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ment wished to erect into a corporation scientious ohjections to its continuance. with perpetual succession. Again, he He thought it a very reasonable thing to could not suppose how the Government allow lords of manors to give waste land, could entertain the idea that they would but had omitted from his Bill a clause be able to set at rest at once and for ever drawn with that object. a question they had been unable for so Motion made, and Question proposed, long a period to settle from year to year. It “ That the Bill be now read a second was wholly impracticable. How could they time." settle what the rates had been for the last MR. COLLINS said, he should move as ten or twenty years, seeing that in many an Amendment, that the Bill be read a instances half of the rates were voluntary, second time on Monday next. while the other half had been compulsory ? Amendment proposed, to leave out the It would be also necessary to see how the word now,' and at the end of the Quesfabrics of the church had been maintained. tion to add the words “

upon Monday How could they now strike an average for next." fifteen or twenty years, when in some Mr. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he parishes the fabric was neglected, and also would recommend postponement, which others spent thousands upon it? In addi- would tend much to the convenience of the tion to this the Government Bill did not House, for then the discussion upon the satisfy him as to the period when there three Bills might come on together. He would be a discharge of the parish from had no doubt that the hon. Member for church rates, as it depended on the Govern- Tavistock (Sir J. Trelawny), in the course ment to advise the Queen in Council at he had taken, fully intended to give the wbat period that discharge should be given. Government measure fair consideration. In his Bill he preferred to make use of the MR. FITZROY said, he rose to order ; machinery of the Charity Commissioners the hon. Member was discussing a Bill not who already had under their administra- before the House. tion property to the value of £1,200,000. MR. DARBY GRIFFITH only meant They administered more than 20,000 to say that he should persist in the Amendcharities, varying in value from 10s. ment of which he had given notice if the to £35,000. Those Commissioners would hon. Baronet's Bill was pressed. have the judgment and the discrimi. MR. SOUTHERON-ESTCOURT said, nation to use such powers as he pro- he also must urge postponement until the posed to confer on them. The body which other two Bills on the same subject were would have to deal with such a subject brought forward. It would be most inought to be in possession of a very large convenient, under such circumstances as margin, in order to deal justly with the these, to allow the Bill to go through any fabric of the Church and with the rate- stage by which the House might be compayers. His Bill was entirely permissive; promised as to its principle. he asked for no change in the law, but only MR. ALCOCK said, he would consent (he repeated) the establishment of per- to a postponement of the second reading of missive provisions. No Churchman, there his measure. fore, ought to object to it. He proposed Question, " That the word • now,''stand that persons should be allowed to charge part of the Question," pul, and negatived. their estates, or to give money, for the Words added. repair of churches; and, although it might Main Question, as amended, put and be said that they could do so now, it must agreed to. be remembered such liberality was checked Second Reading deferred till Monday by the possibility of a legal church rate next. being also imposed. He did not propose to touch the Mortmain Act, but he thought

ELECTIONS, &c. BILL. it might be relaxed a little, as had been done with respect to the gift of tithes. He adopted a provision in the Charity Act, Order for Second Reading read. which would allow of a charge on land, Mr. COLLINS said, he rose to move made for the repair of a church, being ex- the second reading of this Bill, the object tinguished by the investment of money in of which was to assimilate the time of the Funds, to meet the case of land so giving notice of elections all over the king. charged afterwards passing into the pos- dom, and also for assimilating the time session of a Dissenter, who might have con allowed for polling in Ireland, namely, two


days, to the system pursued in England, tice. He (the Attorney General) had which confined it to one day. As, how often heard the hon. Gentleman urge the ever, there was some difficulty about the propriety of granting an equal measure latter proposition, he should not press that of justice to both countries. He should clause which referred to it. The next pro. be able to direct the hon. Gentleman's vision was to alter the period of elections attention to measures of a precisely similar during the recess of Parliament, which was character which had been passed for Engnow fourteen days, to six. Another clause land. Now the reasons for the Bill were proposed to reduce the time in which a these : in feudal times there were things in bankrupt Member of the House whose Ireland called manors. The grantee of a bankruptcy was not annulled was allowed manor had power to constitute a court, to hold his seat from twelve months to the Judge of which was supposed to be the four.

seneschal of the manor or the steward. Motion made and Question proposed, Such a system might have been necessary “That the Bill be now read a second in feudal times, but was decidedly most time.”

inapplicable to the present. Occasionally MR. WHITESIDE asked, if the Bill there was found presiding in those courts applied to Ireland,

some men of sense, for whom the people MR. COLLINS said, that the first clause felt much respect ; but the system of those with regard to notices assimilated the prac- courts became very bad from the fact of tices of elections in Ireland and England. the sittings being held in publichouses. The second clause altering the time of The whole subject had been investigated polling in Ireland he should not press. by a Select Committee, which had sat for

MR. J.D. FITZGERALD suggested the three or four Sessions. That Committee postponement of the debate.

made recommendations for the improve. MR. COLLINS assented.

ment of those courts which had never been Debate adjourned till Wednesday next. carried out. Those courts had sometimes

a very large jurisdiction and at other times JURÍES (IRELAND) BILL.

a very small jurisdiction. The decisions of the manor courts were constantly revers.

ed. The assistant barrister's court had Mr. WHITESIDE said, he would ask proved most efficient in working ; meanthat the second reading of this Bill might while the manor courts fell into disuse, but stand over, in order that the subject might were not abolished. It was absurd to be considered with the view to the forma- have two sets of courts existing side by tion of a complete measure.

side, and there was but one opinion in MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he had Ireland upon this question. no objection to take that course, and he MR. KIRK said, that the seneschal of would fix that day fortnight for the second the manor court acted also as returning reading.

officer, and if the manor courts were to be Second Reading deferred till Wednesday abolished there ought to be a provision for

making the sheriff of the county the re

turning officer. The term “emolument" MANOR COURTS, &c. (IRELAND), BILL.

was one of rather wide signification, and

some precise definition of it ought to be COMMITTEE DEFERRED.

given, or otherwise it would give the senesOrder for Committee read.

chals a title to a larger amount of

compenMotion made and Question proposed, sation than they ought to receive. "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the MR. DAVISON said, no greater boon Chair."

than the abolition of the manor courts MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he must could be conferred


Ireland. He complain of the revenue of this country knew something of their administration, being saddled with an annual sum by way and in one court the seneschal was in the of compensation to certain gentlemen whose habit of charging the successful party, offices were to be abolished by this Bill. whether plaintiff or defendant, a shilling

MR. WHITESIDE said, there was to be spent in drink by the jury. A another important branch of the question poor man who had got his case was once involved by this Bill, which would no doubt going away without paying the shilling, interest the hon. Member for Lambethwhich in fact he was unable to raise, and namely the proper administration of jus- the seneschal callod after bim “Ob, very



9th March.

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well-wait till you bring another case into country, they ought all to entertain only this court, and you shall see what happens one view-namely, that of the public good. then.”

He only desired that the profession geneMR. J. D. FITZGERALD urged, that rally should have time to consider the prothe House ought to have more information visions of the measures. supplied as to what would be the financial MR. WHITESIDE said, that when he effect of the measure.

sat on the other side of the House he had MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he must frequent occasion to complain that Irislı demand that the question of compensation business, however important it might be, should take precedence of the other portions was not introduced until late in the Session, of the Bill, which might be discussed after when it was impossible to consider it prothe cost of abolishing these courts should perly. During the recess his right bon. be determined.

Friend the Secretary of State for the Home LORD NAAS observed, that according Department, had urgently pressed upon to the rules of the House, they could not the Irish Government the necessity of proceed with the compensation clauses of being ready with the Irish Bills at an early the Bill until after a Resolution, authorising period, and had himself come over to Ireland compensation to be granted, had been pass for the purpose of arranging personally the ed .n Committee of Supply ; it was there- Irish legislation of the Session. In obefore proposed to take the other clauses of dience to the wishes of the Cabinct these the Bill now.

two Bills had been prepared and laid before MR. DE VERE said, he also must ex. Parliament immediatety on its meeting. press his opinion that the Bill should not If, however, it were understood that hon. be proceeded with until the compensation Gentleman opposite would then be prequestion had been discussed.

pared to discuss and come to a decision on MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he wished to these Bills, he should have no objection to intimate bis intention of dividing the House postpone them for a week or ten days; but upon the Motion that the Speaker leave none of the other Irish Bills which were the Chair.

ready to be introduced would be proceeded Lord NAAS said, in that case he would with until these measures were disposed of. agree to postpone the Bill until after the Second Reading deferred till Thursday, other orders of the day, with the view to 3rd March. let the Resolution on compensation be proposed in the preliminary Committee and then proceed with the Bill.

MANOR COURTS (IRELAND-COMPENMotion made and Question proposed,

SATION, &c. That Mr. Speaker do now leave the


The House in Committee.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Question again proposed,-
Committee deferred till after the other
Orders of the Day.

“That provision be made, out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, for the payment of Compen

sations to Seneschals or Stewards of Manor RECEIVERS IN CHANCERY (IRELAND) Courts in Ireland whose offices may be abolished ABOLITION, &c. BILL.

by any Act of the present Session." SECOND READING DEFERRED.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, it was MR. WHITESIDE moved that the Bill not his intention to oppose the Bill on this be now read the second time.

subject. He thought it a good measure, MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he must and one which would receive support, whepress the right hon. Gentleman to post ther carried in this Session or at a future pone both this Bill and the Sale and Trans- time. The Courts to be abolished were fer of Land (Ireland) Bill for ten days or a held under ancient charters and patents, fortnight, on the ground that they had only and, according to established precedent, just been printed, and there had been no the Committee would have to grant comtime, therefore, to consider them, or to pensation to the Judges of the Courts if communicate with persons in Ireland in they were abolished, and he was at a loss reference to them. Both Bills were of a to understand how they could calculate the large character, and would, if passed, compensation, except upon the full emoluaffect the interests of the people very con- ments of the offices. Before they passed siderably. Io amending the law of the this Resolution, therefore, they ought to

Mr. Davison


have before them a statement, showing be no doubt of their opinion that it was what the financial effect of the measure desirable to make the County Courts more would be. In 1842 a return of the Courts widely available, and to get rid of the Manor was moved for, and was afterwards pre- courts as soon as possible. The seneschal, sented, and it showed that in thirty-two who was appointed by the lord of the manor, counties there were about 193 of these courts, might be a man without learning-nay, but no return was made respecting those devoid even of education or of principlein the County Cork and six other counties. he might be incapable of determining the The emoluments, it appeared, were very value of evidence, and ignorant of the law considerable, and if this measure were which he sat to administer. In the face passed, it would be essential that they of such evils did it become a man who had should provide compensation for all, what. held the high office of Attorney General ever the number of Judges might be, and for Ireland to put in what might be called he believed they considerably exceeded a dilatory plea, because he feared the 200. The course he would suggest was finances of the country might be enthis : that in order to save the large bur- dangered? The objections urged by the den which would inevitably fall upon the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not finances of the country, the House should exist, for by the 14 & 15 Vict., c. 87, it merely pass a measure to prevent any was provided that the Privy Council in Judges being appointed in future to these Ireland might increase the number of places Courts, and, in the meantime, should pro- in counties where the assistant barristers vide for the extension of jurisdiction of the should sit, so that, if the people desired it, County Courts. Until that were done, it extension of jurisdiction could be made was absolutely essential that these Manor under that Act. Moreover, by the existing Courts should be preserved as they now law the magistrates had power to decide existed. They could easily provide for the disputes concerning wages up to £10, and extension of the County Courts and As. disputes at fairs up to £5; and this Bill sistant Barristers' Courts, and make their proposed to give them the decision in cases sittings more frequent and the expenses of small debts, up to 20s., with an appeal of those Courts less. The County Courts to the County Court Judge. He submitted of England and those of Ireland, let it be that a more sensible, reasonable, or useful remembered, were not analagous in their provision could not be made on behalf of the jurisdiction and the manner in which it poor. It was, in fact, a measure for the was exercised. If such a proposition as better administration of justice to the poor. he ventured to suggest were carried out, Government and Parliament existed for in a few years these Manor Courts would the administration of justice, and they disappear, while they would avoid having could not apply a small portion of the forced upon them claims for compensation. finances of the country—to which, it should The delay might enable them to mature a be remembered, all contributed-more well-considered plan for the extension of wisely or more beneficially than in giving the County Courts in Ireland, and the to the poor that justice which they could assimilation of them to those in England.


not obtain in the present extortionate MR. WHITESIDE said, he must con- courts, which were originally nothing better fess he was surprised at the course taken than privileged plunderers. Would the by the right hon. and learned Gentleman Committee, then, hesitate to do for Ireland relative to this measure. He shouid have that which they did for this country when thought that if any Motion would have they established the English County Courts? met with unanimous approval, it would Compensation had been granted to displaced have been that before the Committee. He officers in England, why, then, should not had heard described by the most eminent a similar course be taken with regard to Judges in Ireland the evils that arose from Ireland, especially as the stamp duties, the present system of Manor Courts-per- which it was intended to impose on the jury, falsehood, and perverse litigation. processes that would be issued, would be The late Mr. O'Connell had denounced more than sufficient to cover the comthem, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland pensation? Why, it had been asked, was (Mr. Napier) had declared them to be a not a statement of the amount of compennuisance to the public which required abate- sation brought forward ? He had abstained ment. The Commission which had con- from expressing his intention to introduce sidered the subject had not directly re- the measure, lest returns should be manucommended their abolition, but there could factured as the basis of claims. The word “ emoluments" had been objected to. All shall be voted by Parliament for the purhe could say was, that he found it in the pose." English Acts, but that if it were thought LORD NAAS said, there would be no desirable he would put it out. He had pro- objection on the part of the Government to vided that the Chief Secretary should have make the suggested alteration. power to

order all papers connected with THE CHAIRMAN : Then the question these local courts to be deposited in a will be that the Motion be withdrawn. certain office, and his object was not only MR. WILLIAMS said, he would beg to to preserve the documents, but to enable ask on what ground it was to be withthose who wished to ascertain what the drawn? He wished to take the sense of actual working of any court had been to the House on it. do so accurately. In conclusion, the At- LORD NAAS replied on the ground that torney General said his only object was to instead of providing for the compensation substitute good courts for bad ones. There out of the Consolidated Fund it was to was no way of getting rid of the seneschals be provided out of money to be voted except by giving them compensation; and annually by Parliament for the purpose. he had no doubt that the Gentlemen at the Motion by leave withdrawn. Treasury would taķe care to give them no On a Resolution that certain stamp duties more than they deserved, and perhaps the should be changed on forms of process. amount might turn out to be a great deal MR. WILLIAMŞ said, it was monstrous less than they expected.

for the Committee to be called on to vote MR. DAVISON said, he once had the these stamp duties in the dark. The Comhonour of holding the office of seneschal of mittee did not know either the number of four of these courts for extensive manors, officers, their emoluments, or the sum to and he never realized more than £50 a be voted for compensation. When he obyear out of a court. The amount of com-jected to the compensation given to the pensation could not, therefore, be very Six Clerks he was assured by the legal adlarge. But one of the principal evils that visers of the Crown of that day that the came under his cognisance was this——that amount would not be more than £600 or the disappointed suitors in the County £700 a year, but the sum had proved to be Courts invariably came for a re-hearing to just as many thousands. the Manor Courts.

MR. WHITESIDE said, the hon. Gen. MR. WILSON said, he was quite willing tleman was under some mistake. The to admit that the principle of the Resolu- stamp duties were on the processes issued tion followed the principle of the County by the magistrates with regard to cases Court Bill for this country. With regard to under 20s. the County Courts, it was found necessary

MR. HATCHELL inquired how the to clear away the whole of the local courts, stamp duties were to be applied ? which would only have stood in their way, MR. WHITESIDE said, they would go and therefore nobody could disagree as to to cover the expenses. the necessity, when they were erecting new MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, on the and superior courts, to clear away all the contrary, they would go into the fund inferior tribunals. When this principle which provided for the petty sessions was introduced in England, the local courts clerk, and the public would get nothing were cleared away by degrees, as the other from them. courts were established, so that the op

MR. WHITESIDE remarked that every portunity was not taken away of trying suit for more than 20s. must go into the small causes without furnishing a much County Courts when the Manor Courts were better tribunal than formerly existed. abolished, and would there pay fees and With regard to the amount of compensa- stamps. The stamps mentioned in this tion, he thought it was very moderate. clause were to cover the expenses of the But the chief point to which he wished to small claims in the Petty Sessions Court. advert was particularly applicable to the

MR. HASSARD: The fees do not now Resolution now before the House. It ap- go to the clerks; the clerks are paid by fixed peared that this charge for compensation salaries. We are fighting with a shadow. was to be made on the Consolidated Fund. I do believe that from the quantity of busiNow, he felt it would be much better to ness driven into the County Courts an ample alter this and make it a vote of Parliament fund will be realized to pay all the con

to take the charge off the Consolidated pensations ; but, even if there should be a Fund and charge it on “moneys which deficiency, I do not think we ought to

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