MR. T. O'BRIEN said, that these returns were absolutely needed to inform the House on the real facts of the case.

tendence of the prisons was of an entirely to be extended in such a manner as to show satisfactory kind. ["No, no!"] He had the religion of the superintendents. mixed with all classes of his countrymen, and had never heard any fault found with the mode in which the grand juries had performed their duties. The first portion of the Motion was useless, as the names were already on the table; and as to the religious faith of the individuals, no record was kept, and he did not know from what source the return, if ordered, could be made. MR. H. HERBERT said, he would begin returns, and he thought it would be to remind the noble Lord that the returns could be furnished by the secretaries to the grand juries.

MR. WHITESIDE said, that a more ungracious attack could not be conceived than that which had been made on the conduct of the Government in reference to Roman Catholic magistrates. They were ready and anxious to make such appointments when they could find proper persons to fill the office; and when the Marquess of Donegal, who was himself a Member of the Whig party, had lately, in his capacity of Lord Lieutenant of the county of Antrim, recommended that a Roman Catholic gentleman should be named a magistrate for that county, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had at once made the appointment. In reference to the Motion itself, he would only observe that there were no means of compelling any gentleman to make known what was his particular religious profes

sion.

MR. HATCHELL said, he thought it would be only right to have the returns asked for that the real facts might be known. There would be no difficulty in obtaining the information required.

MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, he would remind the House that a Commission had recommended that appointments of magistrates should be more extended to Roman Catholic gentlemen. He also would remark that the Lord Chancellor had power to appoint magistrates without the recommendation of the Lord Lieutenant of the county. THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, that on no occasion had a magistrate been appointed for the county of Antrim except on the recommendation of the Lord Lieu

tenant.

MR. HASSARD said, that out of the twelve Members of the Board of Superintendence in the city which he represented (the City of Waterford) six were Roman Catholics.

MR. GREER said, that the return ought

MR. WALPOLE said, that the question was not one in which the Government were in any way concerned. The Members of the Board of Superintendence were appointed, not by them, but by the local authorities. The religious distinctions mentioned in the Motion were never given

most unreasonable to require that they should now be furnished.

MR. COGAN said, he desired the information which the returns would supply, because the noble Lord (Lord Naas) had proposed by his Bill to extend the jurisdic tion of these local Boards to the lunatic asylums; and the returns, by giving the name and religion of each of these gentlemen, would show why that ought not to be the case.

Question put-The House divided :Ayes 31; Noes 84: Majority 53.

House adjourned at One o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, February 25, 1859. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS-22 Occasional Forms of Prayer.

MUNICIPAL FRANCHISE.

SELECT COMMITTEE MOVED. EARL GREY rose to move for a Select Committee to inquire whether the Act 13 & 14 Vict., cap. 99, for the better assessing and collecting the Poor Rates and Highway Rates in respect of small Tenements, and of the Act of last Session, cap. 43, to amend the Municipal Franchise in certain cases, have produced any Change in the Character of Municipal Elections and Town Councils, and in the Mode of conducting the Local Government of Corporate Towns. The noble Earl said, that he trusted to be able to show that the subject on which he was about to address their Lordships was one of considerable importance. Their Lordships would recollect that by the Act of 1835, the right of voting in boroughs, for municipal purposes, was conferred on all resident householders who had been rated for any amount, for a period of three years, and who had paid all rates imposed in those three years, except these

that had fallen due within the last six this remarkable fact was to be observed months of that period. There was a clause in regard to this ward, that the property also in the Bill to preserve the right of occupied by these 1,500 persons, who had voting of persons who might have changed engrossed the whole power of the ward, their houses, provided they had been was assessed at only £2,000 a year, though householders and ratepayers for three the total assessment of the ward was years continuously. In 1850 a Bill was £34,000. Therefore, it came to this, that brought into Parliament to enable parishes, the whole power of the ward, and the if they so thought fit, to rate the owner in- management of its local affairs, were given stead of the occupier, where the rateable to those who paid 7 per cent of the rates, value of the tenement was below £6. while those who paid 93 per cent were While that Bill was going through Parlia- practically excluded from all power and ment, a clause was inserted that escaped influence whatever. It was further stated the attention of almost every Member of to him by persons whose opinions were Parliament, and the importance of which entitled to great weight, that in many was not perceived at the time. The effect towns this large augmentation in the numof that clause was to permit persons, though ber of voters had been attended with a very they had not paid rates themselves, to lamentable alteration in the character of claim their votes if their landlord had been the municipal government. He was inrated. By the original law, in order to formed that under the original municipal obtain a vote, the occupier must have been franchise the town-councils usually conrated himself and paid his rates, or if his sisted of the most respectable inhabitants landlord had been rated and paid, the occu- of the towns-of men fitted by their intelpier must claim to pay them; but by the ligence and their interest in the affairs of clause inserted in the Act of 1850, this the towns to be intrusted with their local was entirely altered, and it was provided government; but that since this great that every man who paid rent for premises augmentation in the number of voters took for which the landlord was rated, should place bribery and treating and personation have a right to vote. The consequence were often resorted to, to a great extent at was that the occupiers of a large number the municipal elections. He was inclined to of small tenements, who had never been believe that in some cases this must be true, rated, were enabled to claim the right to because he observed by the "Votes" of vote. In the last Session of Parliament the other House of Parliament that a Bill another Act passed, which extended the had been introduced for the purpose of same principle to other cases where the making it a penal offence to be guilty of landlord was rated instead of the occupier. treating and personation at municipal elecBy the change made in 1850, the number tions. He must be permitted to say, howof voters in towns was largely increased. ever, that where temptations to practices In Newcastle, for example, the number of of this sort existed, and the disposition to voters in 1853, before the Act came into be guilty of them, he was persuaded that operation, was 4,363; in the present year mere penal enactments would never be they were 9,850, being an increase of more successful in putting them down. He was than double, or of 125 per cent. He had inclined to believe this allegation about taken pains to ascertain the effect of this treating and bribing, because he found change, and had received very conflicting that at a contested election last year in the statements. He was informed that in some ward of All Saints, in Newcastle, to which towns the Act was working well, that in he had already referred, a public meeting others it had had no perceptible effect, but took place at which the parties mutually that in others it had been attended with most charged each other in the strongest terms injurious consequences. It was complained with these corrupt practices. He had also that one effect of the Act had been to been informed that in consequence of the throw the whole power of local govern- change which had taken place in the ment, in some cases, into the hands of manner in which elections were carried on, one particular class of persons. For ex- there was a growing reluctance on the part ample, in the ward of All Saints, in New- of those men who were best fitted to occupy castle, the number of voters on the roll was seats in the town councils to go through the somewhere about 700 before the Act came ordeal of election. They would not submit into operation; it had now increased to to go through the meetings in publichouses 2,300, and of these 2.300, about 1,500 and the kind of canvassing that was neceswere occupiers of small tenements. And sary in order to be returned; and in con

sequence the seats in the municipal councils troduced into the measure in their Lordwere gradually falling into the hands of an ships' House. But, in order to enable their inferior class of persons. The effect of Lordships to discharge with effect the the change was also perceptible in the duties devolving on them in considering manner in which the public business was the provisions of such a Bill, he could not carried on, for he was told that in some help thinking they ought to have more incases there was a suspension of business formation than was at that moment before altogether; and in others it was asserted them; and he regretted Her Majesty's Gothat the proceedings of Town Councils, vernment did not think fit to adopt a suggeswhich were formerly decorous and orderly, tion which he ventured to make in the course were now carried on in a very diffe- of last Session, that during the autumn rent manner. Communications had been means should be taken for collecting informade to him on this subject from both mation bearing on this subject; for if sides. He did not presume to say which that suggestion had been acted on their were the correct representations of the Lordships would have learnt a great deal effect of the change that had taken place that would be useful in considering the in the law, but it appeared to him to be a provisions of such a measure in reference subject that well deserved inquiry, and to the machinery by which the choice of therefore he proposed to ask for a Com- the electors is determined in large constimittee for that purpose. Municipal govern- tuencies; they might have learnt the ment was in itself of great importance. manner in which representative institutions Almost all towns in this country of any in the various localities and in other counconsiderable size were now incorporated, tries did their work; and such informaand the manner in which the local govern- tion would have been of great assistance ment was carried on affected the welfare of to them. It was now too late to obtain large portions of the population. Local the greater part of that information, but government affected the well-being of the he thought it was of the utmost importance people almost as much as Imperial Govern- to ascertain the effect of increasing the ment; and it was also by local government municipal voters in the way he had dethat the people were best trained for the ex- scribed on the working of our municipal ercise of their higher political powers. He institutions. Their Lordships were all did not attempt to disguise from their aware that a gentleman well known and of Lordships that his principal motive for great ability had recently suggested that asking them to enter on this inquiry at the a franchise should be adopted for Parliapresent moment was, that he believed it mentary elections corresponding in a great would bring out information of no slight degree with that which obtained with revalue as regarded a question of far higher spect to municipal elections under the law importance; he alluded to the great ques- as it was altered in 1850; and he had tion of Parliamentary Reform. From Her stated, as one of the grounds for recomMajesty's Speech, and from the notice mending the adoption of such a franchise, which had appeared for some days on the that it had answered so well in corporate "Votes" of the other House of Parlia- towns. It seemed to him (Earl Grey) that ment, their Lordships might expect that in it was desirable to ascertain how far that the course of the present Session they was really the case; because if it was might be called on to consider a Bill for true that that great extension of the right altering the existing law relating to elec- of voting in municipal boroughs had tions of Members of the House of Com- worked well-if it could be proved that mons. He was convinced their Lordships, a very large proportion of the inhabitants when called upon to deal with the subject, of boroughs who had been enabled to would all feel the responsibility under exercise the right of voting, had done so which they acted in considering a measure without injurious consequences, he adof such great moment to the future pros-mitted that such a fact would weigh very perity of this great empire. From the materially in favour of the argument for fact that none of their Lordships were de- the adoption of a similar principle with pendent on constituencies some parts of respect to Parliamentary elections; but, this measure they might, perhaps, be in a if the contrary should turn out to be the position to consider in a more deliberate case-if it should be proved that that alterand dispassionate manner than the other ation had not worked well in our municiHouse of Parliament, and therefore Amend-palities-then he thought the experience ments of a valuable character might be in- of its operation would afford a good reason

for the exercise of caution in adopting such | tion of those several Acts was a question a right of voting for Members of Parliament. Those were were the simple grounds on which he asked for this Committee.

of 1850? Before they entered upon an | colour of truth to a notion-a most uninquiry of that nature they should make up founded notion, he believed which did their minds to the consequences. If it prevail in certain quarters that that House should be shown that the Act had worked was less disposed than the other branch injuriously in some boroughs and bene- of the Legislature to consider fairly and ficially in others, how could the noble Earl liberally any proposition for the extension distinguish between them? He must either of our institutions. It might give some continue the grievances in those boroughs colour to such an idea if their Lordships where they existed by leaving the Act un- were to consent to a Motion which, to a touched, or he must deprive those boroughs certain degree, would imply a belief that where it had worked well of the advan- town councils had degenerated in conse tages it had produced by repealing the quence of an extension of the franchise, Act altogether. Surely the noble Earl and that therefore a large number of those would not propose to Parliament to with- councils were to be put upon their trial. draw a franchise once granted without the With respect to the other branch of the strongest reasons. Then, he must ask proposed inquiry, much might be said in again, how would the noble Earl act if it its favour; but he did not agree with the should be found that the Act had worked noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) ill in twenty boroughs and well in twenty that the terms of the Motion should be exothers? Individually, he (the Earl of tended. It would be in his opinion better Derby) had not the slightest objection to to limit the terms of the Motion, so as to such a Committee as that proposed; but except the invidious words at the end of it, before assenting to it he thought the House as now proposed. There was no doubt that should be satisfied that some real advan- great and increased bribery took place at tage would be derived from the inquiry. municipal elections, but that increase was If their Lordships generally thought it de- connected with the prevention of bribery at sirable to accede to the Motion of the Parliamentary elections by the severe penal noble Earl, upon the part of the Govern statutes now existing. Both parties exerted ment he should not resist it; but he their utmost efforts to succeed in those could not avoid stating that, in his own municipal contests, because thereby an inopinion, the inquiry would be exceedingly fluence was exercised upon the subsequent vague and unsatisfactory, and would pro- Parliamentary elections. If the fact of bably lead to no practical result. bribery at municipal elections was notorious that a Bill upon the subject had been already introduced into the other House, then there was no reason why their Lordships should not examine into the matter before they were called upon to deal with the Bill. At the same time it appeared to him that a Motion of this kind would be of no use if the Government disapproved of it, and he gathered from the noble Earl opposite that he was of opinion that no Committee should be appointed. Although he should have supported the Motion if the inquiry was limited to the working of the municipal system, yet under the circumstances he should recommend his noble Friend not to press it.

EARL GRANVILLE thought an inquiry into the conduct of all the town councils would be an exceedingly invidious inquiry and one which it would be exceed ingly difficult to carry out. It would be necessary to find adverse witnesses willing to give evidence, and then all the mayors and town councillors of a considerable number of boroughs would claim as a right to be heard in their own defence. The noble Earl desired information upon two points first as to the results of the Act upon the character of town councils, and next he desired information which every one must admit to be necessary to obtain to the fullest possible extent before Parliament was called upon to deal with the question of amending the system of Parliamentary representation. He quite agreed that it was almost impossible to over-estimate the value of any information which could be obtained upon that point; but, at the same time, he doubted whether, considering the kind of information they were likely to derive from the labours of this particular Committee it would be worth while for the House of Lords to give a

SO

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH thought it very necessary to inquire into the conduct of the corporations since the passing of the Municipal Corporation Act in 1850. The best test of good government was economy, and therefore he should like to know at what expenditure municipal government had been carried on before, and at what expenditure since the passing of that Act. It would, too, be interesting to learn how far the police had been made