"emoluments" had been objected to. All he could say was, that he found it in the English Acts, but that if it were thought desirable he would put it out. He had provided that the Chief Secretary should have power to order all papers connected with these local courts to be deposited in a certain office, and his object was not only to preserve the documents, but to enable those who wished to ascertain what the actual working of any court had been to do so accurately. In conclusion, the Attorney General said his only object was to substitute good courts for bad ones. There was no way of getting rid of the seneschals except by giving them compensation; and he had no doubt that the Gentlemen at the Treasury would take care to give them no more than they deserved, and perhaps the amount might turn out to be a great deal less than they expected. MR. DAVISON said, he once had the honour of holding the office of seneschal of four of these courts for extensive manors, and he never realized more than £50 a year out of a court. The amount of compensation could not, therefore, be very large. But one of the principal evils that came under his cognisance was this-that the disappointed suitors in the County Courts invariably came for a re-hearing to the Manor Courts. MR. WILSON said, he was quite willing to admit that the principle of the Resolution followed the principle of the County Court Bill for this country. With regard to the County Courts, it was found necessary to clear away the whole of the local courts, which would only have stood in their way, and therefore nobody could disagree as to the necessity, when they were erecting new and superior courts, to clear away all the inferior tribunals. When this principle was introduced in England, the local courts were cleared away by degrees, as the other courts were established, so that the opportunity was not taken away of trying small causes without furnishing a much better tribunal than formerly existed. With regard to the amount of compensation, he thought it was very moderate. But the chief point to which he wished to advert was particularly applicable to the Resolution now before the House. It appeared that this charge for compensation was to be made on the Consolidated Fund. Now, he felt it would be much better to alter this and make it a vote of Parliament -to take the charge off the Consolidated Fund and charge it on "moneys which LORD NAAS said, there would be no objection on the part of the Government to make the suggested alteration. THE CHAIRMAN: Then the question will be that the Motion be withdrawn. MR. WILLIAMS said, he would beg to ask on what ground it was to be withdrawn? He wished to take the sense of the House on it. LORD NAAS replied on the ground that instead of providing for the compensation out of the Consolidated Fund it was to be provided out of money to be voted annually by Parliament for the purpose. Motion by leave withdrawn. On a Resolution that certain stamp duties should be changed on forms of process. MR. WILLIAMS said, it was monstrous for the Committee to be called on to vote these stamp duties in the dark. The Committee did not know either the number of officers, their emoluments, or the sum to be voted for compensation. When he objected to the compensation given to the Six Clerks he was assured by the legal advisers of the Crown of that day that the amount would not be more than £600 or £700 a year, but the sum had proved to be just as many thousands. MR. WHITESIDE said, the hon. Gen tleman was under some mistake. The stamp duties were on the processes issued by the magistrates with regard to cases under 20s. MR. HATCHELL inquired how the stamp duties were to be applied? MR. WHITESIDE said, they would go to cover the expenses. MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, on the contrary, they would go into the fund which provided for the petty sessions clerk, and the public would get nothing from them. MR. WHITESIDE remarked that every suit for more than 20s. must go into the County Courts when the Manor Courts were abolished, and would there pay fees and stamps. The stamps mentioned in this clause were to cover the expenses of the small claims in the Petty Sessions Court. MR. HASSARD: The fees do not now go to the clerks; the clerks are paid by fixed salaries. We are fighting with a shadow. I do believe that from the quantity of business driven into the County Courts an ample fund will be realized to pay all the compensations; but, even if there should be a deficiency, I do not think we ought to hesitate to impose the compensation upon to sound policy to apply one rule to Engthe Consolidated Fund. land and another to Ireland. There already existed power in the Privy Council to direct the County Courts in Ireland to hold more frequent sittings. MR. WILSON said, he desired to know if it was to be understood that these courts were not to be abolished until a proper substitute was found to supply their place? MR. WHITESIDE said, there were County Courts in every county in Ireland, and power was given by the Act of Parliament to order them to hold their sittings more freqnently, and also to sit in districts where they had never sat before. This would be sufficient for dealing with all cases of importance; whilst there were not less than 570 courts in Ireland which sat every week to settle cases of 20s. and under. SIR DENHAM NORREYS said, the Manor Courts enabled persons to recover small debts every three weeks, whereas if THE MANOR COURTS, &c. (IRELAND BILL). this Bill passed parties would be obliged to COMMITTEE. MR. J. D. FITZGERALD moved the omission of all the words after "Act" in the first line, for the purpose of substituting "from and after the passing of the Act no new Judge shall be appointed for any Manor Court." He wished that these courts should be allowed to die out. No Member of the Government had given the Committee the slightest approximation to the probable amount of expenses. He granted these courts ought to be abolished; but at the same time there ought to be some statement from Ministers as to what the effect of the measure might be. The expense, for aught that appeared, might be £5000, £10,000, or £20,000, and the Committee really ought to be told what the amount was likely to be. It was said that the stamp duties would provide for the expense, but those duties would go into a fund at Dublin Castle, out of which petty sessions clerks were to be paid. The preliminary stamp would be 6d. on each pro cess. Would the Government say that the compensations should all be paid out of that stamp? MR. WHITESIDE said, he had in this Bill followed exactly the course pursued in England, in which, on the establishment of County Courts, local courts were abolished, their officers receiving compensation; and he thought it would be contrary go to the Assistant Barrister's Court, which only sat at intervals of two or three months. He thought the latter courts might be made to sit more frequently. MR. SPAIGHT said, that as the life or death of the Bill depended upon the vote the Committee was about to give, he would suggest that the question at issue was entirely a trial between principle and expediency. Now, no one could doubt that the Manor Courts of Ireland were a disgrace to the administration of justice, and that the chief sufferers from them were the poorer classes. He was acquainted with one of those courts, not one hundred miles away from the place where he lived, which was presided over by a person who neither by station nor acquirements was fitted for a judicial office, and it was understood in that court that the party who offered the handsomest present had the best chance of success. He trusted, therefore, that the Committee would not throw over a Bill which every one admitted was necessary and its principle a sound and just one, merely because it would involve some pecuniary cost, especially as Parliament had not hesitated to give compensation for the removal of similar nuisances in this country. MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, he was unwilling that the Bill should be lost simply on financial grounds. It was a measure that was calculated to do great good in Ireland, and he recommended his right hon. and learned Friend to allow the clause to pass. MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, that seeing the general opinion of the Committee was in favour of the withdrawal of his Amendment, he would consent to do so. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 2 and 3. Clause 4 (Compensation to Seneschals or Stewards of Manor Courts). MR. GROGAN said, he would move, as an Amendment, to omit the word "steward" and insert the words "other MR. RICHARDSON said, that the the sooner these courts were got rid of the Manor Courts in Ireland were not fairly better. represented by the instance given by the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Spaight). There was a Manor Court in his own neighbourhood, which was presided over by a man of ability, high character, and a magistrate of the county, and that up to this moment he had never heard a single complaint against that gentleman's decisions. It would be wrong, therefore, for the Committee to adopt the impression that all the Manor Courts in Ireland were equally worthless and improperly conducted. It was a matter of great importance that a substitute should be found for these MR. DAVISON said, he had had much courts in the event of their being dispensed experience of these courts, and, in his with. And whilst the subject of compen- opinion, there was not another officer sation was under discussion he thought it besides the seneschal who was entitled would be only fair to take into account the to one farthing of compensation. Genecompensation which ought to be given to the rally speaking, he believed it would be registrars of the courts, who, in his view, found that the registrars were clerks in had as much right to be compensated for the office of the seneschal or steward, and the loss of their offices as the Judges them- paid by him at salaries. It would be monselves. strous, therefore, to award them compensation. MR. SPAIGHT said, he did not mean to pass a sweeping censure upon every person who presided in a Manorial Court in Ireland. He only spoke so far as his own experience went. MR. MONSELL said, that with respect to what had been said upon the necessity of finding a substitute, he might remind the Committee that in many parts of Ireland Manor Courts did not exist at all, and that in his own neighbourhood, where that was the case, not the slightest difficulty or inconvenience had been felt from their absence. As to compensation, the amount that would probably accrue to the Consolidated Fund from the stamps and expenses which the suitors had to pay, he presumed, upon an average, would be 2s. 6d. or 3s. a case; the Report of the Committee set the average at about 4s. 6d.; so that it was easy to measure by that the slight deficiency which would have to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. The principle of compensation had been recognized in the courts of this country where a great public advantage had accrued by the expenditure of a not very large amount of money, and it would be rather hard not to apply the same principle in this case. MR. BEAMISH suggested that the Amendment should be withdrawn; for, if the first clause were rejected, the Bill would necessarily fall to the ground; and officers" instead thereof. MR. VANCE said, he should support the Amendment, as there were registrars and marshals to some of these courts in Dublin. MR. WHITESIDE said, he could not consent to admit the claim of the registrars to compensation unless they could show that they were in the receipt of legal fees that would be taken away from them by this Bill. MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, that if they adopted the Amendment of the hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Grogan) they would open the door to every officer of the court to claim compensation, and they would never know where it was to cease. MR. GROGAN replied, that if the officers of the court had no legal claim, of course they would get nothing; but let not the Committee, by their legislation, do a practical injustice, and shut them out from the possibility of establishing a just claim if they had one. LORD NAAS said, he believed the registrars did not derive any emoluments from fees which were levied according to law. He presumed they were appointed and paid by the seneschal out of his fees. That being so they could have no claim for compensation under this Bill. MR. RICHARDSON said, he had received a letter from the registrar of a Manor Court, in which the writer stated that for thirteen years he had been paid in salary and fees, and that he considered it a hard case that he should now be dismissed from an office which he had expected to hold for life without obtaining any compensation. The proposition of the hon. Member (Mr. Grogan) was a fair one. MR. HATCHELL remarked, that if Parliament were bound to compensate the seneschal they were also bound to compensate other officers who had an equally legal claim. MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, that these officers were recognized by the Act 7 & 8 Geo. IV., c. 59, s. 5, and that in the list of fees attached to that Act were enumerated those which were to be paid to the registrar as well as the seneschal of a Manor Court. MR. KIRK said, he objected to the use of the word "officer," as that might include the person who swept the floor. MR. WHITESIDE said, he proposed to amend the clause by inserting after the word "steward" the following words, registrar or marshal of any Manor Court where such officer has been created by the charter of such manor respectively." Motion, by leave, withdrawn. MR. WHITESIDE said, he must object to the Amendment as one for which there was no precedent whatever. Amendment negatived. MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, he had to move an Amendment, the effect of which would be to allow the Treasury to inquire into the conduct of the officers of those courts previous to granting them compensation. MR. WHITESIDE said, he had no ob jection to the Amendment. MR. J. D. FITZGERALD observed, that the Treasury, as now constituted, could never inquire into the conduct of these 300 officers of Manor Courts. In fact the Amendment would impose duties on the Treasury which they would not be able to perform. MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, he believed the effect of this Amendment would be to deter those officers who were conscious of malversation from making any application for compensation at all. MR. DE VERE remarked, that he was afraid his hon. and learned Friend took too sanguine a view of the consciences of those gentlemen. MR. WHITESIDE said, he quite agreed in the object of the Amendment, but he felt it would be difficult to make the inquiry proposed, and he would, therefore, abide by the clause as it stood. Amendment negatived. MR. KIRK said, he would now propose an Amendment to prevent compensation being given for the loss of emoluments and confine it to legal fees. Amendment proposed to leave out the words" and emoluments." MR. WHITESIDE said, he had followed the words of the English Act, and must therefore oppose the Amendment. Question put, That the words and Emoluments,' stand part of the Clause. The Committee divided: Ayes 40; Noes 46: Majority 6. On the Question that the clause as amended stand part of the Bill, MR. WILLIAMS said, he should oppose the clause altogether. They had a proposition for giving compensation to parties of whom they knew nothing; of the manner in which they performed their duties they knew nothing; and of the amount of compensation to be given they knew nothing. Under such circumstances he must object to its being paid out of the taxes of this country. MR. WHITESIDE said, he must admit that he knew little of the amount of compensation to be given, but he believed the hon. Gentleman opposite knew less. He had followed the precedent set in the English Bill, and he would remind the hon. Gentleman that this measure would secure a great practical boon to the country, which could not be got without compensation to the present officers, which, after all, he believed would not amount to much. MR. COX said, he should support the Amendment on the ground that the Committee had no information either as to the number of men to be compensated, or the sum to be given them. The Committee was asked to vote in the dark. SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE explained that the precedent was drawn from the English Bill, and the compensation was strictly limited to those who were actually in office. The only difference was that greater precautions were taken against abuse. There was no fixed sum to be given, but the Treasury was empowered to inquire into all the circumstances of each court and award them compensation accordingly. There need be no fear that the Treasury would exercise their discretion with a view to the strictest economy. MR. SPAIGHT objected to the expression of the hon. Member for Lambeth, (Mr. W. Williams) that the charge of this compensation would fall upon English taxpayers. It would be defrayed out of the Imperial purse, and would therefore, equally affect both Irish and English contributors to the Imperial revenues. MR. WALPOLE explained the circumstances under which compensation was given to the Six Clerks in Chancery, to which reference had been made, and the error which was committed in fixing its amount; and argued that no parallel could be drawn between such compensation and that provided for by the clause under dis cussion. MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, that if these offices were to be abolished their holders, must, in justice, receive compensation, and he should therefore vote for the clause. Question put, "That Clause 4, as amended, stand part of the Bill." The Committee divided: Ayes 91; Noes 12: Majority 79. Clause added. Clause 5. MR. MAGUIRE said, he moved that the word "two" be substituted for the word "one" in line 24. His object was to give the Petty Sessions Court, which was a cheap and an easily accessible Court, jurisdiction for the recovery of debts to the amount of £2. MR. COGAN supported the Amendment. MR. WHITESIDE said, it was quite a novel proposal to give the petty sessions jurisdiction in matters of contract, except between master and servant and in questions arising out of fairs and markets, but he would agree to the Amendment. Amendment made accordingly. MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, he would suggest that the court should have the power of awarding costs to an amount not exceeding 5s. MR. WHITESIDE said, he would accept the suggestion. Clause as amended, agreed to. Clause 7 and 8 agreed to. House adjourned at Five o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, February 24, 1859. MINUTES.] Sat First in Parliament.-The Lord Northwick-after the Death of his Uncle. PUBLIC BILLS.-1a Law of Evidence further Amendment. 2a Ecclesiastical Courts and Registries (Ireland). MANNING THE NAVY. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY rose to put a Question with reference to the Report of the Commissioners on Manning the Navy, which had just been presented to both Houses of Parliament by order of Her Majesty. It was usual to annex, to the Report a copy of the Commission under which the Commissioners acted, so that it might be seen what were the powers given them by the Commission. He observed that that was not done in the present case, and he wished to know why it was omitted. He also observed that the Report was not signed by all the Commissioners. The signature of Mr. Lindsay, one of the most active and intelligent Members of the Commission, was wanting; and he wished to know why this was the case? THE EARL OF HARDWICKE said, that the object of the Government was to place the Report of the Commission on the tables of the two Houses with all possible speed, and that immediately it had been received by the Secretary of State it had been presented to Her Majesty, and had been then laid at once upon the table. If any informality had been committed by a copy of the Commission itself not having been presented with the Report, that should be remedied, it should be printed in the Appendix to the Report. The Report and Appendix should be immediately laid before Parliament in a complete shape. With regard to the second Question, he understood that Mr. Lindsay had declined to sign the Report and had drawn up a paper of his own on the subject. He begged to add that that also should be placed in the Appendix. The reason why it had not appeared with the Report, was, as he said before, the great anxiety that the Government felt that the Report should be in the hands of Members before the Navy Estimates were proposed. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, he had no doubt that the noble Lord would recollect the course that had been taken in |
