests of the State of Oregon.
(The letter and resolutions are as follows:)

PORTLAND, OREG., March 28, 1914.

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.
DEAR SIR: The undersigned, a committee representing the commercial, industrial,
and horticultural interests of this state, desire to express their gratitude and obligations
they are under for the firm stand taken by you in the protection of American rights
in an American waterway:

We value our honor quite as highly as do those who propose to concede without
question to foreign nations the right to exercise a control in our domestic affairs. Free
tolls are not asked in behalf of shipping interests but for the producers and consumers
of this country who pay the freight. Important as this question is, not only to the
producers but to the ultimate consumer, it is far more important that the rights of this
country be maintained over our own waterways. We have never been impressed with
the logic or reason, much less the necessity, for abandoning the policy of our Govern-
ment, as evidenced by the proposed repeal of the free-toll provision of the Panama
Canal act.

It may be that Congress will so act, but its action in this respect will in no wise
change our views as to the right of the question, and it is our firm belief that instead
of settling a controversy, the subject will continue to be agitated until it is definitely
determined whether the canal is to be controlled by the United States or is to be sub-
ject to the control of other nations.

We take pleasure in handing you resolutions passed on yesterday at a meeting of
representatives from the States of Oregon and Washington engaged in lumber and other
industries, and feel assured that it is fairly representative of the sentiment of the vast
majority of our people irrespective of politics.
Wie beg leave to remain, very truly, yours,


F. S. KNAPP, Chairman.

Whereas aiter due deliberation Congress in prescribing rules to be observed by ship-

ping in the use of the Panama Canal as provided in the Hay-Pauncefote treaty has
enacted into law a provision exempting American shipping engaged in coastwise
trade from payment of tolls for passing through the Panama Canal, which act was
approved by the United States; and
Whereas a bill is now pending in Congress which has for its purpose the repeal of said

law so enacted, and
Whereas such action is so antagonistic to the interests and national policy of this

country as to justify the unalterable opposition of the citizens of the United States
thereto, and believing that the action heretofore taken by Congress is in no sense
a violation of the said treaty, and that the repeal of the existing law would be an
admission that Great Britain and other nations of the world had the right to inter-
fere and intervene in our purely domestic affairs:

Resolved, That we reaffirm our former declaration that there be no tolls charged
through the canal on vessels coastwise flying the American flag and we most ear-
nestly request that you continue to oppose the repeal of the present law and do all
in your power to maintain the same as it now stands.

Řesolved further, That in view of the importance of the question not only to the Pacific coast but to the American people, it is our belief that hearings should be had before the Senate Committee on Interoceanic Canals before a measure of such farreaching consequences be acted upon, and we hereby respectfully request such hearings be granted.

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The CHAIRMAN. What is the pleasure of the committee?

Senator THOMAS. That indicates what we must export if we grant unlimited hearings. It means that we will be here for a number of months, because those who represent the other side of this question will also want to be heard, and of course if you open the doors at all you open the doors to everyone. I do not object to that at all, but I think we ought to limit at the outset the time that the committee is going to devote to public hearings.

With reference to States, it seems to me if we hear from the representatives of one State, unless there is some peculiar reason why a certain part has an interest different from some other part of it, that ought to be sufficient. Take the State of Washington, for instance, Here are a number of applications from a large number of places, and I presume their interests are identical. Why could they not be required to select some one person as a representative to present the whole case?

Senator Walsh. I was going to suggest that all of those apparently could be grouped.

Senator THORNTON. I have always stood in the Senate, and always will stand, for liberty of discussion and freedom of discussion, and not only in the Senate, but in committees, in all proper cases. But I am opposed to an indiscriminate opening being given to all these cities on the Pacific coast, for this reason: Two years ago they sent here as the representative of the entire Pacific coast, Mr. Wheeler, of the San Francisco Chamber of Commerce. Senator Jones, then a member of this committee, asked him in the presence of the committee. " Ire you representing the Pacific coast here in this matter?" And he said that he was speaking for all of them, and that there was no one else but him. So we must assume that to be the fact.

Therefore, they had their opportunity and availed themselves of it to have their case presented and they can not present anything more now than was presented by their agent. Mr. Wheeler, for them. And, therefore, for that reason, I am opposed to opening this to practically unlimited discussion, especially as I am perfectly and entirely frank to say that, in my opinion, this is largely worked up by interested parties, in order to prolong the discussion and get a delay in this maiter. I want everything that is fair. just, and right, but we want to get through with this matter some time, and I am opposed to the Pacific coast, which sent its special representative here two years ago, when he was given all the time that he wanted, and was on the stand two and three times in rebuttal to what was said on the other side, and just as long as he chose to be heard, now having this matter reopened, and a dozen different bodies there wishing to appear before this committee.

Senator PERKINS. I will say to the Senator that the Pacific coast is satisfied with the action taken by Congress.

Senator THORNTON. I beg the Senator's pardon.

Senator PERKINS. I say the Pacific coast is perfectly satisfied with the action which we took in ('ongress last year. Now we propose to reverse it.

Senator THORNton. The point I make is that the Pacific coast sent its representative here two years ago, representing every single one of these bodies, by their own admission and by his admission. Consequently, they have had their hearing and they can not present any

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