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COMMITTEE.

hesitate to impose the compensation upon to sound policy to apply one rule to Engthe Consolidated Fund.

land and another to Ireland. There alMr. MONSELL said, he wished to ask ready existed power in the Privy Council whether the suitor in the Petty Sessions to direct the County Courts in Ireland to Court was not subjected by this Bill to a hold more frequent sittings. double payment ?

MR. WILSON said, he desired to know MR.WHITESIDE replied in the if it was to be understood that these courts negative.

were not to be abolished until a proper SIR DENHAM NORREYS observed, substitute was found to supply their place? it was evident that the stamp duties must MR. WHITESIDE said, there were be granted.

County Courts in every county in Ireland, Resoloed—That the following Stamp and power was given by the Act of ParliaDuties shall be charged on Forns of Pro- ment to order them to hold their sittings cess to be served on Defendants under the more freqnently, and also to sit in districts said Act:

where they had never sat before. This §. d.

would be sufficient for dealing with all cases For every original Proof

of importance ; whilst there were not less For every Copy thereof served

06 than 570) courts in Ireland which sat every For every Certificate on Appeal

week to settle cases of 20s. and under. Resolution to be reported To-morrow. Sir DENHAM NORREYS said, the

Manor Courts enabled persons to recover

small debts every three weeks, whereas if THE MANOR COURTS, &c. (IRELAND BILL). this Bill passed parties would be obliged to

go to the Assistant Barrister's Court, which Bill considered in Committee.

only sat at intervals of two or three months. (In the Committee).

He thought the latter courts might be Clause 1.

made to sit more frequently. MR. J. D. FITZGERALD moved the Mr. SPAIGHT said, that as the life or omission of all the words after “Act" in the death of the Bill depended upon the vote first line, for the purpose of substituting the Committee was about to give, he would “ from and after the passing of the Act no suggest that the question at issue was ennew Judge shall be appointed for any tirely a trial between principle and exManor Court.” He wished that these pediency. Now, no one could doubt that courts should be allowed to die out. No the Manor Courts of Ireland were a dis. Member of the Government had given the grace to the administration of justice, and Committee the slightest approximation to that the chief sufferers from them were the probable amount of expenses.

He the poorer classes. He was acquainted granted these courts ought to be abolished; with one of those courts, not one hundred but at the same time there ought to be miles away from the place where he lived, some statement from Ministers as to what which was presided over by a person who the effect of the measure might be. The neither by station nor acquirements was expense, for aught that appeared, might fitted for a judicial office, and it was underbe £5000, £10,100, or £20,000, and the stood in that court that the party who Committee really ought to be told what the offered the handsomest present had the amount was likely to be. It was said that best chance of success. He trusted, therethe stamp duties would provide for the ex- fore, that the Committee would not throw pense, but those duties would go into a over a Bill which every one admitted was fund at Dublin Castle, out of which petty necessary and its principle a sound and sessions clerks were to be paid. The pre- just one, merely because it would involve liminary stamp would be 6d. on each pro. some pecuniary cost, especially as Parliacess. Would the Government say that the ment had not hesitated to give compencompensations should all be paid out of sation for the removal of similar nuisances that stamp ?

in this country. MR. WAITESIDE said, he had in this MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, he was unBill followed exactly the course pursued in willing that the Bill should be lost simply England, in which, on the establishment on financial grounds. It was a measure that of County Courts, local courts were abo. was calculated to do great good in Ireland, lisheil, their officers receiving compensa. and he recommended his right hon. and tion ; and be thought it would be contrary learved Friend to allow the clause to pass.

as

an

MR. RICHARDSON said, that the the sooner these courts were got rid of the Manor Courts in Ireland were not fairly better. represented by the instance given by the MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, that hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Spaight). seeing the general opinion of the CommitThere was

a Manor Court in his own tee was in favour of the withdrawal of his neighbourhood, which was presided over Amendment, he would consent to do so. by a man of ability, high character, and a Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. magistrate of the county, and that up to Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 2 this moment he had never heard a single and 3. complaint against that gentleman's deci- Clause 4 (Compensation to Seneschals sions. It would be wrong, therefore, for or Stewards of Manor Courts). the Committee to adopt the impression MR. GROGAN said, he would move, that all the Manor Courts in Ireland were

Amendment, to omit the word equally worthless and improperly conduct- “ steward” and insert the words “ other ed. It was a matter of great importance officers " instead thereof. that a substitute should be found for these MR. DAVISON said, he had had much courts in the event of their being dispensed experience of these courts, and, in his with. And whilst the subject of compen- opinion, there was not another officer sation was under discussion he thought it besides the seneschal who was entitled would be only fair to take into account the to one farthing of compensation. Genecompensation which ought to be given to the rally speaking, he believed it would be registrars of the courts, who, in his view, found that the registrars were clerks in had as much right to be compensated for the office of the seneschal or steward, and the loss of their offices as the Judges them- paid by him at salaries. It would be monselves.

strous, therefore, to award them compenMR. SPAIGHT said, he did not mean sation. to pass a sweeping censure upon every per

MR. VANCE said, he should support son who presided in a Manorial Court in the Amendment, as there were registrars Ireland. "He only spoke so far as his own and marshals to some of these courts in experience went.

Dublin. MR. MONSELL said, that with respect MR. WHITESIDE said, he could not to what had been said upon the necessity consent to admit the claim of the registrars of finding a substitute, he might remind to compensation unless they could show that the Committee that in many parts of Ire- they were in the receipt of legal fees that land Manor Courts did not exist at all, and would be taken away from them by this that in his own neighbourhood, where that Bill. was the case, not the slightest difficulty or MR. SERJE DEASY said, that if inconvenience had been felt from their ab- they adopted the Amendment of the hon.

As to compensation, the amount Member for Dublin (Mr. Grogan) they that would probably accrue to the Con- would open the door to every officer of the solidated Fund froni the stamps and ex- court to claim compensation, and they penses which the suitors had to pay, he would never know where it was to cease. presumed, upon an average, would be

MR. GROGAN replied, that if the officers 2s. 6d. or 3s. a case ; the Report of the of the court bad no legal claim, of course Committee set the average at about 4s. 6d.; they would get nothing ; but let not the so that it was easy to measure by that the Committee, by their legislation, do a pracslight deficiency which would have to be tical injustice, and shut them out from the paid out of the Consolidated Fund. The possibility of establishing a just claim if principle of compensation had been recog. they had one. nized in the courts of this country where LORD NAAS said, he believed the rea great public advantage had accrued gistrars did not derive any emoluments by the expenditure of a not very large from fees which were levied according to amount of money, and it would be rather law. He presumed they were appointed hard not to apply the same principle in and paid by the seneschal out of bis fees. this case.

That being so they could have no claim MR. BEAMISH suggested that the for compensation under this Bill. Amendment should be withdrawn; for, if MR. RICHARDSON said, he had rethe first clause were rejected, the Bill ceived a letter from the registrar of a would necessarily fall to the ground; and Manor Court, in which the writer stated

sence.

that for thirteen years he had been paid in MR. DE VERE remarked, that he was salary and fees, and that he considered it afraid bis hon. and learned Friend took a hard case that he should now be dis- too sanguine a view of the consciences of missed from an office which he had ex- those gentlemen. pected to hold for life without obtaining MR. WHITESIDE said, he quite agreed any compensation. The proposition of the in the object of the Amendment, but he hon. Member (Mr. Grogan) was a fair one. felt it would be difficult to make the in

MR. HATCHELL remarked, that if quiry proposed, and he would, therefore, Parliament were bound to compensate abide by the clause as it stood. the seneschal they were also bound to com- Amendment negatived. pensate other officers who had an equally

MR. KIRK said, he would now propose legal claim.

an Amendment to prevent compensation MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, that being given for the loss of emoluments and these officers were recognized by the Act confine it to legal fees. 7 & 8 Geo. IV., c. 59, s. 5, and that Amendment proposed to leave out the in the list of fees attached to that Act words “ and emoluments.” were enumerated those which were to be MR. WHITESIDE said, he had follow. paid to the registrar as well as the seneschaled the words of the English Act, and must of a Manor Court.

therefore oppose the Amendment. MR. KIRK said, he objected to the use

Question put,

That the words and of the word officer, as that might in. Emoluments,' stand part of the Clause." clude the person who swept the floor. The Committee divided : Ayes 40;

MR. WHITESIDE said, he proposed Noes 46: Majority 6. to amend the clause by inserting after the On the Question that the clause as word “steward” the following words, amended stand part of the Bill, “ registrar or marshal of any Manor Court MR. WILLIAMS said, he should oppose where such officer has been created by the the clause altogether. They had a procharter of such manor respectively." position for giving compensation to parties Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

of whom they knew nothing ; of the manAmendment made.

ner in which they performed their duties Mr. BLAKE said, he should move in they knew nothing ; and of the amount line 37 of the same clause, after the word of compensation to be given they knew

office,” the insertion of the words, " and nothing: Under such circumstances he every permanent president of every Court must object to its being paid out of the of Conscience, such as Waterford, whose taxes of this country. emoluments may become diminished by MR. WHITESIDE said, he must admit reason of the passing of this Act.” that he knew little of the amount of com

MR. WHITESIDE said, he must ob- pensation to be given, but he believed the ject to the Amendment as one for which hon. Gentleman opposite knew less. He there was no precedent whatever. had followed the precedent set in the Amendment negatived.

English Bill, and he would remind the hon. MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, he had to Gentleman that this measure would secure move an Amendment, the effect of which a great practical boon to the country, which would be to allow the Treasury to inquire into could not be got without compensation to the conduct of the officers of those courts the present officers, which, after all, he previous to granting them compensation, believed would not amount to much.

MR. WHITESIDE said, he had no ob. MR. COX said, he should support the jection to the Amendment.

Amendment on the ground that the ComMR. J. D. FITZGERALD observed, mittee had no information either as to the that the Treasury, as now constituted, number of men to be compensated, or the could never inquire into the conduct of sum to be given them. The Committee these 300 officers of Manor Courts. In was asked to vote in the dark. fact the Amendment would impose duties SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE exon the Treasury which they would not be plained that the precedent was drawn from able to perform

the English Bill, and the compensation was MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, he be strictly limited to those who were actually lieved the effect of this Amendment would in office. The only difference was that be to deter those officers who were con- greater precautions were taken against scious of malversation from making any abuse. There was no fixed sum to be application for compensation at all. given, but the Treasury was empowered to inquire into all the circumstances of each

HOUSE OF LORDS, court and award them compensation accordingly. There need be no fear that the Thursday, February 24, 1859. Treasury would exercise their discretion with a view to the strictest economy.

Minutes.] Sat First in Parliament.--The Lord

Northwick—after the Death of his Uncle. MR. SPAIGHT objected the expres- Public Bills.—1« Law of Evidence further sion of the hon. Member for Lambeth, Amendment. (Mr. W. Williams) that the charge of this

2a Ecclesiastical Courts and Registries (Irecompensation would fall upon English tax.

land). payers. It would be defrayed out of the

MANNING THE NAVY. Įmperial purse, and would therefore, equally affect both Irish and English contributors

QUESTION. to the Imperial revenues.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY rose MR. WALPOLE explained the circum- to put a Question with reference to the stances under which compensation was Report of the Commissioners on Manning given to the Six Clerks in Chancery, to the Navy, which had just been presented which reference had been made, and the to both Houses of Parliament by order of error which was committed in fixing its Her Majesty. It was usual to annex, to amount; and argued that no parallel could the Report a copy of the Commission be drawn between such compensation and under which the Commissioners acted, so that provided for by the clause under dis- that it might be seen what were the pow. cussion.

ers given them by the Commission." He MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, that if observed that that was not done in the these offices were to be abolished their present case, and he wished to know why holders, must, in justice, receive compensa- it was omitted. He also observed that the tion, and he should therefore vote for the Report was not signed by all the Commisclause.

sioners. The signature of Mr. Lindsay, Question put, “That Clause 4, as amend one of the most active and intelligent ed, stand part of the Bill.”

Members of the Commission, was wanting ; The Committee divided : Ayes 91 ; and he wished to know why this was the Noes 12: Majority 79.

case ? Clause added.

THE EARL OF HARDWICKE said, that Clause 5.

the object of the Government was to place MR. MAGUIRE said, he moved that the Report of the Commission on the the word “two” be substituted for the tables of the two Houses with all possible word "one" in line 24. His object was speed, and that immediately it had been to give the Petty Sessions Court, which received by the Secretary of State it had was a cheap and on easily accessible Court, been presented to Her Majesty, and had jurisdiction for the recovery of debts to been then laid at once upon the table. If the amount of £2.

any informality had been committed by a MR. COGAN supported the Amendment. copy of the Commission itself not hav

MR. WHITESIDE said, it was quite a ing been presented with the R-port, that novel proposal to give the petty sessions should be remedied, it should be printed in jurisdiction in matters of contract, except the Appendix to the Report. The Report between master and servant and in ques- and Appendix should be inmediately laid tions arising out of fairs and markets, but before Parliament in a complete shape. he would agree to the Amendment. With regard to the second Question, be Amendment made accordingly.

understood that Mr. Lindsay had declined MR. SERJEANT DEASY said, he would to sign the Report and had drawn up a suggest that the court should have the paper of his own on the subject. He begpower of awarding costs to an amount not ged to add that that also should be placed exceeding 5s.

in the Appendix. The reason why it had MR. WHITESIDE said, he would ac- not appeared with the Report, was, as he said cept the suggestion.

before, the great anxiety that the GovernClause as amended, agreed to.

ment felt that the lieport should be in the Clause 6 postponed.

hands of Members before the Navy EstiClause 7 and 8 agreed to.

mates were proposed. Committee report progress ; to sit again LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, To-morrow.

he had no doubt that the noble Lord would Houso adjourned at five o'clock. recollect the course that had been taken in

and as

other cases where some Members of the Office officials. There was no such analogy Commission had disagreed with the Report ; as had been attempted to be drawn be. and that course could be followed in the pre-tween this case and that of opening letters sent instance.

at the Dead-letter Office. In the latter

case it was necessary in order that the THE IONIAN ISLANDS.

letters might be returned, and nobody QUESTION.

could object to it ; but by the recent order EARL GREY wished to know when the inviolability hitherto afforded to the their Lordships might expect the Papers correspondence of the country was for the connected with the Ionian Question,' in. first time and he trusted for the last cluding Mr. Gladstone's Commission, to be time - invaded for the purpose of comlaid before their Lordships.

pelling Her Majesty's subjects to take THE EARL OF DERBY : It is quite true a particular course in forwarding their that the formal documents will soon be in letters. Before the order was issued there the hands of Her Majesty's Government; were 2,500,000 letters posted annually but, on the other hand, to lay the papers without stamps. How was this number of upon the table opens the door to the dis letters to be opened and read ? It would cussion of the general subject, and I do cause a glut of letters at the Post Office. not think that this Question ought to come To give power to open 2,500,000 letters before the House at present in a general was an entire departure from the principle debate. I have not the least wish to on which the Post Office of this country delay the production of the papers un- had hitherto been conducted. It was said necessarily. We are expecting daily the that, at the present time, the unpaid final decision of the Ionian Legislature letters caused delay in the delivery of those upon the propositions made to them ; that were stamped, but, if the unpaid

soon after that as possible i letters were excluded from the first dewill take care that the Papers, including livery, the object as to the paid letters the Commission, shall be laid upon the would be attained, and the unpaid letters table. Mr. Gladstone is now at Venice ; might be despatched by the second post. he will be at Turio on the 3rd ; in Paris The order must give great additional laon the 9th ; and will probably arrive in bour to the Post Office, and it would be London a day or two after. Under these attended with great inconvenience to the circumstances I shall be glad if the noble public. The noble Lord then moved forEarl will consent to postpone his Motion

“Copy of a Letter from the Postmaster General till the 14th instend of the 7th of March. to the Treasury, dated the 15th Day of January, I will endeavour meanwhile to have the of compulsory Prepayment to Inland Letters ; and

1859, requesting Authority to extend the System papers laid the table, and we shall of the Treasury Warrant sanctioning such Extenthen be ready to go into a discussion of sion.” the whole question. I should prefer to

LORD COLCHESTER said, he could have all the Papers laid upon the table at have no objection to the production of the the same time.

paper for which the noble Lord had moved, EARL GREY said, he would accede to for the fact was it was already on the table the proposal of the noble Earl.

of the other House. The suggestion that

unpaid letters should be kept back for a POST OFFICE-UNPAID LETTERS.

later delivery would effect one object ; but

the Post Office in making the regulation QUESTION.

had two objects in view-namely to facili. Lord MONTEAGLE rose to draw the tate the delivery, and to simplify the acattention of the Postmaster General to counts. No doubt the opening of the the recent order with reference to Unpaid letters was a necessary consequence of the Letters, and moved for the production of plan ; but surely it was for the convenience Papers relating thereto. He objected to of the public that they should be opened the power of opening letters assumed in and returned to the writers, rather than this order by the Post Office authorities. that they should lie unopened at the Post So long as the necessary power of opening Office. And with regard to the violation letters was in the hands of the Government of correspondence, he might observe that there was some security against its abuse, although the number of letters daily passfor it was known that the Secretary of ing through the Post Office misdirected was State was responsible ; but now it was to nearly 6,000, the number of letters opened be left solely in the hands of the Post at the Post Office daily was less now than

upon

PAPERS MOVED FOR.

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