that measure which they were now called on to repeal. Mr. Monck said, that the Bank of Eng. land note was the worst for circulation, as it brought with it the dreadful hazards of forgery. The parliament and the public were anxious to return to a metallic currency, and the scarcity of gold was the alleged difficulty. If gold was so scarce, silver was not. What objection could there be to leaving it to the bankers to pay in either as it suited them? That there were too many notes in circulation, would prove but an awkward confession, and that those who had issued them were not entitled to any confidence from the public. It had been said, that there was something approaching to mutiny among the country bankers. In his opinion, if any thing approaching to mutiny existed, it was among the people who held the notes, and who flocked in with them to demand gold. There had been meetings in Manchester and other places, where the mechanics had resolved not to take one-pound notes of country bankers. He highly approved of the conduct of the country bankers, and could not conscientiously give his support to the amend ment. Mr. Brougham said, he could not go to the vote, without stating his opinion with regard to the amendment. With his right hon. friend, the member for Waterford, he had hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would have enabled him to vote for the clause, as he had lent his support to the bill, and he did not feel the least disposition to give the measure any opposition calculated, as he thought it was, to promote the restoration of the crippled commerce of this country, and guard it from similar convulsions, by restraining the issue of one and two pound notes, and restoring, at that favourable time, a healthy state of the currency. He had listened attentively to the arguments of the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer, and also to the more cogent statements of the right hon. the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; but, like his right hon. friend, his mind was made up not to vote for the clause; the doing which was quite consistent, in his opinion, with the support he had given to the bill. He considered the clause as founded on principles of an opposite nature from those on which he understood the measure to be framed, and on which he supported it; and, because the fclause was opposed in its spirit to the original measure, he opposed it. The arguments in favour of the measure had been brought to a short issue, by the clear and candid statement of the hon. member for Taunton. That hon. member did not object to the principle of the bill, and did not proceed, like the hon. member for Bramber, to oppose the bill, and afterwards support it, because that hon. member thought a paper circulation a benefit, and had no wish to see such a circulation put a stop to: that had not been said by the hon. member for Taunton; but he had agreed with the right hon. gentleman opposite, as to the principle of the bill, and had only objected to it on account of the time, saying that the measure was brought forward too soon; that things should be left to themselves for some longer period; and that the remedy should be postponed for a year. Now, what was his (Mr. Brougham's) answer to that? Why this that if the Bank were told that, at the end of a year, such a measure would be adopted; if they received a year's notice to prepare for the measure; they would delay their preparations they would not set their houses, or rather their banks, in order, but would go on to the end of the year in the hope that something would turn up, which would call paper again into circulation; that government would once more lend its sanction to the measure, and the country would again have small notes to as great an extent as ever. His argument, which applied to the principle of the bill, applied to the eight months proposed by the new clause. He said, he would not give the Bank of England till the 10th of October, on the same principle that he would not give all the banks twelve months; and he therefore, had, on the same ground, supported the bill and must now oppose the clause. Another argument which had been urged in favour of the clause, in the strongest manner, by the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, was the limited state of the circulation at present, and the distress caused by the small notes having been withdrawn. The bankers in the country had confined their issues, and out of that much and wide-spread suffering which they had occasioned, one benefit-one only benefit could arise; and that was that the measure which at other times might have dreadful effects, might now be with safety applied, when four-fifths, or even five sixths of the paper currency was with drawn, and gold was coming into circulation; and now, he would say, was the very time for carrying the measure; for, by postponing it, they would only again force out paper, and prevent gold from coming into circulation. That was his argument in favour of the measure; but now he was met by this ill-omened clause -a clause enabling the Bank of England to fill up the void made in the paper circulation, by other paper, so that it would be, at the end of some months, brought back to the same state of little else but paper, in which the currency existed before the distress began. The defence of the clause, the necessity for it-all that the right hon. gentleman hoped to effect by it, was to fill up the void which had been caused, by what had been described as a combination-using a word, he supposed by an oversight, which was as offensive as any which could be used of persons who exercised, in his opinion, that most useful profession, a country banker [hear, hear!]. That void, then, which had been caused by this combination, if so it must be called, of the country bankers, was to be filled up, by allowing the Bank of England to issue its notes until the void was filled up that had been occasioned by this recent combination. But, would the Bank of England then stop? When it got this power, might it not go on stamping and signing till it circulated as much as it could desire? It was to fill up the void occasioned by the combination of the last fortnight, that they were called on by this clause to allow other paper to be continued in circulation, which was against the very argument which he had urged in support of the bill. The hon. member for Taunton did not differ with him as to the principle, but they differed as to time; and he had taken up his ground for the defence of the bill on the principle, that there could be no time better than the present; but this ground had been cut from under him, by the last, "the unkindest cut of all;" for it proceeded from the fathers of that measure which he had lent his humble efforts to support. He wished to say a few words in answer to what had been insinuated to be a change between his present opinions and those which he had formerly held. Now, he had always maintained, that it was desirable that paper and gold should exist together, but he had never denied or doubted that they could not exist together. There had been no modification of his opinions. He still thought, that that currency was the best which consisted partly of paper, convertible at pleasure into gold, and partly of gold; but expe. rience had taught him, that a paper made by law absolutely convertible into gold, was not sufficient to keep down the paper to a proper level, and to ensure the country against a paper circulation from running into excess. The private paper might become of excessive circulation, although convertible into gold. Although large notes might circulate together with coin, small notes could not. Ten, twenty, fifty, or hundred-pound notes might circulate with one or two sovereign pieces; but, the moment you introduced into the paper circulation one or two pound notes, the one or two sovereign pieces would disappear. They could no more circulate together, than bad sovereigns could circulate with good. The hon. member for Taunton had said, that a difficulty existed in the circulation of country bank notes with coin, and that whilst the Bank of England notes would keep in circulation with the metallic currency, the country bank notes would not. Now, his opinion was, that although there might be greater facility in keeping up a joint circulation between Bank of Englank notes and coin, than between coin and country notes, yet the joint circulation of the latter could not be maintained; for the paper would remain, and the gold would vanish. He had understood, that a certain bill was about to pass elsewhere. It might not be quite regular to advert to the proceedings of the other House of parliament, but he hoped the importance of the subject under their consideration would apologize for any breach of order of which he might be guilty. He had heard that it was intended to introduce a clause into that bill, for the purpose of establishing branch banks, and it was said that the establishment of such banks would be injurious to the interests of the existing country banks; but, he could see nothing in the formation of branch banks to affect the interest of individuals connected with country banking. It was true, that the establishment of branch banks would operate as a restriction on country banks; but it was a restriction which would lead to sound and wholesome effects. The establishment of branch banks would prevent individuals from embarking in the banking business without means or experience to conduct their concerns; and, them forward. If they took fright, and suffered their opinion to be swayed by others, while they had to perform a great public trust, then could they never hope to benefit the country or satisfy themselves. He hoped he should not be considered as saying any thing harsh of ministers when he said, that any further departure from the principles proposed to the House, would entail on the government the just odium of the country. Enough, too much, had already been conceded, and he hoped and trusted that no further concessions would be made, as they would only have the effect of exposing the weakness of the government, and of giving encouragement to doubt and alarm.-Before he concluded, he wished to add a few observations on the proposed extension of time in favour of the Bank of England. One of the greatest blessings that would have attend in this respect, who could deny that, by the formation of those banks, much good would not be produced? He had heard some persons express alarm on the occasion, and say "Are you aware that you are about to establish most formidable rivals to country bankers by the formation of branch banks?" But, he could not perceive the danger which was thus apprehended. Passing over, however, the apprehensions of such persons, he came to that portion of the proposed measure, from which he was obliged to withhold his assent. He alluded to the clause proposed by the right hon. gentleman relative to the extension of time as regarded the Bank of England. The House should look carefully to the probable effect of allowing the Bank of England to be exempted from the operations of the proposed law for the term of eight months. Poor persons who got hold of one-pounded the introduction of the measures, as Bank of England notes would keep them in their possession in the same way as they would keep the notes of country bankers; but could they turn those notes into cash with the like facility? The attention of government should be particularly directed to this subject. Would each branch bank be prepared to give cash for all Bank of England notes, which might be presented there, or was every branch bank only to be accountable for its own issues? He felt the more anxious on this point, because he understood that in Ireland, where the system of branch banks was at present in operation, the question had been tried, and the result had been, that the branch banks in that country did not pay notes on demand, excepting such as they had respectively issued. Now this was Now this was a very great grievance, and one which he hoped would be provided for in the proposed bill. Notes should be made payable, not only at the particular places at which they might be issued, but at every place where branch banks were established. The hardship would be very severe on poor persons who might have to go twenty or perhaps forty miles before they could get cash for their notes. This was a part of the subject to which he again hoped that the framers of the new measures would pay due attention. The way to legislate for such measures was to legislate openly and fearlessly. Now, he could not help fearing, not that the government wished to conceal their views, but that they did not evince sufficient determination in bringing originally proposed, would have been, that by the withdrawing of the one and two pound notes, the crime of forgery would have been deprived of one of its principal facilities; but who could question, that the moment those notes of the Bank of England again appeared, forgery would ensue, and that we should have to witness the renewal of those scenes of horror from which the feeling mind involuntarily shrunk. He had himself seen, in the course of his professional avocations, no less than thirty persons tried for the crime of forgery at one assizes; and what security would be offered, that those heart-rending scenes would not occur again? It was said, that those notes were not intended to go into general circulation-that they were to be confined to the country bankers; but was it not proposed to issue Bank of England notes, through the medium of branch banks? Who would take upon him to say that the same scenes of horror and distress to which he had before alluded, would not be again revived? In a former stage of the bill, he had given it his support, from a thorough conviction of its tendency to allay the panic produced by a series of disasters, a recurrence of which he hoped the country would never be called upon to witness; but, he must withhold that support from the amendment proposed by the right hon. gentleman opposite. Mr. Huskisson said, it had not been his intention to have troubled the House with any observations of his at so late a period of the debate; nor should he have arisen sudden demands to which they were liable. For himself he could answer, that he never would desire to see more pound notes in circulation than there were when the prohibition by which notes were forbidden to be stamped took effect; but he must say, that we were bound not to be unprepared for an emergency; and who could tell but there might be, at no very remote period, an occasion to call for that aid which it was the duty of government to keep in reserve? The hon. and learned gentleman had asked, was it provided that the Bank of England, in the event of their establishing branch banks, should pay their notes on demand at their respective branches? He had no hesitation in assuring the hon. and learned gentleman, that it was certainly the intention of government, that in those districts where branch banks were to be established, the Bank of England should not be allowed to issue notes, without being liable to be called upon to pay instantly in gold on demand. Indeed, without such a clause, it was quite impossible that a salutary or absolute restraint could be imposed on at all, were it not that he felt himself called upon to explain something that had fallen from the hon. and learned gentleman who had just sat down. The hon. and learned gentleman seemed to apprehend, that there existed a difference between the Bank of England and other banks, as to the tendency of their issuing notes, and that the Bank of England had not the same interest with the country banks in regulating their issues. It was only on one principle that he had given his concurrence to the proposition. A country bank issued notes for the supply of the district in which it carried on its operations. It wrote to the Bank of England for gold whenever it had occasion for gold to pay its demands. But the Bank of England was obliged to pay all its notes on demand in gold itself. For this reason the Bank of England had not the same motives for over-issues that the country banks had. When the exchanges enabled the Bank to accumulate a quantity of gold, they were anxious to withdraw their notes, and to supply the country and metropolis with gold, and to pay the notes of the country bankers in gold. It being, how-those who issued the notes. He would ever, the interest of the country bankers to prevent such a measure, and not that of the Bank of England, he gave his consent to the amendment. It was a fact no longer disputed, that there was a great diminution of country bank notes in circulation since the alarm created. He was ready to agree with the hon. and learned gentleman, that there was already a considerable diminution in the number of one-pound notes; but all those above five pound country notes. That diminution would increase; but he, for one, would not wish to see the bank-notes too suddenly withdrawn from circulation. He would not anticipate how rapidly the country bank notes might be withdrawn ; neither would he insist, that there was not a disposition to take them out of circulation as speedily as possible, in the minds of some. From what cause such notions were entertained, he would not now inquire, but he was persuaded that a gradual progress to attain the object sought by the measure proposed was the most likely to lead to beneficial results. During the late panic, a vast quantity of gold had been issued from the Bank, which was still in the country, for the state of the exchanges rendered it impolitic to export it. This gold was now in the hands of the country bankers, not to pay off their onepound notes, but reserved to answer those go a little further, and call the attention of the House to the difficulties in which the Bank of England were placed, with regard to their large notes. The Bank was obliged to pay not only the small notes, but all the notes above 5l., whenever a demand for gold was made. Now, what was the state of the country banks? They were obliged, of course, to pay the one pounds were made payable only in London. [Cries of "no, no," from several members.] He understood this to be the case. It certainly had been stated by the member for Staffordshire, and he considered him good authority, that, in many of the counties, the large notes were not payable on demand in those counties but only at the banking-houses of their agents in London. This amounted almost to an absolute refusal to pay, as the inconvenience and risk of sending them to the metropolis was such, that it was seldom carried into effect. Now, if this was the case, was it proper that the country should be left in such a state? It was the duty of government and of the legislature to provide a remedy, and to watch narrowly the conduct of the country bankers, in case an attempt should be made to withdraw all the small notes. If the small notes should be withdrawn, and the country bankers were not obliged Mr. Hume then declared his intention to move the introduction of two clauses into the bill. One giving a summary power to magistrates to compel bankers to pay their notes in cash. Every act of parliament relating to banks, down to the 37th George 3rd, contained a clause to that effect. The other clause would go to compel bankers to deposit in the hands of certain commissioners, funds to the amount of the small notes issued by them. It would, he thought, greatly check overissues if these commissioners were empowered to convert the stock, so in their custody, into money, for the discharge of the bankers notes, such a measure would produce great confidence. He was likewise anxious that the bankers should be required to pay their notes in the several places where they might be issued. The currency could not be said to be settled on a convenient footing, if persons were obliged to travel up to London to procure cash for their notes. to pay the large notes-if they were to say to the farmer, or tradesman, or mechanic, in case of any run upon them "We are not obliged to pay you here, you may go to London and receive the amount;" what would be the state of that district? Why, the greatest confusion must follow, if the people were not only without the small notes, but could get no value for those of five pounds and upwards. It was absolutely necessary to provide a substitute to meet the danger, and he could see none so likely to succeed as the one proposed by his right hon. friend. God forbid that he should suppose any of the country bankers would have recourse to such a step, but the safest way certainly was to put such a course of proceeding entirely out of their power. The measure was one that involved a great deal, and it therefore became the duty of parliament to watch its progress, and examine its details. The directors of the Bank of England had no wish to issue one-pound notes. They ought not to put them out. He trusted that they would not; but, at the same time, it was proper that they should have the power, in order to prevent such a crisis as that which had so lately taken place. So long as the exchanges continued favourable, there would be no occasion for their issuing small notes; and, in case of the exchanges turning against this country, the Bank would find it necessary to contract the issue both of their small and large notes, in order to prevent a drain on their treasure. confidently trusted that this power would not be abused, and he hoped that the House and the nation at large would see the propriety of the measure proposed by his majesty's ministers. He The committee divided: Ayes 187. Noes 24. Majority 163. Mr. Hudson Gurney said, that if the clauses proposed by the hon. member for Aberdeen were adopted, they would go to extinguish the small circulation altogether; as no banker, in his sober senses, as things now stood, would under them issue a note. The bill was reported, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Thursday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE OF PRIVILEGES-LIABILITY OF MEMBERS ΤΟ SERVE ON JURIES.] Mr. Bennett said, he wished to obtain information from the Speaker to guide him in the situation in which he stood. He had, in pursuance of the orders of the House, to attend a committee to-morrow morning, and he was also summoned as a juror in Westminster-hall. Now, how was it possible for him to obey their orders, and at the same time discharge his duty to his country in the situation of juror? He was at a loss how to proceed under these circumstances, and he threw himself on the Speaker for the benefit of his advice. The Speaker said, the House was aware that this very question had been referred to the consideration of a committee of privileges, which had not yet made their report. The only answer he could give at present to the question 2 T |