SENATE.]

Revolutionary Pensions.

[APRIL 11, 1832.

war, with quite as much loss of property and blood; and the amendments were adopted, he could see no good reait had been a subject of frequent inquiry why the militia son why the soldiers of the last war should not be included. were not all placed on the same footing with those pro- There were few who came out of that service, during the vided for by the bill. Gentlemen from most of the States war, who did not leave it in a state of poverty, having have been instructed to see justice, though late, done to been compelled to look to their own means for their sup this class of soldiers, who had been engaged in a contest port. But it was not so with those who came out after for freedom, such as was never witnessed in the world the war. He was of the opinion that the Eastern men before. If these men can show that they have rendered acted correctly in putting a stop to pensions. If these revolutionary services, let them do so. But if the bill is propositions were to be carried out, the bill would empty to be so extended as to reward all, why should not those the treasury. There was a plan, when he came into who were at New Orleans, at Tippecanoe, at Bridgewater, Congress, to pension for three years, giving equal to half and at many other places, be included? It cannot be pay, which would have caused an expenditure of about done. In order to be consistent in its legislation, the $500,000 a year. It was raised in the House to eight Senate must reject all these amendments, and confine the dollars a day, and was so changed as to contemplate an provisions of the bill to revolutionary services. With annual expenditure of two millions. It was always the these views, he would be compelled to vote against all case that, when there was a sparse treasury, Congress these amendments. became suddenly and rigidly economical; but when there Mr. GRUNDY admitted that the rejection of the amend-was plenty of money in the treasury, every one is ready ment would make the legislation of the Senate more con- for a prodigal expenditure. This bill would lead to a sistent than their adoption. A portion of the troops em- heavy expenditure, not for one year only, but for every braced in the amendment of his colleague, were engaged year. He had gone into the war with nine thousand in revolutionary service. And what difference, he asked, pounds of his own money, and, when he came out, he had could there be between those engaged in the revolution- nothing.

ary war on this side the mountains, and those similarly Mr. WHITE said that his friend from New Jersey was engaged on the other side? They who were engaged on right in the supposition that he [Mr. W.] had not offered this side were contending against the British soldiers, his amendment with any view to impede the bill. His while those on the other were fighting against the Indian object was, if the bill was to pass, to make its operation allies of Great Britain. Where was there a difference in just and equal, as regards all portions of the country. If the principle? The people on this side the mountains had the amendment he had offered were adopted, he should been restored to peace and security ten or twelve years not be any more disposed to vote for the bill. He believed before these blessings were attained by those on the other that the bill now was, in toto, false in principle; but, side. Was it just that those who were the first to be although wrong, if it was to pass, he would carry out the visited by peace should have the benefit of the bill, while principle so as to make it apply to all-to the militia of the those who were the longest detained from them should be West as well as to all others. It was not a correct supexcluded? This was, indeed, consistent legislation. He position that this amendment was founded on a principle admitted the difference to be evident between the revolu-distinct from that of the bill.

tionary war and the late war; but this was, on both sides of Those who advocate the amendment think that if the the mountains, the revolutionary war. It was a prolonga-principle of pensioning those who are competent to suption beyond the mountains of the war which was fought port themselves be adopted, the bill should be made still on this side until the peace of 1783. He wished, there- wider. When the treaty of 1783 was made, it restored fore, to know what reason could be assigned for including harmony between Great Britain and the United States, one portion of the troops and excluding the other. Many but it did not put a stop to the Indian war. The princiof those who served under Wayne, Harmar, and Hamtramck, were regular soldiers. He stated it to be his intention to vote for this amendment, and for the whole amendment, if this should be adopted.

ple, therefore, was the same. The war with Great Britain was at an end, but it did not end with the savage allies of Great Britain until 1795. If it was considered right to give pensions to those who were engaged in conflict with Mr. SMITH said he should vote against the amendment, civilized man, it surely was equally so to pension those and, afterwards, against the whole bill. There was a who had the savages to contend with. If one had the difference between the service in the East and that in the misfortune to be taken prisoner, in the contest with civilWest, which operated in his mind against the amendment. ized man, he was treated according to the courtesies of When Congress offered half pay for life, the Eastern civilized warfare. But in the other case, no sooner had members opposed the measure, on the ground of the im- he left his home, than his dwelling and his property were policy of introducing a system of pensioning. It was then left at the mercy of marauding Indians, subject to cruelty proposed to give five years' full pay to the officers in lieu and devastation. He thought that even females had as of half pay for life, and thus to avoid pensions. Now, the good a right to be included in the advantages of the bill, ground seems to be completely changed. The gentleman as those now put there. In the case where civilized man from Tennessee, behind him, [Mr. GRUNDY,] seemed to contended with civilized man, it was very different, from have fallen into an error, when he set up claims for one that where man was compelled to meet the barbarous Inparticular part of the Union. The Eastern soldiers had dian, who spared no age or sex, but gave all, without turned out and fought as bravely as the militia of the distinction, to the scalping knife and tomahawk. He began West. But the fact was, that there had been but very to think that the gentleman from South Carolina [Mr. few militia called out in the East after 1778; and the HAYNE] was correct in saying that the bill ought to be so Southern war was fought after that period. The militia extended as to embrace all. It had been said that the re in that part of the Union were then called out in great volutionary soldiers were paid in depreciated money, and numbers, so that both sides of the mountains were about that this constituted a claim for pensions. So, if persons sold their beef, their pork, or other provisions, for depre

on a par.

In Maryland, the militia were called out in 1777, and ciated money, for a handful of which, after the war, a but few were called afterwards in the East. In New man could not get a breakfast, they surely were as well York, the Connecticut troops did service. After that entitled to sympathy and relief. If the bill is to go out time, there was comparatively peace on this side the of the line of strict military service, it would be found mountains. But the Southern militia were afterwards almost impossible to fix a limit to it. He presumed there called out, and constituted the main force of that section were Senators present who had heard the venerable of country. He was opposed to the bill in principle. If Senator from North Carolina (Mr. Macon) on this floor.

APRIL 11, 1832.]

Appropriation Bill.

[SENATE.

It would indeed be an act of such glaring partiality, as would induce him to wash his hands of the whole bill. He could see no good reason why the hardy sons of freedom, who fought under Wayne, Clarke, Harmar, and Hamtramck, should not receive the same mark of respect and national approbation as those who fought in another part of the country. He had used the phrase "mark of respect," for he considered the object of the bill to be the bestowal of a mark of kindness on those who had not expected to become pensioners as they grew old, and to be treated as a band of paupers hanging on the nation.

He had told the Senate that, during the war in the South, mote communities? This would not be an equal operation. the camp was the only place of safety. If disability from wounds, and actual want, were not to be the limit, and the bill was to go on the principle of mere money, it would take more than the treasury could give to carry its provisions into effect. He wished to do equal justice. Mr. BUCKNER thought the amendment went too far. He was not quite prepared to say that he would not vote for. the bill in its original shape, but he could not help saying that he thought the whole system was wrong. He was not disposed to adopt a pension system beyond those who had been injured in the service of their country. Any thing beyond that, he considered to be bad policy. But as the provisions of the law have been extended, in some degree, beyond this principle, he saw no sufficient reason why this principle or good feeling should not be extended to the militia of that period.

It had been said by gentlemen that this was not so much a matter of grace, favor, or boon, as a matter of right and justice, because a contract had been made with the Government, which the Government had not complied with. His answer was, that if this be a contract, and the claims arise out of this contract, treated as a contract for payment of loss sustained by its failure on the part of the Government, it was an error to treat it as a pension bill. By this bill, then, the injured man is mocked, because that amount is given to him as a grace, which the Government owed him as a debt. If this principle was applicable to troops of the line, it was alike applicable to militia, and every man who applies for the benefit of the provisions of the bill, does but present his debt for payment. Taking it in this light, the Government would thus ascertain when its debts were paid, and when it would be relieved from the endless pressure which had so long existed. But, on the other principle, all claims can never be settled, so as to do ample justice to all.

There was no reason why this mark of respect should be given to the militia of the East, and not to those of the West. The lands which the Government holds in the West are the fruit of their toils. The whole domain of the West was the result of their bravery and toil. But to ask the West to pension men fifteen hundred miles distant, not a dollar of which would ever return to the West, was too much. What was this principle? Let it be exhibited in open day, and shown in its true colors.

On motion of Mr. JOHNSTON, fifteen hundred extra copies of the report of the select committee on the apportionment bill were ordered to be printed.

APPROPRIATION BILL.

The Senate then resumed the consideration of the general appropriation bill.

Mr. HOLMES addressed the Senate for about two hours, in conclusion of his remarks, (as given above.) Mr. SMITH then rose, not to take a part in the discussion, but to express a hope that the Senate would now go on with the appropriation bill, and permit it to pass; reserving whatever discussion was thought proper on the subject under consideration, until the gentleman from Maine should call up his resolution.

His mind had undergone some change in relation to the Mr. SPRAGUE said that, after this suggestion, he would pension law, since he had minutely examined the subject. refrain, at present, from making any observations in reply He had never passed a soldier of the revolution, without to some of the remarks of the Senator from Illinois, with being conscious of a feeling of gratitude and veneration, the understanding that his resolution should be taken up which almost found a vent in tears. But, under the influ-after this bill was disposed of, and that, after he had been ence of such feeling, he did not consider it proper to vote permitted to get his resolution before the Senate, the away money. The judgment of the Senate should not, same latitude of debate would be allowed. on this occasion, be exercised under the dictation of such feelings.

It appeared to him that the amendment of the gentleman from Tennessee went too far. But if the bill were to pass in any form, he saw no reason why its provisions should not apply with as much force to the class of men embraced in the amendment of the gentleman from Illinois, as to those in the original bill. If the patriotism and the privations of those who have lived before us were to be rewarded, to encourage those who were to come after us, he did not think that this principle would be at all changed by the adoption of this amendment. It was the same principle that ran through the original bill, only it was carried further, and gave to others the benefit of its provisions.

The Senate then proceeded to consider the various amendments to the bill; which having gone through with, Mr. SMITH moved to add at the end of the bill a clause, to enable the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of War, and the Secretary of the Navy, to have the papers in their departments arranged and indexed, $2,500 to each department.

Mr. CLAY objected to this amendment as a most extraordinary and useless appropriation of money. He stated that it had never, within his knowledge, taken five minutes to find any document, unless it was, perhaps, an old revolutionary paper. It is a business which properly appertains to the clerks in the office; and here is an appropriation of $10,000 asked for, to do what the present clerks were bound to do.

of twice the amount named in the amendment.

These were the reasons which would induce him to vote Mr. SMITH sent to the Secretary's table a letter from against the amendment of the Senator from Tennessee, the Secretary of State to Mr. Verplanck, of the House of and in favor of that of the Senator from Illinois; and if Representatives, stating the necessity of an appropriation that amendment should be lost, he would vote against the whole bill. To pass the bill without that amendment, Mr. FOOT remarked, that a sentence in the letter now would be an act of national injustice. It would be an act read disclosed the true cause of the confusion which preof injustice to the West. It is not in that region of the vailed in the departments. It was entirely attributable to country that the larger portion of those included in the the removals after the President came into office. Peroriginal bill reside. There are but few in the West of sons of capacity and experience were turned out, and those who participated in the toils of the revolution. others put in their places, who knew not where to look Where, then, would be the great expenditure of money to find necessary papers. The removals in the State Deauthorized by this bill? Was it to be expected that they partment had been numerous; and he instanced, as a conwho made constant sacrifices to keep the treasury full sequence, that a gentleman had been detained here three would consent to make personal sacrifices for the purpose weeks before the clerks could find where his account was of paying pensions to those who live in distinct and re-stated.

Appropriation Bill.--Mission to Guatemala.

Mr. CLAY made some further observations on the subMISSION TO GUATEMALA. ject. It was an extraordinary proceeding at this late pe- Mr. CLAY then rose to ask the attention of the Senate riod of the session, at the moment when we are told of to an appropriation proposed for the diplomatic service, the necessity of passing the appropriation bill through with which he deemed to be wholly unnecessary. It was for expedition, because the clerks are suffering, and the Se- the outfit and salary of a chargé d'affaires at Guatemala. cretary of the Senate has been obliged to raise money on On a former occasion, he had stated to the Senate his behis own credit, to come here for this appropriation, on the lief that the public service did not require us to be repreground that the Secretaries cannot go on with the public sented at that Government. A chargé had been nomibusiness without this additional aid. The law had deter-nated during the present session; no discussion had taken mined the number of clerks in the departments, yet this place on the nomination; and he [Mr. C.] being absent number had been increasing for some years; and now, unwilling to ask for new clerks, the departments ask for a gross sum of money. He requested that the yeas and nays might be taken on this question.

APRIL 12, 1832.]

Mission to Guatemala.

[SENATE.

The yeas and nays were accordingly ordered. by the Senator from Maryland, he could not believe they Mr. SMITH said that if the gentleman from Kentucky amounted to much. The vessel the gentleman spoke of had made any opposition to the nomination of the chargé as having gone from St. Blas, went from North to South d'affaires to Central America when it was under con- America; for, if his geographical recollections were corsideration, he doubted very much how he should have rect, St. Blas was not in South but in North America: voted on the question. As it was, however, the nomina- and if this vessel was successful in that indirect voyage, it tion having prevailed, he did not very well see how the was one of those successes that might have happened for Senate could avoid making the appropriation to carry its the time, but could not always be calculated on. But, as own act into effect. Under the circumstances of the case, he had said in the commencement, he felt himself bound he felt himself bound to vote for the appropriation. The to vote for the salary, as the Senate had, by its own act, gentleman from Kentucky had stated, very correctly, that created the office. He wished the Senator from KenMr. Rochester's time expired in 1828, and that Guatemala tucky had made his opposition to the appointment when was then in a very distracted condition; but he believed the nomination was before the Senate. Had he done so, the gentleman was mistaken in his statements as to the Mr. T. did not believe the nomination would have been value of the trade. One of his constituents had sent a confirmed. cargo to that country, on which he made a profit of ten Mr. HOLMES expressed himself as much gratified that or twenty thousand dollars, he did not recollect which. his old fashioned sentiments had been so well sustained by There was a profitable circuitous trade carried on by our the chairman of the Committee on Foreign Relations, merchants in that region. Vessels that did not find a good [Mr. TAZEWELL.] He should begin to think himself a market at Chili or Peru, went on to St. Blas, in Central very correct and consistent politician. For example, America. With respect to the condition of the country, when the Panama mission was under consideration, he Mr. S. believed it was more settled than heretofore. So thought it inexpedient, and voted in favor of the resolufar as he could collect from the newspapers, that Govern- tions presented by the Committee on Foreign Relations, ment had become somewhat organized. Some little dis- in opposition to the measure. When the only affirmative turbance in that country was to be expected. They were proposition was on the table, the creation of the ministers, always quarrelling in South America; but that made no he voted, with the chairman of that committee, against difference to our commerce. If we waited until all the the measure; but when the bill came from the House of South American republics were in a state of peace, it Representatives, after the officers had been created, makwould be long before we should send a minister there. ing an appropriation for their salaries, he [Mr. H.] gave Mr. TAZEWELL found himself very much in the the only consistent vote-he voted to pay them. Then, situation of the Senator from Maryland. He felt con- like the Senator from Virginia on the present occasion, strained to vote for the appropriation to pay the salary, as he did not feel himself at liberty to refuse the salaries the Senate, by its own act, had created the office which after the Senate had created the offices; and, now, he it was attempted, by a side-blow, to lop off. The Senate must inform the Senator from Kentucky that he should was not at liberty to refuse the appropriation for an office vote on the same principle. He regretted, exceedingly, its own vote had assisted in establishing within the pre- that he did not know, while the nomination was under consent session. How far would the gentleman from Ken-sideration, that the country to which the minister was to tucky carry out his principle? Would he apply it, if, in be sent was in a distracted and unsettled state; that our his opinion, necessary, to the salaries of offices created commerce with it was inconsiderable; and that it was inby law? And yet this would be the effect, if the motion habited by nothing but negroes and Indians. As the of that gentleman prevailed. In the present case, the minister was going to a country so unfavorably described, President had nominated, the Senate had confirmed, and to reside among negroes and Indians, he certainly thereby creating the office, and the House of Representa- ought to be paid, and well paid, too; and he should, theretives, acting on this creation of office, had sent to the fore, vote for the appropriation. Senate an appropriation to pay the salary which it was Mr. TAZEWELL observed that nothing in his course then proposed to strike out. Mr. T. could not consent could authorize a comparison between him and the Seto sanction a principle of this sort. When the nomination nator from Maine, either as regarded consistency or any was before the Senate, he entertained the same view with thing else. The remarks of that gentleman, however, regard to it as expressed by the Senator from Kentucky; called for a reply on another point. There was a great he could not see any reason for sending a minister to this difference between the Panama mission and the present Government, if a Government it was at all. But, inas- one. If the gentleman from Maine would turn to the remuch as there had been a minister there for many years port of the Committee on Foreign Relations, made on the previous, and not a single suggestion was made before the occasion referred to, he would find that the main difficulty committee as to the inutility of the mission, he did not urged in the report was the unconstitutionality of the deem it necessary to call upon the Executive for addi- mission. The committee believed that Congress possessed tional information. Mr. T. did not concur with the Sena- no authority to send ministers to a Congress of nations. tor from Maryland, in the opinion that the trade with Differing, therefore, with a majority of the Senate, he Central America was valuable. Much, Mr. T. said, would had voted against the measure, in all its stages; first depend upon the limits of the country. His information against the creation of the offices. The House of Rewas, perhaps, not so extensive as that of the Senator from presentatives, concurring with the majority, made the Maryland; but, as far as he was informed, if the country appropriation to pay the salaries of the ministers that was comprehended within the limits of the captain-gene- had been appointed; and he, for one, believing that ralship of Guatemala, it contained only two ports--Omoa, the Executive and Senate had no constitutional right and one other port, nearer to Guatemala. Our principal to institute the mission, voted against it. That was one trade, Mr. T. said, was with Omoa, a place settled almost difference between the Panama mission and the present entirely by negroes and Indians, and notoriously so sickly one; for no one, for a moment, would suppose that the that it had not been the permanent residence of white President and Senate had not a right to send a minister to men since the Spaniards possessed it. From that port, Central America. The gentleman from Maine had strangesaid Mr. T., we get indigo and cochineal; and that, he ly mistaken him, in supposing him to say that Guatemala believed, was the amount of the trade. Our exports to was inhabited only by negroes and Indians. If he said so, that country must be something, of course, or we could he begged leave to take it back. He spoke only of the not import from there; but their amount he could not sickly part of Omoa as being inhabited by negroes and Instate. With respect to the coasting voyages alluded to dians. Guatemala, like all other parts of South America,

VOL. VIII.49

SENATE.]

Mission to Guatemala.

was peopled with the three races of whites, blacks, and

Indians.

[APRIL 12, 1832.

trine of the other side, a minister once sent can never be recalled. He believed that the commerce with Guatemala was very trifling. The precious metals which had been referred to, came from Peru, through Guatemala; but it was well known that the Guatemala mines had not been worked for some time. He reminded the Senator from Virginia that there had been a bitter contest between Mexico and Guatemala concerning the possession of a province which stretches into North America.

Mr. BENTON rose to make some observations on the main point of objection-the alleged insignificancy of the trade between the United States and Guatemala. It was alleged that this commerce was too inconsiderable to merit the mission of a chargé d'affaires; that the profits, in fact, of the whole commerce would not defray the expenses of the mission. This, Mr. B. was very certain, was a great mistake. He held in his hand the document of the Mr. BIBB made a few observations in opposition to the commerce and navigation of the United States for the year motion, expressing his hope that what had been done in 1850-the last that was printed; and, from that document, this case by the President, with the advice and consent the commerce in question appeared to be infinitely su- of the Senate, would not be reversed in this manner. perior to what it had been represented to be. According He considered the matter as now placed beyond the conto the allegations of gentlemen, we obtained nothing from trol of the Senate. The right of appointing to foreign that country but a few dyestuffs, and the exports were missions, and of receiving foreign ministers, he viewed as an treated as nothing. Mr. B. said the document in his exclusive right appertaining to the President. In the prehand presented a very different picture. Mr. B. then sent instance, the Senate had confirmed the nomination, read from the document, to show that the whole imports and the other House having appropriated the means, it from Guatemala were $302,820; and of this amount, about must be palpable that the Senate could not do otherwise $140,000 consisted of gold and silver coin and bullion. than conform to circumstances. It had been asked how The domestic exports were $138,000, which he said were a mission could ever be got rid of. By Executive disfour times as great as the domestic exports to Russia, and cretion. And if the President act wrong for once, he is eight times as great as they were to Prussia. The foreign accountable for that wrong. He was disposed to give to exports sent from the United States were $110,000; so every Executive a fair support, unless it could be shown that, if there was any thing in the balance of trade, here that there existed palpable and gross abuse. It was askwas a balance of about $50,000 in favor of the United ed if any functionary from Guatemala was in this country. States. Mr. B. thought this commerce was well worth He believed not, but we must begin. The commerce attending to now; and as Guatemala was a young and a was trifling, it was said, but it may be increased; and if growing country, it must soon be much more considera- the country was unsettled, there was stronger reason for ble, if cherished and preserved. Mr. B. would, there- sending a minister to protect American interests and profore, cordially vote in favor of the appropriation for defray-perty. ing the expenses of the mission.

Mr. CHAMBERS gave the reasons which would comMr. HOLMES made a brief explanation, disavowing pel him to vote against the motion. He regretted that it any design to misrepresent what had fallen from the Senator from Virginia.

had been made at this time. If the statements of the Senator had been made at another time, they would doubtMr. CLAY stated that he did not see much in the ob- less have influenced his vote, and probably the nomination jection which had been made to his motion. The charge would have met with a different fate. But he could not, was yet in this country, he had not gone on his mission; after passing on the nomination, agree to reject the apand if, in his journey to the Atlantic cities, and the pre-propriation for the salary. He hoped the Senator from parations for departure, he had incurred any expenses, Kentucky would consent to withdraw his motion, and he should feel no unwillingness to reimburse him. The thus relieve him from the unpleasant predicament of being salary appropriated is yet unearned. He would presently compelled to vote against it. He believed the mission to refer to two missions which have for some time been of be unnecessary and improper, yet he should now be com no use; and he would inquire how these agents were to pelled to give his vote in accordance with those who enbe recalled. He alluded to the agents for claims in Paris tertained the belief that it was both necessary and proper. and in London. There are but two modes of recalling Mr. FORSYTH spoke briefly in opposition to the mothese agents. The President may send for them; but if tion. He was of the opinion that to refuse the appropria he should not, they can only be recalled by the refusal tion so immediately after confirming the nomination, would of Congress to make the appropriations for them. In expose the Senate to some censure. It was said that this the present case, as the agent had not gone, no injury mission was unnecessary. The nomination was made to could be done to him by the refusal of the appropriation. replace the minister appointed last session. There had He stated that when this nomination was acted on, it been plenty of time to inquire into the necessity. Why happened to be on one of the two or three days in which had there been no call for information, after what the he had been prevented, this session, from attending to his President had stated on the subject in his annual message? duties, through indisposition. Here an office may be ter- [Here Mr. F. read an extract from the message on the minated by withholding the appropriation which had not subject of our relations with Guatemala.] He thought been earned; or the President may prevent the charge the mission was necessary, and that the appropriation from leaving the country. It would have been better ought not to be refused, without a sufficient reason being had these objections been made when the nomination given. The Senator from Kentucky had remarked on was under consideration; but he did not think that it was the increase of diplomatic agents. He did not undernow too late. He believed that there was at present no stand that the remark had been made by way of censure. Government at Guatemala. Was it represented by any But, if it was, it might be easy to show that savings had agent here? Was there any chargé from Guatemala in been effected by the present administration, by changing this country? The last minister from that country, a the grades of ministers. Two missions had been cut most excellent and enlightened man, was Mr. Canas, with down. whom the treaty had been made. Since that time, a bitter war had been raging. Where, then, should be the difficulty of acting, now that the minister is here, to reverse the nomination, taking care to reimburse him for his ex-ministration. penditures? If there was even a moral obligation to send Mr. FORSYTH. There then was but one-Mexico. him, now, in case it should be found proper to do so, can But the President had stated his intention to cut down that the mission ever be terminated? According to the doc- to Colombia. The increased expenditure had been attri

Mr. CLAY. What two?

Mr. FORSYTH. Chili and Mexico.
Mr. CLAY. Chili was cut down under the last ad-