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Natives in those positions for which they were suited, and nothing would tend more to their social improvement. The establishment of guaranteed notes, or some such circulating medium, would be a great advantage, and as the country prospered, the customs would increase sufficiently to meet any change on them. He thought that too gloomy a view had been taken of the financial position of the country, but in any case they should remember that this was not a mere matter of debtor and creditor, they had to provide for the welfare of 150 millions of people.

Resolution agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. FITZROY, Lord STANLEY, and Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.

MARKETS (IRELAND) BILL.

SECOND READING.

town which many years ago abolished tolls of every sort. They were abolished because they were not thought a fit mode of raising money. The collecting of these tolls not only caused trouble, but even rioting throughout Ireland. He was perfectly satisfied that the attempt to revive these tolls would only lead to dissatisfaction and disturbance. The Bill, too, proposed octroi duties, which were never heard of before in Ireland, such as tolls on geese, turkeys, chickens, eggs, and vegetables, and in his opinion the more free the ingress of articles into towns the better. One would almost think the noble Lord had taken a hint from the Emperor of the French in framing the measure. He trusted the noble Lord would not go on with the Bill.

MR. KIRK said, he had hoped that the noble Lord the Irish Secretary would have made this Bill permissive, instead of compulsory. The compulsory powers given by the

LORD NAAS moved the Second Reading Bill would, in fact, prevent the holding of of this Bill.

MR. M.MAHON said, that he entertained many objections to this Bill, but as so many Irish Members were absent, he did not intend to oppose the second reading; unless, however, some alteration were made in its principal provisions, he should feel it his duty to propose Amendments in Committee. The nominal object of the measure was to regulate existing markets in Ireland and provide better accommodation, but its real object was to impose tolls. A free market was as essential to agricul turists as a free port to merchants, but the Government proposed by the present Bill to establish something like the French octroi, and to subject buyers and sellers alike to imposts which, however small in amount, would still operate as a grievance of the most annoying character. He ventured to say that the agricultural Members would, to a man, stand up against the Bill, which would be supported exclusively by the representatives of the towns and boroughs. By the common law of England and Ireland, the buyer paid the tolls in all markets, but this Bill proposed to introduce a new system, and make every person who drove his pig to market pay at his entrance the tolls set out in the schedule. He trusted that as the noble Lord had abandoned half the legacy of the late Government, he would let this Bill go too, especially as, if it even passed the second reading, it must be considerably altered in Committee.

any market. He could well recollect the toll war to which the hon. Member adverted. The reason why tolls were abandoned was, that it was seen by the landlords to be for their own interest to discontinue them. This Bill, however, was more vexatious than the old system. When there was fair cause for a specific charge, as in the case of a bridge, he did not object to it; but, otherwise, it seemed very unfair that taxes should be placed upon articles of consumption. It was, however, more than unfair; it was absurd that a man should be first charged 9d. for bringing a cart of potatoes into the streets of a town, and then charged 2d. per bushel for every bushel of potatoes he sold. He thought that the noble Lord might permit towns regulated by the Town Commissioners Act to manage their own affairs. He would repeat the compulsory powers, if carried into execution, would create a great deal of unnecessary and uncalled-for agitation in Ireland.

MR. M.CARTHY observed that many of the details of the Bill were liable to great objection, and in some instances the tolls charged would be equal to 25 per cent. of the value of the articles brought to market. He, however, understood that the noble Lord would postpone the Committee on the Bill until after the Irish assizes, so that the grand juries would have an opportunity of examining its details, and on that understanding he should not oppose the second reading.

MR. BOWYER said, he hoped that an MR. M'CANN said, he belonged to a endeavour would be made to embody such

improvements in the Bill as would meet | present, no tolls were levied in a market, many of the objections urged against it. a Commissioner should have the power of He also wished to ask the noble Lord settling a schedule of tolls to be levied whether he would take into further consi- within the precincts of that market. The deration the second clause, which vested desirability of providing proper market markets in private individuals. The Town accommodation in Ireland had been reCommissioners of Dundalk and, he was in- peatedly recognized by the House, and formed, other Town Commissioners had his right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. H. presented a petition praying that they Herbert) had last year brought in a meashould be vested in the Town Commis- sure which went even further than the sioners. present Bill, and which, having passed a second reading, was referred to a Select Committee, who appeared entirely to approve the principle now objected to. It was never intended by this Bill to give power to persons to levy tolls for private purposes, or for the purposes of corporations, but simply with a view to furnish the proper requisites for carrying on a market. Besides this, there was a valuable provision for obtaining market statistics, there being at present no means of ascertaining the quantity of agricultural produce brought to market in Ireland. Other regulations of a less im

SIR DENHAM NORREYS said, he thought that the idea which had suggested the question of the hon. and learned Gentleman was founded on a total misapprehension of the Bill. He believed that there never was such a dishonest proposition as the proposition of the parties who put forward the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Bowyer) to ask that question.

For

example, power would be given to justices to decide market disputes up to £30, and the constabulary would be authorized to keep order in the market. The principle of the Bill had in a great measure been derived from the Limerick Act, where the result of regulations very similar to those now proposed had given the greatest possible satisfaction. He should be ready to consider any Amendments in matters of detail, which could be suggested; but he believed that if the became law it would confer a great benefit upon the inhabitants, not only of the towns, but of the agricul tural districts throughout Ireland.

LORD NAAS said, he was astonished at the objections which had been urged against the principle of this Bill. In 1852 a Commission was appointed by the Government of which he was a Member to inquire into the state of markets in Ire-portant kind were also proposed. land. The Gentlemen who served on that Commission travelled through the greater part of the country, and took a mass of evidence, and their Report disclosed such irregularities and fraud practised in the markets, and resulting from want of proper accommodation, that it must now become the absolute duty of the Legislature to interfere. Sometimes, they reported, two sets of weights were kept, one for buying and the other for selling; then there were false beams, slides for inserting a bar of iron into the scale, and springs for deceiving the buyer; or articles were weighed fairly, and then the weight was falsely entered MR. COGAN said, the noble Lord had by a clerk who was in collusion with the certainly not received much encouragement seller, and every species of ingenuity was from those who had hitherto spoken on this displayed by both buyer and seller in their Bill. He wished, however, to know why attempts to rob each other. This Report the Bill did not apply to fairs as well as to had never been contradicted: at the pre-markets, the principle involved in the two sent moment these frauds were practised cases being exactly the same. The proto their full extent; nor was there any visions of the measure would, he believed, remedy, except by providing a proper if properly carried out, afford security in market place, where the buyer and seller their dealings both to buyer and seller; could make their bargains, and where but, while that was his opinion, he could commodities could be weighed, if neces- not approve the 29th clause, which rensary, under the supervision of a re-dered it compulsory upon all parties in that sponsible officer. This, however, could position to sell or buy in market. not be done without money, and power MR. WHITESIDE said, he could not was therefore sought to levy tolls suffi- but express his surprise at hearing hon. cient, and not more than sufficient, to pro- Gentlemen opposite, calling themselves vide the necessary accommodation. The "friends of the people," objecting to a Bill proposed, that in all cases where, at Bill which was only introduced to protect

the people against fraudulent practices, in the places where provisions were sold for general consumption. The reason why fairs were not included within the scope of the Bill was, that in their case those evils did not exist which were complained of in the case of markets.

by these frauds, and also of protecting the
honest trader, who was placed at a disad-
vantage by the competition of the fraudu-
lent trader. In his opinion the Bill was a
just and equitable measure.
Motion agreed to.

Bill read 2o, and committed for Thursday, 3rd of March.

LUNATIC POor (Ireland) bill. SECOND READING. SELECT COMMITTEE

MOVED.

Bill read 2o, and committed. Motion made and Question proposed,That this House will, upon this day fortnight, resolve itself into the said Committee."

MR. H. HERBERT said, he should support the Bill as one whose object was similar to that of a measure which he had introduced last Session upon the same subject. There could be no doubt that some such measure was necessary to protect the people of Ireland from the grossest frauds in their markets and fairs. Proof" of this was found to an overwhelming extent in the blue-book presented by the Commissioners who travelled through the country to inquire into the subject. In many places, although tolls were exacted, the buyers and sellers were left without the slightest accommodation. Let hon. Members read the evidence contained in the Report upon the subject, and they would find that there was scarcely a wit ness amongst the many practical men who were examined before the Commission who did not agree that the country people, although they would resist an arbitrary toll from which they received no benefit, were yet so sensible of the frauds that were committed from the absence of efficient control that they would gladly pay a reasonable sum for the accommodation proposed to be given by this Bill. In taking the course which he did with regard to the second reading, however, he must not be supposed to concur in all the details of the measure, and especially in the opinion that fairs ought to be excluded from the operation of the measure, although he was ready to admit that in dealing with a complicated question such as that under discussion, it might not be undesirable to ascertain, in the first instance, with what success legislation in the case of markets would be attended.

MR. SPAIGHT said, he believed that the lower classes especially, whose champions hon. Members opposite assumed to be, would feel every reason to be grateful to the noble Lord if the Bill passed into a law. The large mercantile community of the city he had the honour to represent (Limerick) had long seen the great abuses which existed in the markets of Ireland, and the gross frauds which were generally practised there, and they felt that some reform was necessary for the double purpose of protecting the farmer, who suffered

MR. BAGWELL said, he should recommend that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, where the subject could be better considered than in that House. The Bill did not appear to be founded upon any evidence, for it was quite opposed to the recommendations of the Royal Commission which had inquired into the subject. The Commissioners proposed that there should be a Central Board sitting in Dublin, whereas the Bill lodged the control virtually in the hands of the grand juries, who were to appoint visitors, of whom one-half would consist of grand jurors or magistrates. By this arrangement the representative element would be completely set aside; for the sheriff was appointed by the Crown, the grand juries by the sheriff, and the proposed committees would be chosen by the grand jurors. In his opinion it was scareely possible for anything more unpopular, and justly unpopular, to be devised. The Bill also failed to provide the necessary accommodation for the lunatic poor in Ireland. At present the asylums in Ireland were mostly tenanted by incurables, and the consequence was that there were a vast number of lunatics who were curable, but could not be received on account of want of accommodation. In the workhouses there were no less than 1,707 poor lunatics. Every one was of opinion that these places were quite unsuitable to such persons. The gaol was no better. Then there were in addition 3,352 poor lunatics living at large among the people. To provide for all these would require a serious outlay. There were now, happily, a number of poor-houses vacant in the country, and what he would recommend was that some of them should be adapted for the purposes of lunatic asylums. There this unfortunate class of the community

would be well taken care of, and at com- | He thought ecconomy might be pushed too paratively small cost to the public. By far, if the regulations were left alone to the such an arrangement humanity would be representatives of the ratepayers, and satisfied and the interests of the taxpayers therefore he would suggest that the reconsulted. The plan had been partly re- commendation of a Commission that incommended by a Commission, and therefore quired into this subject should be adopted, he ventured to propose that the Bill be re- namely, that the Government should have ferred to a Select Committee. power to add to the members of the board certain persons besides those chosen by the ratepayers.

Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the Bill be committed to a Select Committee" instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.

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MR. HASSARD said, he hoped the noble Lord would not accede to the request of the hon. Gentleman. He did not believe the Report of a Select Committee in a matter like this would give satisfaction to the people of Ireland.

SIR DENHAM NORREYS said he agreed with his learned Friend in thinking that the care and well-being of lunatics in asylums ought to some extent to be placed under the superintendence of the Lord Lieutenant.

MR. H. HERBERT said, he wished to draw attention to a circumstance in connection with the Report presented on this subject last Session. That Report had scarcely been printed, or at all events cirAt present the gover-culated, before a letter was published by Dr. Nugent, and apparently under the sanction of the Government. The subject of that letter was to attack the Report of the Commission which, it was alleged, had attacked Dr. Nugent; and he (Mr. H. Herbert) must certainly complain of its tone and temper, and particularly of a passage containing these words :

nors of asylums were appointed entirely by the Lord Lieutenant, and the grand juries had no control over their expenditure. Both these evils would be remedied by the present Bill, by which it was sought to establish a board of visitors for the discharge of duties, those duties in respect to lunatic asylums which had been so usefully and satisfactorily performed by boards of superintendents in the management of gaols. Again, there was at present scarcely any asylum for the admission of lunatics who were in a position by themselves or their friends to pay in whole or in part for their own maintenance; and the Bill would be useful in that respect, since it contained a provision to meet cases of that kind. It would also provide for the safe custody and proper treatment of wandering lunatics, of whom there were many in the country, and with respect to whom, though they were not absolutely insane, the public required protection. On those grounds he hoped the noble Lord would persevere in his Motion for a second reading of the Bill in preference to consenting to its being referred to a Select Committee, which would lead to delay, unaccompanied by the attainment of any good object.

MR. SERJEANT DEASY observed, that he should not oppose the second reading of the Bill which contained much that was valuable. At the same time he thought the ratepayers were not sufficiently represented, and he hoped the noble Lord would not, whilst the ratepayers were duly represented by the grand jurors, neglect the rights of lunatics and of the public at large.

"And to show that in the Commissioners' Report a fair equipose has not been regarded, or at all events that it has the appearance of being one

sided."

This was a curious statement for a person in the position of Dr. Nugent to make.

MR. S. B. MILLER said, he had a very slight acquaintance with Dr. Nugent, but it was due to him to state, that he (Mr. Miller) believed that every observation in his letter was perfectly justified by the facts of the case.

MR. KIRK said, he was acquainted with the facts, and knew that every word Dr. Nugent had said was true, with regard to the case of an asylum at Armagh, which was admirably conducted, but against which there was a prejudice because the conductor was not a medical man.

MR. GREGORY said, he wished to express a hope that the Bill would be allowed to go to a Select Committee, as he was of opinion that a very good measure might be made out of it.

MR. M MAHON said, he wished to ask why should not the boards of guardians have some voice in the selection of visitors? He would suggest that the selection of those persons should not be left entirely to the grand juries, but that the boards of guar

dians, who had the care of the poor under other circumstances, should have a voice in the selection of the visiting committee.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he would support the second reading of the Bill, because the subject was one on which he thought there should be legislation. He could not, however, conceive that there was any danger to the Bill in sending it to a Select Committee, and he hoped the House would adopt that course, especially as the Bill differed materially from the recommendations of the Commissioners. But whilst supporting the second reading of the measure, he must say that he thought there was one objection of considerable weight to it-that objections was, that while the expense of carrying out the system advocated by the noble Lord would be very considerable, no power had been given to the occupiers of land to control those expenses. The whole control had been vested in the visiting committee, who were to be appointed by the grand jury, so that the occupiers would not be represented at all. If they were to have a satisfactory measure, those who paid the rates must be fairly represented. The pauper lunatics under the present system were confined in the workhouses, and by this Bill it was proposed to transfer them to the asylums. Now under the present plan, one half of the expense fell on the landlord, and the other half on the occupier; but by the new system all the expense would be thrown on the occupier, and at the same time no power of controlling those expenses would be given to him. He directed the attention of the noble Lord to these objections, in order that he might see whether they could not be removed. All he wanted was to make the Bill as good a one as possible. With regard to Dr. Nugent's case, he made an appeal on behalf of the five Commissioners, gentlemen who had performed a most disagreeable, laborious, and unpaid duty, in a most able and impartial manner; and he hoped to hear an approval of their conduct from the Government, and that the letter that had been written by Dr. Nugent had not been published with their approval.

LORD NAAS explained, that shortly after the Report of the Commissioners was published, Dr. Nugent represented that he thought the general management of the asylums was very much impugned, and stated that he had prepared a letter for publication on the subject. He (Lord Naas) told him

that he was at liberty to publish it, on his own responsibility, and that, as the subject was coming before the House and the country, for the purposes of legislation, the more it wat discussed the better. He was glad to find that the principle of this Bill had met with such general support, as it was the earnest desire of the Government to provide what was very much wanted in Ireland-namely, increased accommodation for the lunatic poor. The principle of the Bill was clear and definite, it proposed to substitute a local for a governmental or central management and control. The system which had hitherto been pursued was not a good one; the Lord Lieutenant ordered a building to be erected in some distant part of the country, the plans were prepared and put in execution at the instance of the Board of Works, and in many cases the first intimation that the ratepayers of the localities had of these asylums having been built was a demand for payment in the shape of an imperative presentment. The same might be said of their management. Hitherto the Lord Lieutenant had appointed the governors and officers of the asylum. An opportunity now arose for carrying out the great principle that had prevailed for many years that of putting into local hands the management of institutions supported out of local rates. All legislation for the last twenty years had tended in that way, as witness the Municipal Corporation and Poor Law Acts, the Acts for the improvement of fisheries, for vesting works of navigation and drainage in the hands of trustees. The practical working of these different measures had been attended with success, and he could not see why the lunatic asylums of Ireland should be an exemption from so wise a rule. The right hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down appeared to deny that the grand juries represented the ratepayers. That was a matter of opinion; but at any rate, the grand juries were the only fiscal boards in Ireland known to the law; they were entrusted with the levy and disposition of the county funds, and although it might be thought a reform in the constitution of the grand juries was desirable, that was no reason, so long as they existed, for not entrusting to them this duty, which was analogous to the other duties they had to perform. The right hon. and learned Member also charged him with having departed from the recommendations of the Commissioners, but with the exception of

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