of them in the House at the present moment would be misunderstood in India, and consequently jeopardize the great cause we have so much at heart. Ever since the appearance of your Resolutions I have consulted many of my friends, on whose judgment I can safely rely, and whose opinion I am in the habit of asking, and I find that they universally concur in the view I have above taken. I know you will receive this as it is meant, and give it grave consideration. Believe me, my dear Warren, doing my duty, and ruining my character as a public man, and as a Member of this House, and subjecting not only myself to intolerable suspicion and misrepresentation, but possibly even compromising himself and the Government. He cheerfully agreed, seeing me so earnest, to leave the matter open once more till the ensuing Monday. I returned direct from his Lordship's room to this House, and was encountered by a number of friends-among them four of the most eminent and distinguished in the House; one of them, my noble Friend, now sitting beside me, the Member for the East Riding (Lord Hotham) who strenuously urged on me that my scruples were groundless, and that I could with the nicest sense of honour and conscientiousness accept the Lord Chancellor's offer, and that nobody would be absurd enough to impute to me base motives in so doing. My noble Friend, with all the great weight due to his character and opinions within, and out of, this House, was most decisive in the view he had taken. To my noble Friend's powerful representations at last I yielded, for I had just before been made acquainted with a strangely altered state of things with reference to my Resolutions, without any reference to those personal considerations to which I have referred. My two hon. Friends, the Member for Perth (Mr. Kinnaird) and for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) emphatically assured me that in the opinion of the great religious bodies, who had had my printed Resolutions under their anxious consideration, the present was a most inopportune moment for bringing them forward and discussing them in this House -that whatever intrinsic merit they might have, much mischief would inevitably be done in India by stirring in them here, at this present conjuncture. I beg to read to the House a letter which my hon. Friend (Mr. Spooner) put into my hands, and which had very great weight with me-for all in this House, I am sure, personally respect him. "National Club, White Hall, February 18th, 1859. "MY DEAR WARREN,-I have often had great pleasure in consulting with you on questions involving moral and religious considerations, and happily we have almost, if not entirely, agreed on every such occasion. Allow me now to state my opinion, an opinion formed not without deliberate and anxious consideration, that the present moment is very inopportune for bringing forward and discussing your Indian Resolutions. Thoroughly as I agree in the principles laid down in those Resolutions (although differing perhaps in some of the details,) I greatly fear that the discussion "Yours very faithfully, RD. SPOONER." Subsequently to receiving this letter, my hon. Friend the Member for Perth (Mr. Kinnaird) to whose opinion also, on this subject, I felt bound to defer, communicated to me documentary evidence, at this moment in my possession, of an important character, and, from another quarter, decisively corroborating the views of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire. Although the Lord Chancellor, who has throughout behaved to me in the kindest and handsomest way possible, had given me till Monday morning, I felt it my duty to wait upon him at an early hour the next (Saturday) morning, when he showed me a letter written by himself to me, lying on his table, and which was to have been sent off almost immediately. He read it to me himself, and I only wish, so much honour does it reflect upon him, that I were at liberty to read every word of it to the House. Being marked private, however, I cannot do so. He assured me most distinctly that the idea of my proposed Resolutions for Thursday next had never crossed his mind, and that he had not had the slightest communication with any of his colleagues on the subject that his objection was on general grounds, and not in the smallest degree personal to myself, or with reference to my intended proceedings in this House: that he then saw clearly the position in which I should be placed, and perhaps the Government also, if I were to leave Parliament before Thursday next. His Lordship said again that he was the only person responsible in the matter, and no one else had anything to answer for with respect to it. He said finally that he should deeply regret that my character should suffer on the one hand, or that I should be called upon to make any sacrifice on the other; and would therefore give me till Saturday next to decide whether I would or would not accept the office; which would enable me to fulfil the duty I had undertaken, and secure-his Lordship was pleased to say— my services to the public, in the office for which he considered me fitted. Sir, having SIR CHARLES NAPIER said, he did not think the answer of the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty at all satisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that the returns he asked for were already, at least so far as their substantial materials were concerned, at the Admiralty, and could in fact be furnished with the greatest ease. In bis opinion it was absolutely necessary, in order to understand the statement which the First Lord of the Admiralty was about to make, to have those returns before the House. Therefore, though he had no support, he would press his Motion to a division. been thus considerably freed from every-which were very expensive and might be of thing that could fetter my movements, or little use. He had been asked by hon. bias my mind, my presence here in my place Members for similar returns, and he had to-day is a sufficient vindication, I hope, informed them that it was desirable to wait of the parity of my motives, and the pro- until after he had made his statement on priety of the course I have determined the Naval Estimates, which possibly might to take, and the honourable manner in render the returns in question unnecessary. which I have been dealt with by the Lord If after that the hon. and gallant Admiral Chancellor. I am prepared to support required further information, he should be every one of my Resolutions, which have happy to give him any returns he might been deeply considered by me in all their think within it his duty to lay on the table. bearings, and contain my fixed and matured opinions on the transcendant question to which they refer. But, Sir, after what has happened, and deserted as I have been at the eleventh hour, by that moral support on which I had relied both within and without these walls, and assured by those whom I respect that I should, by persisting in my own course, only injure the great cause I had wished to serve-what can I do, but withdraw my Resolutions? I do therefore, withdraw them, and hope that my conduct in doing so cannot possibly be misunderstood. I felt this explanation absolutely due to my own character individually, and as a Member of the House, for I shall have no future opportunity of vindicating here my procedure in this matter. And now, Sir, there remains for me only to express my deep sense of the personal kindness with which I have always been received by this House, for which I entertain a profound respect,--and to perform the most painful duty I ever had to perform in my life, that of bidding you, Sir, and this House, a reluctant and respectful farewell. ADMIRAL DUNCOMBE hoped the noble and gallant Admiral would not think it necessary to press his Motion after what had fallen from the First Lord, Question put and negatived. AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS. RESOLUTION. MR. CAIRD moved the following Resolution : "That it would be advantageous to the public interests that Government should ascertain and NAVY.-RETURNS MOVED FOR. MOTION publish periodically the Agricultural Satistics of NEGATIVED. SIR CHARLES NAPIER moved, "That there be laid before this House, Returns of the Steamers on the Home Station in commission and manned, their force and steam power: Of the First Reserve, and the Men borne on their books: Of the Ships in the Second Reserve, and their state: Of the Steamers Abroad: Great Britain, in so far as they relate to the extent of acres under the several crops of corn, vegetables, and grass." The hon. Member said, that he had proposed a Bill on this subject last Session. The noble Lord the present Secretary of State for India, presented a petition self as chairman, in favour of the Bill. from the Statistical Society, signed by himIn his present Motion he had adopted Of the Steamers in the Third Reserve, and their some of the suggestions made last year, state: and had restricted his statistics to the merce of the country were gathered in the that the acreage was by far the most im process of collecting the revenue, but that portant, as it was the only certain informafor the purpose of collecting agricultural tion they could secure. Anything beyond statistics a great and additional expense that must be purely in the nature of an must be entailed on the country. But estimate. The want of such a guide as he would suggest a mode of collecting these returns would afford, was seen in the the statistics of the agriculture of the present state of prices. Owing to the want country that would be no additional ex- of knowledge which prevailed among farmers pense whatever. He proposed that the as to the extent of the country's surface next Census of 1861 be made the op- under particular crops, oats were at this portunity of collecting them. They had moment as dear per pound, as wheat in the already had a proof that it could be done Liverpool market-a state of things quite without any difficulty. By means of the unprecedented, and was the consequence last Census of 1851, certain agricultural of the farmers not being informed of the facts were requested to be filled up extent to which their neighbours had gone voluntarily; and they were almost all in the cultivation of wheat, to the exclusion filled up. They consisted of returns of of inferior kinds of corn. If these statisthe acreage of each farm, and the number tics were furnished, it might be left to the of labourers employed by each occupier. acuteness of the practical agriculturist to There would be no difficulty in adding a make a proper use of them. He had referfew columns to the return in 1861, for the red to the machinery for taking the Census number of separate acres under each crop, as one mode by which his object could be and thus obtain a correct knowledge of the carried out. But there were other means extent of land under each, at least once in of attaining the same end. If the Goevery ten years. If the information were vernment would only take the matter up found valuable, then the same machinery earnestly, they could easily accomplish it. might be continued, and made annual if It had been suggested last year that these they chose. It was not necessary to go statistics might readily be collected by the into any argument in favour of the prin- instrumentality of the county police; no ciple of the Resolution. Almost every doubt, an intelligent officer, provided with prominent Member of the present Govern- a book ruled off into different columns, and ment had expressed an opinion in favour of going about from farm to farm, could prothe principle-The First Lord of the Ad- cure the requisite returns without difficulty miralty, the President of the Board of or expense. In the evidence lately taken Trade, the Secretary for the Colonies, before a Committee of the House of Lords, and the noble Lord the Secretary for In- it was shown that the officers of the Royal dia. While expressing his opinion in favour Engineers had been able, with the aid of of the collection of these statistics, the the Ordnance map alone, together with noble Lord the Minister for India sug- their own personal observation of the crops, gested that the returns should be as simple to collect accurate satistics of the acreage and as little troublesome as possible. By in a part of the county of Edinburgh. The restricting the words of the Resolution to publication of information of this nature, the acreage under the several crops, this would not reduce prices, but render them recommendation of the noble Lord would steady and uniform. The present fluctuabe fully carried out. It had been objected tions in the price of bread were more inlast year that this information would come jurious to the labourer than to any other too late in the year to be of any service; class. The utility of such returns as he but, as it was quite clear that if confined sought, was more than usually obvious at to the acreage it could be obtained imme- this juncture. We were, perhaps, on the eve diately after the crops were sown, there of an European war; and for our supplies of was no reason why it might not be regu- food we were largely dependent upon folarly published in the month of July. It reign nations. The source of one-fourth bad also been said that mere acreage re- of our entire foreign supply had been returns would be valueless when procured; cently dried up. America now sent us but the answer to that was that experience absolutely nothing, though during the last in the case of Ireland and Scotland proved ten years she had exported corn to the exthat the variation between the acreage sown tent of more than £8,000,000 annually. under the several crops from year to year Such a sudden cessation of an important was very much greater than the variation supply might seriously affect the comfort in the produce of cach crop. This showed of the people of this country. The prin. ciple of his Motion had been repeatedly acknowledged by the House, money having been voted in several successive years for the collection of agricultural returns in Ireland and Scotland. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Resolution. MR. GARNETT seconded the Motion. He had been largely interested in improving land in his neighbourhood, and he must disavow any participation in the alarm which had sometimes been expressed at the effect likely to be produced by the collection of agricultural statistics. Last autumn the Emperor of the French sent over to this country a commissioner to inquire into the effect, in England, of withdrawing the duties on the importation of corn. The commissioner, an eminent man, was, by his own intelligence and observation, able to render a satisfactory answer to the inquiry. Still, how much better it would have been if the commissioner sent by the Emperor had had it in his power to turn to any trustworthy returns of agricultural produce and agricultural progress. They could not tell what the effect of that might have been on the French Emperor. It might have led to increase communication between the two Countries, which would have been most beneficial, not only to Great Britain and France, but to all countries connected with them. We had returns from our Colonies; we knew the state of agricultural produce in Australia, in Canada, and at the Cape; we had returns from the sister island, Ireland; but in England we could not get the facts. What was the reason? Prejudice, he believed, and it had been well said that it was more difficult to remove a prejudice than confute an argument. He hoped, however, that the existing prejudice against the collection of agricultural produce would be removed. MR. BENTINCK said, he had listened with some surprise at the course taken by the hon. Member for Dartmouth (Mr. Caird). On two former occasions the hon. Member introduced a Bill on the subject, and on both the Bill was rejected by the House on the ground that it was impossible to carry out the project without introducing a com pulsory clause. Yet the hon. Member now wanted to bind the House to an abstract Resolution to transfer to the Government the responsibility of carrying into effect the object which he had twice failed in persuading the House to sanction. In fact, he wanted the Government to find out the means of effecting that which he was himself unable to show the House the mode of carrying out. The hon. Gentleman said that the objections formerly urged were directed against the details of the Bills, not against the principle which they embodied; but that was not correct-the objections were that any Bill would be inoperative without compulsory clauses, and these the House had always refused to grant. The objection therefore went to the principle. The hon. Gentleman said that these returns would be attainable in June; but the fact was that no such statistics had ever been published before September, and could therefore be of advantage to no one but the corn-jobber. The hon. Member was very anxious to promote the good of the agriculturists, and no doubt they would be greatly obliged to him for his efforts on their behalf; but there were many other Members of that House who were quite as solicitous for the interests of agriculture as was the hon. Member for Dartmouth, and there therefore existed no reason why he should take it under his exclusive protection. The hon. Gentleman had failed to show that these statistics would be of the slightest advantage either to the farmer-who sowed his land not according to the state of the markets, but according to a system of cropping,-to the artisan, or to the labourer, and under all the circumstances of the case he hoped that the House would not agree to the Resolution which he had moved MR. PHILIPPS said, the Resolution merely affirmed a principle, that it would be advantageous that Government should ascertain and publish periodically the agricultural statistics of the country. He attached no great importance to these returns one way or the other; but he had a great objection to the Resolution, for he foresaw that if they were instituted there must be fresh Inspectors, and there were too many of them already. The first living writer of the day on the subject of history, Lord Macaulay, said that to be governed by busybodies was more than flesh and blood could bear; but that was the condition to which we were now approaching, and he should watch with the greatest jealously any addition to the existing number of inspectors and reporters. MR. HOLLAND said, that although he last year supported the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Dartmouth, he should vote against this Resolution, because it proposed to base the system upon acreage. That would be a sound foundation if each acre bore only one crop per annum ; but it must be remembered that in some cases three crops were raised on the same land in a year. MR. W. MILES said, that when the hon. Member who brought forward the Motion on this occasion last year moved a Bill for the purpose of procuring agricultural statistics, he (Mr. Miles) gave the Bill his support, as he would to any practical measure that might be brought forward for the purpose of procuring good agricultural statistics; but the hon. Member did not then succeed, and he was now taking the extraordinary course of attempting by a side-wind, and by loosely casting the responsibility on the Governinent, to obtain what he failed in procuring by direct means. If he understood the speech of the hon. Member, the statistics he now moved for would not be of the slightest use or benefit to the farmer. The statistics moved for last year would probably have been of general benefit, but the Resolution now before the House would be of no good to any one. Therefore, as the hon. Member for Dartmouth had made his speech, and manifested his anxiety to procure a good system of agricultural statistics, he trusted that he would not press his Motion to a division. would excuse him for persisting in his Motion, which he believed to be for the best interests of the country. MR. HENLEY said, the Resolution proposed by the hon. Member affirmed that it would be advantageous to the public interests that Government should ascertain and publish periodically the agricultural statistics of Great Britain; but that would apply to every year or six months as well as to every ten years. The hon. Member said that the farming interest generally made no objection to supply the information they were requested to give at the last Census. That, he (Mr. Henley) believed, was quite correct, and he thought it very probable that if the farming interest had not been so much harassed by the repeated schemes for compulsory returns which had been brought forward in the interval, they would be equally ready, at the request of the Government, to give the same information at the next Census. But the hon. Member also said, that if the information was obtained at the next Census, it could be asked for again the year following. Now, that was not the wisest mode of dealing with the English farmer for the purpose of inducing him to do a thing which he might or might not conceive to be desirable. But the hon. Member must know perfectly well MR. CAIRD, in reply, said he was much that the several compulsory schemes that surprised at the speech he had just heard, had been propounded during the last few for last year the hon. Member for Somerset years had created a general feeling on the recommended him to leave the details of part of the farming interest, not, perhaps, any measure dealing with this subject in of resistance, but certainly of dislike to the hands of the Government. He had these statistics. That had undoubtedly followed that advice, and now the hon. been the case in many counties of EngMember recommended a contrary course. land. He did not think, therefore, that He was sorry he could not keep pace with the placing an abstract Resolution of this the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. Hol-kind upon the votes of the House would at land), whose support he regretted that he all facilitate the object the hon. Member was not to have on that occasion: he had for Dartmouth had in view. It would not considered the case of farmers who grew probably become a dead letter; no Governthree crops in one year, but only aspire to ment would feel under the necessity of actmeet the wants of the general system of ing upon it; it would have no practical agriculture, which obtained only one crop result; indeed, if it had any effect at all, of corn per annum. The hon. Member for it would rather be to keep alive the feelWest Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck) had rebuked ing of repugnance to the measure, which, him for presuming to come forward as the whether rightly or wrongly, they all knew representative of the farmers; but to show prevailed to a considerable extent in the that he was not acting in that capacity country. An hon. Member (Mr. Garnett) without authority, he would state that he had remarked that it was desirable to have held in his hand letters from Mr. Hudson, trustworthy returns. He (Mr. Henley) of Castle Acre, in Norfolk, and Mr. George entirely agreed with him. But the quesHope, of Fenton Barns, East Lothian, both tion was, would the returns be trustworthy? of whom were known to be first-rate agri- Was it probable that they could be safely culturists and both of whom were favour- depended upon if a great number of persons able to the systematic collection of agricul- were indisposed to furnish them?-because. tural statistics. He hoped the House let it be remembered that there was no |
