Do you know Mr. Mann?—Yes; I saw him in the yard.

Who is Mr. Mann?-A tall gentleman, leanish, rather like a gentleman I see on the other side of the court.

He is one of the firm of Fawcett, Preston, and Company?—Yes; I believe so.

Cross-examined by Mr. MELLISH:

What was your business at the yard?-An engine driver.

That is, you keep up the fires of the engines, is it not?-Yes; and look after the engine.

You had nothing in the world to do with the ship-building?-No.

How long have you been there ?—About four years altogether; better than four years since first I went.

Had you been there all that time, or had you been away occasionally?—No, I had been away.

You left them three months ago, I think you say?—Yes, about three months ago. What have you been doing since you left?-I have been driving a patent steam hammer since that.

Where at ?-At Mr. Ryder's, the ship-builder.

Have you been there the last two or three weeks; are you in their employ now?—I work for Messrs. Cato and Miller.

You are in their employ now, are you?-Yes, I was.

Were you discharged from there also ?—No; I had to come away from there to attend this.

How long ago was that?-It will be a fortnight to-morrow, I think; a fortnight on Thursday; that is the real time.

You say that three years ago, I think, some gunboats were built for the government?-Yes.

What vessels were building in the yard at the time that the Alexandra was built?— There was one called the Huddersfield.

What sort of vessel is that?-She is an iron boat.

LORD CHIEF BARON. How many vessels were in course of building in the yard altogether?-Four.

Mr. MELLISH. The Huddersfield?—Yes; the Huddersfield, the Alexandra, and the Phantom.

I think you say that Captain Tessier used to come and look round the yard, but principally at the Phantom ?-Principally at the Phantom.

What sort of a boat is the Phantom ?-She is a steel boat.

Is she a gunboat?-No; not that I know of.

Is she a merchant vessel?-She is like a merchant vessel.

Re-examined by Mr. LOCKE:

You say that you now work for Messrs. Cato and Miller ?—Yes.

Where do they carry on their business?—At the side of the Brunswick Graving Dock.

At Liverpool?-Yes; at Liverpool.

You are still in their employ?-No; I had to leave.

Had you to leave to come up to town?-Yes.

When you get away from the business which brought you to town, are you going to Liverpool then?-I suppose so.

And going into their employ again?-I think so. Perhaps I may.

Perhaps somebody will have occupied your place?—Yes.

The witness withdrew.

Mr. ALEXANDER ROBINSON SWorn, and examined by Mr. JONES.

I believe you are a joiner, living in Liverpool ?—Yes.

You were formerly in the employ of Messrs. Fawcett, Preston and Company?—I

was.

How long since is it that you have left?—I left about two months ago.

Was it your business there to make gun carriages?—Yes; that was my employment. LORD CHIEF BARON. What is the name of your employers?-Messrs. Fawcett, Preston, and Company.

Mr. JONES. Was it your business to make gun carriages?-Sometimes.

Do you remember in particular making gun carriages, or helping to make gun carriages, for three guns in particular?-Yes.

What were the guns that you were making gun carriages for?-Pivot guns.
How many, I mean?-Three.

Was there one large gun?-I believe there was.

And two other smaller guns?—Yes.

There was also helping to make these gun carriages, I believe, a man named Joseph Carter, was there not?-Yes. I knew a workman by that name.

How long were you employed in making these gun carriages?—I was variously employed-not constantly.

While you were so employed, did Mr. Hamilton come to the premises?—I have seen him at times, several gentlemen

I was just asking at present about Mr. Hamilton; did he come in company with anybody else; will you tell me?—I have seen a gentleman called Mr. Hamilton.

Did he come there while you were making these gun carriages?—Yes.

Did he inspect the making of the gun carriages ?-Merely looking at them.

Do you know the boat Alexandra-Yes.

Have you done any work upon that boat while she was in Messrs. Miller's yard?— Very little.

What was it that you did?-I was about an hour sometimes in fixing a frame for the pitch of the propeller shaft.

By whose direction did you do that?-By our foreman's.

Whose foreman was it that gave you that direction?-Messrs. Fawcett and Preston's. LORD CHIEF BARON. He says our foreman; that would, of course, be the foreman of the person by whom he was employed.

Cross-examined by Sir HUGH CAIRNS :

Messrs. Fawcett, Preston and Company are very extensive engineers, are they not?-Yes.

They make a great many steam engines, do they not?—Yes.

For steam vessels ?-Yes.

They make a great many guns, do they not?-Sometimes.

A good many in a year?-Yes.

And have done so for many years, do you not know?—Yes.

How long have you been with them?-I was twenty-two months.

And, I suppose, you saw a good many guns made in that time?—Yes.

And gun carriages ?—Yes.

Why did you leave those with whom you had been living for this time? What was the reason?-To suit myself better.

You struck for higher wages, did you?-No; we did not strike.

You yourself struck?-Yes; it was to suit ourselves better.

You wanted higher wages, and you did not get them, and you were discharged?—No; we did not. We were not discharged; we went without being discharged.

There were a good many visitors, were there not, in the habit of going to Messrs. Fawcett's works to see what was done there?-Yes.

The witness withdrew.

Mr. JOSEPH CARTER sworn, and examined by Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Are you a joiner, living at Liverpool?-Yes.

Were you in the service of Messrs. Fawcett, Preston and Company of that town for some time?—Yes.

How long?-Seven or eight or nine months.

Are you out of their service now ?-Yes.

When did you leave their service?—It would be three or four months ago.

How came you to leave their service?-For an advance of wages.

You wanted more wages and they would not give it ?—Yes.

For some time before you left, in April last, were your masters, Messrs. Fawcett, Preston and Company, making machinery for a propeller boat?—Yes.

Was the boat for which the machinery was being prepared known in your workshop by a number?-Yes.

What was the number?-2,209.

Have you been on board the Alexandra since she was seized ?—Yes.

You have seen her in the Toxteth dock?—Yes.

Is that the same vessel that was called 2,209 ?—Yes.

While you were engaged in the preparation of the machinery in Messrs. Fawcett, Preston and Company's shop was the vessel spoken of or described by any other name except 2,209 ?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. I think my learned friend must put the question in another form; I do not know to what statement he refers.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. I will state why I put the question. I do not wish to argue the point which has been decided. I understood your lordship to say that the answer to the question which we proposed could not be insisted upon, partly on the ground that it was not connected with the actual construction or works upon the vessel. I am now asking whether, in the course of the actual construction of the machinery in the workshops of the claimants, the defendants, as they have been called, such a particular term and description were used; it stands upon somewhat of a different footing from the former question in that respect.

LORD CHIEF BARON. Whether he ever heard it spoken of other than as the No. 2,209.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Yes, in the workshop of Messrs. Fawcett, Preston and Co. where the work was going on in the machinery.

LORD CHIEF BARON. "There was work doing, as I understand; there was work doing for the vessel which was numbered 2,209. I went on board the Alexandra, and Ĩ found on board the Alexandra the articles which had been made for No. 2,209;" that is all.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. He states that the Alexandra was the same.

Mr. KARSLAKE. Yes; we have passed that.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. He has stated that the Alexandra, as it is now called, was the same vessel that was called in the workshop 2,209.

LORD CHIEF BARON. You say they were making the machinery that you made?—No, I did not make any of it.

That was made in your works; did you see it on board the Alexandra ?—Yes.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. There is no objection to that at all; we will consider the weight of it afterward. That question was put and answered without an objection on our part; but my learned friend, as I understand, now puts this question to ask the witness whether the Alexandra, or the vessel for which this machinery was made, was generally spoken of in some particular way in the workshop.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. As 2,209?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. I understood it; or by any other description.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. That was the question I put.

LORD CHIEF BARON. I think if the object of it is to show that anybody had used any expression or uttered a single syllable the effect of which would be to give a character to the vessel tending to advance the present information, I do not think it would be admissible.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. I hope your lordship understands that I put the question with reference to what was said in the workshop of the claimants.

LORD CHIEF BARON. I will go as far as this: if even among the people who were working, the vessel had acquired a nickname that nobody could mistake, that I do not think would be admissible.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. I will put a question to which I think there will not be any objection at all. (To the witness.) Do you know the gentlemen who compose the firm of Messrs. Fawcett, Preston and Company?-Some of them.

I will give you the names; tell me if you know them?—Yes.

Do you know Mr. Preston?—Yes.

Do you know Mr. Willink?-Yes.

Do you know Mr. David Wilson Thomas?—Yes.

Do you know Mr. William Thompson Mann ?—Yes.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Those are the names on the record.

LORD CHIEF BARON. You know them all?—Yes.

Then I may take it, "I know all the defendants."

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. (To the witness.) Did you hear this vessel spoken of by any one of those gentlemen, or in the presence of any one of those gentlemen, by any description except No. 2,209?-No.

While the machinery was being prepared were you frequently at work in your business of a carpenter in the erecting shop?-Sometimes.

Is that the shop where the machinery is prepared and fitted for the vessel ?--Yes. While you were there did you ever see a gentleman of the name of Hamilton ?—Yes; I have seen him there.

Did you see him there frequently or seldom-I have seen him there pretty often. When he was there did you see whether he paid attention or did not pay attention to the machinery?—I could not say that he did particularly to any branch of it. I could not see that he did to that branch of the machinery more than to another.

Besides that machinery which was being prepared for the No. 2,209, was other machinery for vessels being prepared in the same room at the same time?—Yes.

Do you remember while the machinery was in progress for the Alexandra whether any gun or guns were prepared ?—Yes; they were preparing some at the same time as she was in the building.

I think you said some carriages just now?-Some carriages and guns were prepared at the same time.

At the same time that the machinery was being prepared, as I understand you?—Yes. Was it any part of your business, and were you employed with regard to the gun carriages, and the slides for those guns?-I was working at them.

You were working at the gun carriages and slides?—Yes.

You say that 2,209 was the number by which the vessel was called?—Yes.

Was there any number connected with the guns?—Yes, each gun had a separate number.

LORD CHIEF BARON. Not 2,209 ?—No.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. How many guns were there that you are speaking of?Three.

One large gun, was it?—Yes.

And two small guns?—Yes.

Were the small guns rifled or not?-Rifled.

You say each had its number ?—Yes.

Was there a number on the gun carriages, and slides for the large guns?-There would be the same number as the guns; they would all go by the same number; each would go by its own number.

Do you remember whether there was a number upon the gun carriages and slides, fitted for the large guns?-The same number upon the carriages as upon the guns.

What was that number?-That I will not say; I will not be positive of the number. LORD CHIEF BARON. The number on the gun carriage was the same as on the gun?— Yes, exactly.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Do you remember any of the numbers or not?-As far as opinion went. I would not swear to the number.

To the best of your recollection?—I think 2,205 and 2,204 were the numbers of the small guns; of the large one I would not say.

Have you any recollection at all about the number of the large guns?—No.

One way or the other?-No.

As to the manufacture of the guns and gun carriages, I think you said it was going on at the same time as that of the machinery?—Yes.

The whole was treated as one job?

SIR HUGH CAIRNS. He has not said so.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Was it so or not?—No.

Were they, as far as you could see, manufactured for use in the same vessel as the machinery or not?-That I could not say; they might be, or they might not be.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS.-I object to that.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Can you tell us as a workman.

LORD CHIEF BARON. He says he cannot.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Did you see the Alexandra after the seizure, or after she had been launched?-Yes. I have seen her after she was seized, and after she was launched both.

You have seen her after she was seized?—Yes.

Can you tell us about how high the larger gun, whatever its number may have been, would stand?-The height of the gun?

Yes, on the gun carriage?-It would stand about four feet.

And the smaller ones?--About three, I think.

You told us that you knew Mr. Sillem, one of the partners?—Yes.

Was he frequently in the shop of his own firm at the time when this machinery and the guns were going forward?—Yes.

Did you notice whether he did or did not pay any particular attention to the guns?— They were generally there; he was the principal partner in that line.

That is his line?—Yes.

Have you seen from time to time Mr. Hamilton with Mr. Sillem in the shop?-Yes. I mean at this time when the machinery and the guns were in preparation ?—Yes. Have you at any time or times heard Mr. Sillem speak of alterations, either in the screws of the gun carriages or other matters connected with the guns in Mr. Hamilton's presence?—I have heard him make the remark that he could make improvements in the compressor screws.

You have heard Mr. Sillem say that to Mr. Hamilton?—Yes.

That he could make improvements in the compressor screws?-That he had done so. What did Mr. Hamilton say upon that ?-He thought it was a great improvement upon the old original one.

He said that?—Yes.

LORD CHIEF BARON. In the lock?-No; the compressor screws.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. You told us the small guns were rifled ?—Yes.

Do you remember about what time it was that the casting of the guns for the carriages was going on?-It was all going on together.

At the same time that the rifling of the small guns was going forward?—Yes.

As to the rammer and sponges for the guns, were those made in the same shop ?—No. In the pattern shop?—Yes.

That is another place, is it?—Yes.

Were those gun carriages of a common or of an unusual kind?-They were good

ones.

Were they of an ordinary description, or were they rather difficult to construct ?— Rather difficult, I should say.

Not of a very ordinary or common description?—No.

Do you remember what they were made of?-English elm.

And of what were the slides made?-Teak wood.

Did you happen to know where the teak wood for the slides was obtained?—Yes. Where?-At Mr. Miller's.

At Mr. Miller's yard?—Yes.

Did you see the gun carriages finished?—No, they were not quite finished when I left.

Had they, or had they not, been nearly finished for some time before you left?—Yes. For how long a time had they been nearly finished ?—I should say about three months they had been nearly finished.

Do you remember being employed about a vessel called the Orato or Oreto?—No, I never was employed on her.

Or upon the guns of that ship?-I cannot tell whether they were for her or not. However, do you know anything about guns for a ship, or about a ship of that name?—They were supposed to be for her; that is all.

What do you mean by "supposed?"-It was the opinion of the men in the yard.
What are you speaking of -I could not say they were for her.

Do you mean guns?-Guns, and carriages, and slides.

You know nothing except the talk of men in the yard; is that so ?—Yes.

Was there a gentleman of the name of Smith in the employment of your masters as a draughtsman?—Yes.

Do you remember hearing Mr. Sillem say anything to Mr. Smith about the drawing, or about a drawing which he produced of a large carriage for a gun?-Not to Mr. Smith; he did to Mr. Howarth.

Was he a draughtsman ?-Yes.

What was it that he said to Mr. Howarth ?—It was altered; the carriage was to be raised about eleven inches higher than it formerly was.

Some gun carriage was raised eleven inches higher than it had been ?—Yes.

Was it about that that Mr. Sillem spoke to Mr. Howarth ?—Yes.

What did he say about it ?—He only said that it would have to be altered; he took the drawing away and altered it, and then he wrote again for the drawing; he took the drawing away from the shop and sent it back to us to be according to the new drawing, which was eleven inches higher.

Was it before it was made eleven inches higher or after that there was this conversation between Mr. Sillem and Mr. Howarth; before the gun carriage had been raised eleven inches?-Before.

Mr. Sillem said it would have to be altered and raised?—Yes.

Did I understand you that he said anything about the drawing?—Mr. Howarth took the drawing away.

Mr. Sillem showed Mr. Howarth the drawing ?-Yes.

Of the gun carriage as it would be when raised?—Yes; it had to be raised.

Mr. Howarth took the drawing and went away?—Yes.

Did Mr. Sillem tell Mr. Howarth why it was that the gun carriage would have to be raised ?—No, I cannot say that he said anything about it.

Did you hear him or not?—I did not hear him say anything about it.

Did you hear the name of any vessel mentioned at the time for which the gun carriage was intended in the conversation between Mr. Sillem and Mr. Howarth ?---Not in that conversation; I have not.

Or at any time when Mr. Sillem or any of the other partners were present ?-No. One word more about the gun-carriages which you were making while the machinery for the Alexandra was being prepared; were those made from drawings?—Yes.

LORD CHIEF BARON. All gun-carriages are made from drawings, are they not?—Yes; everything is made from drawings there.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL. According to the custom of the business in which you are engaged, do drawings for gun-carriages and the like bear the number of the thing that is to be made from them?-Yes; they bear the number of the job.

Of the job, whatever it is?—Yes.

When you had made those gun-carriages from the drawings, did you leave the drawings with your masters?—I left them in the shop; they were there when I left.

Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL (to Sir Hugh Cairns.) Will you produce the drawings of those gun-carriages; you have got the notice to produce them; of the gun-carriages made by the witness at the time when the machinery was in preparation; there were gun-carriages for three guns, a large gun and two small ones. SIR HUGH CAIRNS. We do not produce anything.

Cross-examined by Mr. KARSLAKE:

Can you tell me when you left ?-Three or four months since.

I have a very few questions to ask you about these gentlemen by whom you were employed. They carry on business as engineers and founders on a very large scale, do they not?-Yes.

I believe they have eight hundred or nine hundred workmen employed at a time on their premises?—I dare say, if you take both yards into consideration, there would be more than that.

I believe they make all sorts of machinery ?—Yes.