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of postponing discussion on this subject for which at one time or other must, if the the present. I can assure the House danger were not

not sufficiently provided on the part of her Majesty's Government, against, become perilous to the peace of that every

effort will be made on our part Europe. But at this time I have only this to maintain the general peace; and I can observation to make,-I observe that in also assure the House that it will be only the Senate and Parliament of Turin it is upon principles that are consistent with supposed that the sympathies of this counthe dignity and welfare of Europe.

try as regards Italy have of late become LORD JOHN RUSSELL said: I am impaired and weakened. Now, Sir, it is very glad that my noble Friend the Member my firm persuasion that no war, if it arose, for Tiverton has made these inquiries. I by whatever triumph it were attended was quite sure that he would make those whether a war on the part of the Italian inquiries in a spirit which would at once people unassisted, or whether a war of the tend to the preservation of peace; which Italian people assisted by a great Power, would be becoming his position, and be for would bring such advantages to Italy, or the interests of Europe. And now, my would be so fraught with benefit in the noble Friend having made those inquiries, future of Italy, as the pacific arrangeI congratulate the House upon the answer ments which may be made with the great which they have elicited. It was a matter Powers of Europe. It is, therefore, from of great anxiety to know, in the first place, no diminution or weakening of my symwhether Her Majesty's Government took pathy for the Italian people who have been that view of their position, that they were suffering, but it is, on the contrary, from a in a favourable situation to use their in- warm desire to see them prosper, that I fluence, and to give their advice to the express my opinion that they ought not to Powers between whom these differences stake their future happiness on war, have arisen to tell both France and that they should use every effort, and give Austria what was, in their calm and de- every facility to enable France, Austria, liberate view, the situation of the affairs of Great Britain, and any other Powers who Europe. I rejoice to find that Her Majesty's may take part in these proceedings to Government have taken that view of their arrive at a pacification which shall promoto position. I think it was an advantage the happiness and welfare of the Italian which was not to be foregone. But, in the people. I have no doubt this House will next place, we have heard from the right think it right to refrain from making further hon. Gentleman not only that declaration, observations. but that advantages have already flowed Motion agreed to ; House in Committee from the interposition which has taken of Supply. place; that it is the intention of those great Powers to evacuate the Roman territory that it is also the intention of Her

SUPPLY.-NAVY ESTIMATES. Majesty's Government, through Lord

CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE. Cowley, to interpose at Vienna with such influence as in their opinion may be most

(In the Committee.) conducive to the general peace. Now, Sir,

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: Sir, I now I shall expect from the calm sagacity and rise to state the views and intentions of intelligent prudence of Lord Cowley every- Her Majesty's Government on that subject thing which diplomacy can effect. Of which touches more closely, perhaps, than course, I do not wish to say anything any other, the national pride of English. as to the terms upon which the negotia- men and the safety and welfare of Engtions are to be conducted. With regard land. And, Sir, I can assure the Comto the terms which may be fit to be ac- mittee that I approach the discharge of cepted by France and Austria, it is for the duty which now devolves upon me with those powers to decide, and no doubt their feelings of the greatest anxiety. I cannot honour will be sufficiently guarded in the but feel that the public interest and attention advice which may be given them. But have of late been directed to the state of there is another country, with respect to the navy, and that therefore I am called which I would wish to make one, and only upon to fulfil this duty under more than one, observation. It has frequently fallen ordinary degree of responsibility. I shall to my lot—it has frequently appeared to be obliged to trespass on the attention of me to be my duty—to call the attention of the Committee with considerable details; this House to the state of Italy, as a state but I trust I shall receive that forbear. ance without which it would be very I venture to offer some explanations with difficult to lay before them with clearness regard to the mode in which these large the views which it will be my duty to ex- sums are expended for the public service. plain, and the intentions which on the part It will be in the recollection of those of the Government I have to announce. Members, especially of those who are api

Before, Sir, I proceed to explain the to refer to their favourite year 1835-that Estimates which it will be my duty to sub- in that year the Navy Estimates had mit to the consideration of the Committee fallen to little more than £4,000,000 I hope the Committee will not think that I (£4,434,700), while the number of men am unduly or inappropriately occupying voted was 26,500 seamen and marines. their time if I venture to enter into some ex. At that time, it must be remembered, planation of the gradual increase in the there were none of the expenses of a steam amount of the Navy Estimates, and of the navy. I have already said that that is a great amount which those Estimates have very favourite year with the economists : attained. The hon. Gentleman who has but I am very much disposed to think that been prevented addressing the House (Mr. it would have been better for the country W. Williams) had given notice that he if the Navy Estimates had never been would move to refer these Estimates to a allowed to fall to that low amount. I beSelect Committee. I am bound to say lieve that they were then lower than was that the hon. Gentleman intimated to me, consistent with the interesis of the public a short time before the Speaker left the service. Certainly they did not remain at chair, that it was not his intention to pro- that amount ; for, by 1845 they had risen ceed with that Motion, and I believe his to £7,000,000, and the number of men only motive in rising a few minutes ago voted had risen to 40,000 seamen and was simply for the purpose of making a marines. This gradual increase went on similar announcement to the House. from year to year, and in 1848 it led to the

MR. W. WILLIAMS.-Not exactly. I appointment of a Select Committee, prewished to say that I should not interfere sided over with great ability, by Lord with your proposal of a vote for men and Seymour, which investigated the whole of pay.

our expenditure under the heads of Army, Sir JOHN PAKINGTON: That is the Navy, and Ordnance, in the closest possible same thing in substance. I feel no sur- manner. The hon. Member for Lambeth prise that it should be the desire of the hon. himself must allow that if he had sucGentleman to refer those Estimates to a ceeded in persuading the House to refer Select Committee. The amount of the these Estimates to the Committee which Estimates for the present year, 1858-9, is he proposes to move for, he could not have no less than £3,851,371. The whole hoped for a more searching inquiry into Estimates which it will be my duty to move our expenditure under these beads than for the ensuing year, 1859.60, are so con. was entered into by this Committee. The siderably increased as to be no less than result of that inquiry was that the Navy £9,813,181. There is in round numbers Estimates were reduced, and in the followan increase on the Estimates for the pre-ing year they did not exceed the amount sent year of about £1,000,000. It will of £6,000,000. They afterwards went on be my duty, before I sit down, to offer to slightly increasing, but they did not rise the House an explanation of that additional above £6,000,000 until 1852. Between that million ; but there remains the very large year, however, and the present year there sum of nearly £9,000,000 for the current is a great difference, and I desire to enter year, with regard to which I think it na- into a comparison of the expenditure of the tural the public should feel a great desire two years, which, I trust, will satisfy the for further information. When they are House and the public that the great incalled upon to furnish these very large sums crease is owing to causes over which we from year to year, it is very natural that have had no control. I name the year 1852-3 the public should desire to be informed, and for two reasons :-first, because I was they have a right to expect that they will in office then, and consequently am more be informed on these points-namely, that familiar with the expenditure of that year, they derive the full advantages of these and also because it was the last before the immense sums being expended, and that expenditure of the country became seriMinisters are not asking for more than the ously affected by the late war with Russia. public service requires. I think, therefore, The year 1858-9 is again a year of peace, that I shall only be discharging my duty if -if not of entire peace, at least undisturbed by any war or by any great prepara- | crease of 57 per cent. In 1852-3 it was tion for war. In the year 1852-3, the £882,495, this year it is £1,389,742 Navy Estimates were £5,835,588 ; in the This increase is clearly owing to the great present year they have risen to £8,851,371, additions which have been made to our being an increase of no less than steam navy.

The items under the head of £3,016,783 or 51 per cent. Both being Miscellaneous have been increased in the years of peace, it is natural and fair that same manner ; but I will not detain the the House should desire some explanation House by going over all these details. I of the great difference between them, and think I have referred to the cause of the I hope to be able to state such causes as great increase in all these Votes between will satisfy even the hon. Member for Lam- the two years I have referred to, and I beth, that the increase has been forced hope that the explanation I have now given upon ns, and has not been caused by the will be satisfactory to the House and to extravagance of any Government, or by the country, and will show that the causes the mismanagement of any particular Min. of this increase have arisen not from any ister. I will take first the item of wages extravagauce on the part of the Executive of seamen and marines. In 1858-9 this Government or of the naval Department, but item is £2,401,599 ; in 1852-3, it was that they were causes beyond our control, £1,543,025, being an increase of 55% per and rendered necessary by the course of cent. This is an item of increase with events. As some further illustration of regard to which there can be no objec- the caụses of this augmentation in the cost tion, unless you object to the policy of of our navy, the House will perhaps allow increasing the number of men ; because, me to compare the cost of manning sailing the number of men being increased the and steam vessels in the years 1852-3 and amount of wages is necessarily increased. 1858-9. In 1852 the average pay of all The next item is the cost of provisions, ranks of officers and men was £39 14s. 8d.; and by an accidental rise in the price in 1858-9 the average has risen to £43 2s., of provisions the increase of this item being an increase of £3 8s. 4d. per man. is in a greater ratio than was to be ex. In 1852-3 it required a complement of 970 pected from the increase of the number of officers and men to man the Britannia, a men. It has risen from £544,507 to first-rate sailing ship, and the cost of that £1,027,357, the increase being 88per ship was £26,693 yearly. It requires cent. I ought to have added, with regard 1,100 officers and men to man the Marlto the increase of the number of men, that borough, a first-rate steam vessel of the since 1852-3 the cost of the Coastguard has present day, and her cost annually is been added to the Navy Estimates, being | £35,248. The Committee will therefore nearly 8,000 additional men to be provided see how enormously increased is the exfor-and also that during the intervening pense of the ship nominally of the same years the pay and allowance of the navy rating. Take the frigates. The Arethusa, bad considerably increased. The cost of a 50-gun sailing frigate of 1852-3, rethe Coastguard and the Royal Naval quired 500 men, and cost annually £14,585. Coast Volunteers is £178,592, and it ap- The Shannon, of the same nominal rating, plies entirely to this year, there being no in 1858-9, requires 560 men, and costs such item in the year 1852-3. It is en £19,341. I can give the Committee still tirely new. The next item is the Vote another proof of the great increase of exfor the wages of Artificers. It is now pense as respects the rate of wages. The £966,921 ; in 1852-3 it was £666,929, cost of building the bull of the Indefatibeing an increase of 45 per cent. A gable, a 50-gun frigate, in 1852-3 was large increase in this Vote has been caused £51,836 ; but the Shannon, also a 50-gun by the addition of steam factories to our frigate, cost £71,112 ; and the Orlando, dockyards, which has arisen entirely from a new steam frigate launched last summer, the increased adoption of steam power cost £99,375. These figures go far to in our navy during the last few years. This explain the great difference of expense in is a circumstance, of course, entirely be one part of the Estimates at least. I can yond the control of any Government; but give another proof of the same thing in the main cause of the large difference in a different way. The construction of the this Vote is the increased size and cost of Britannia, 121 guns, required 4,550 loads our ships and the increased efforts which of rough timber and the labour of 218 shipare being made now as compared with wrights, while the Marlborough, the same 1852 for the extension of our navy. On class of vessel, recently built, required the item of Naval Stores there is an in- 16,068 loads of timber and 334 shipwrights So that here again you have a proof in £4,000,000 sterling in providing steam the items of building, stores, and artificers' engines for the royal navy. I stated then wages, of how much more costly it is to that I thought it desirable to ascertain build ships in these days than it was a few how far the national property so obtained years ago. The Rodney, again, required had been taken care of, and whether the 3,610 loads of timber and 219 shipwrights; engines for our vessels was constructed while the Renown, a vessel of the same on the best, most approved, and most class, but lately built, required 4,680 loads scientific principles. I have redeemed of timber and 277 shipwrights. The im- the pledge which I then gave to the mense increase in the size of our ships will House, that there should be

an inprepare hon. Members for a great augmen- quiry into these subjects, and in the course tation in another item of our Navy Esti. of last summer I appointed a Committee mates, which has been the subject of re- consisting of Admiral Ramsden, Mr. John mark on several occasions—I mean the Ward, and Mr. Nasmyth, and I intrusted Vote for new works. Between 1852 and to them the duty of investigating tho 1858 the increase in new works has been state of the steam machinery of the navy. from £265,140 in 1852 to £585,862 in This Committee report that the result of 1858, or 120 per cent. The cause of this their inquiries is, that the steam machinery must, upon consideration, be obvious. As of the Royal Navy is in a very creditable your ships increase in size you find that state, and that in this respect the money has the slips and docks, which were perfectly been well expended, and the public have sufficient a few years ago, have now become been faithfully served. I am bound, howivsufficient, and that you must therefore go ever, to say that this able paper contains to the expense of reconstruction, and 1 several recommendations, some of which need not say that the building of new slips at least it is the intention of the Admiralty and docks is a very costly affair. We have to adopt, as we believe that they will tend in the whole of Her Majesty's yards forty to the advantage of the public service. One two building slips, and at this moment of those recommendations is that in taking only nine of them are large enough tenders for the supply of steam engines there for the construction of first-rate ships. ought to be more scope for competition We are increasing the size of ten among the manufacturers than has hitherto others, and, of course, a large amount of been allowed. Considering the magnitude money is required for this purpose. The of these requirements and the immense case of docks is still more remarkable. mischief that might arise from any defects, We have thirty-three docks, of which four it is certainly a grave question whether it only, in Her Majesty's yards and I hope is not best to confine the invitations to a hon. embers will ear the statement in few manufacturers in London, or to exmind when the Vote comes on for discussion tend the competition more widely. My —will accommodate ships of the largest own opinion is that the public object will class. We are therefore obliged to alter be best attained by a wider system of comand enlarge the docks, and we are now petition than has hitherto been allowed ; engaged in enlarging five of them ; but, and we propose, therefore, to invite tenders after all, when these are altered, that from engineers in Liverpool, in Scotland, will only give us nine docks capable of or wherever there are houses of known holding first-rate ships. But we cannot eminence. I have also thought it my attain that object without the expenditure duty to appoint another Committee to inof immense sums of money, and those quire into the labour in our dockyards. Members who look to this Vote will find The sum expended in our dockyards is that a very large sum is asked for to attain enormously large, and it is most important these objects.

that in expending such sums economy Sir, having entered into this explanation should be practised, and the full value of with regard to the difference in the Votes our expenditure be obtained. I by no means of 1852 and the present year, I wish now state that I have any suspicion that wrong to refer to an observation which was made practices have existed in the dockyards; but by myself when moving the Estimates on the Committee which sat in 1848 recoma former occasion. It may be in the re- mended an inquiry into this subject, and I collection of hon. Members that on that wish particularly to ask the attention of occasion I drew attention to the immense the hon. Member for Lambeth to this. amount of money expended in the pur- They state in their Report that is idle to chase of steam machinery, and that we suppose that a Parliamentry Committee had then spent little less a sum than I could really investigate the details of dock


yard expenditure—that it is altogether out the public, the Committee, I think, will at
of the question—and that any efficient in- once see that it was impossible that Her
quiry must be conducted by some body of Majesty's Government could have framed
men appointed especially for the purpose. these Estimates with any reference to the
In consequence of that Report à Com- contents of that Report. But I cannot
mittee was appointed soon after ; they omit to say, and in so saying, I think I
closely investigated the expenditure in the am only giving expression to a very gene-
dockyards, and as a result great economy ral opinion, that that Commission is en-
and many improvements were introduced. titled to public gratitude for the manner in
But that took place ten years ago, and I which it has discharged its duties. The
thought it desirable that we should have House will recollect that when the hon. and
another inquiry into the expenditure of the gallant Admiral moved for the Commission,
dockyards, in order to ascertain whether I stated that I thought there was one
the money was laid out in the most judi- special object which its members should
cious and economical manner, or whether have in view - namely, that some mode
there was still room for improvement. That should be devised for establishing a con-
Committee was headed by Admiral Smart, nection between the Royal Navy and
and it has been engaged in the investiga- the mercantile navy, in the event of
tion down to the present time. I regret any emergency requiring that additional
that Report is not yet finished, but I un- strength should be given to the Royal
derstand from the Chairman that the re- Navy. I stated that so far as concerned
sult of the inquiry will be the recommenda- the ordinary meaning of our fleet in time
tion of very considerable changes, which, of peace, I did not believe that that
in his opinion, will lead to a much more commission would be able to discover
economical and judicious expenditure in anything more effectual than the plan
the dockyards in future. I mention these recommended by the Manning Committee
facts to show — and I hope they will be of 1852, and carried into full effect
accepted by the Committee as showing — by my right hon. Friend the Member for
the desire there is on the part of the Go. Carlisle, during the period when he was
vernment to secure the most advantageous First Lord of the Admiralty-namely, the
expenditure of the large sums intrusted to continuous service system. I find in the
their care. I have thus detained the Com- Report that the Commissioners entirely
mittee with this explanation, comparing confirm the view which I then ventured to

1858 with the year 1852, and express. I think we may rely with con trust the result of the comparison I have fidence on the ordinary manning of our instituted will be to impress the Committee fleet upon that system, and I hope the and the public out of doors with the idea House will enable the Government to carry that as far as it is in the power of the out that system into still more efficient Executive Government the expenditure of operation. I believe, indeed, that there these sums has been regulated by a sense is no recommendation in the Report of the of duty and by a desire to exercise the Commission, from the beginning to the end utmost practical economy,

of it, which is not at least entitled to the I will now turn to the Estimates which prompt and serious consideration of Her I

propose for the ensuing year, and to the Majesty's Government; but I will not at first Vote, Sir, which I shall place in your present express any opinion on the plan rehands at the conclusion of this statement commended by the Commissioners for the -namely, to the amount of Men for which general manning of the navy, but I may we intend to ask.

Before I proceed to say that I believe it presents a fair prospect say anything with regard to this Vote for ensuring the accomplishment of the I wish to refer to the Report which great object for which it was devised. has just been placed in the hands of The Vote for men that we hon. Members, and which was looked for going to propose is, I admit, of a very with very great anxiety by the public. I unusual amount. I believe it is the largest allude to the Report of the Commission Vote of men ever proposed in this House moved for by the hon. and gallant Officer in a time of peace, and I admit, therefore, opposite (Sir Charles Napier) on the Man- that we are bound to show strong reasons ning of the Navy.

As that Report has for its justification. I trust that looking only been in the hands of hon. Members at the present aspect of public affairs, and two or three days, and I had not the ad- in the present state of public affairs and vantage of seeing it more than two or of our naval service, the Committee will three days before it was communicated to not hesitate to confirm the opinion of Her

are now

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