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(Mr. Mellor) asked whether it was intended | ing whether or not he would pay
the rate to alter the law with reference to places in a future year. But the most serious objecwhere church rates bad not hitherto been tion raised against the Bill was that stated levied ; and the hon. Member for Sheffield by the noble Lord the Member for London, (Mr. Hadfield) maintained that, if it were The noble Lord had always been a most not so altered, the agitation which had been consistent opponent of the abolition of raised on the subject would only be in church rates. For the course he had taken creased. He thought he had explained on this subject the friends of the Estab. that it was the intention of the Government lished Church owed him a deep debt of not to interfere unnecessarily with the law gratitude, and nothing would give him as it now stood, believing it to be a right greater pain than to find that the Govern. law in itself, though one that, by the force ment were amenable to the imputation of circumstances and the alterations brought which the noble Lord imagined stood about by time, had become in some cases against them when they proposed an exoppressive to those who no longer belonged emption in favour of Dissenters. The to the Church. It was, therefore, not the noble Lord argued in forcible language intention of the Government to alter the law that the principle of an Established Church with regard to those places; and he thought was really involved in that proposition, there existed good reasons why they should Now, the noble Lord himself, in a subnot do so. In the first place, it would be sequent part of his speech, showed dig. wrong to deny to those places which tinctly that this exemption of Dissenters had hither disobeyed the law an oppor had nothing whatever to do with the printunity of obeying it; and, in the second ciple of an Establishment. He said, the place, he thought no hardship could accrue principle of an Establishment was, that to them by leaving the law as it was, be they should have throughout the country, cause a majority could determine, as at and in every part of the country, places of present, to impose the rate if voluntary worship and ministers of religion to meet contributions were not raised by the pa- the spiritual wants of the people. But the rishioners. By leaving the law as it stood, noble Lord could hardly argue from his therefore, they would be encouragiug volun- own premises that the mere fact of extary contributions for the support of the empting one man, or a number of men, fabric of the Church. A question had been from the payment of church rates was a put by the right hon. Member for Radnor destruction of the principle of an Estab(Sir George Lewis) with reference to the lishment, unless the principle meant thiseffect of the clause which enabled occupiers that it was right to enforce on those who to charge the rate against the landlord. did not belong to the Church a compulsory In explaining this part of the Bill he payment of the rato. He thought the omitted to mention the subsequent clause, noble Lord was unduly hard on the meawhich provided that in cases where the sure in this respect. At the end of his landlord was required to pay the rate-in speech he admitted the difficulties that exother words, when the tenant deducted the isted, and seemed almost to think that rate from the rent—the voice which the these difficulties were nearly insurmounttenant formerly possessed in the vestry able. In such circumstances it became a would be transferred to the landlord. The grave question whether some such prohon. Member for Warwickshire (Mr. New position as he (Mr. Walpole) had submitted degate) asked whether it was proposed, in to the House should be adopted, or whegiving exemption on account of conscien-ther matters should be allowed to remain tious objections to the payment of the rate, exactly as they were. If things were to to give the exemption to the land, or only remain as they now were, there would necesto persons. Certainly only to persons, and sarily be a continuance of all the agitation only to persons during the years in which which they wished to put an end to ; but, the rate was levied, for it was not desirable if it was possible to rectify some of the to prevent those who had conscientious ob- evils that existed he preferred that to leavjections to the payment of the rate at one ing the law in its present state of untime from coming back at another, and certainty. The noble Lord said he foresaw subjecting themselves to the charge, as in that church rates were gone, and he (Mr. many cases might be done. He thought Walpole) would say so too; but he and the that when a person had been relieved from noble Lord applied to these words a difthe rate for one year it was but reasonable ferent meaning. The noble Lord meant that he should have an opportunity of say- to infer that church rates would be gone because it would be impossible any longer
SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, he thought to levy them. He (Mr. Walpole) believed it would be more convenient that whatever that church rates would be gone because, discussion might arise on this subject by the voluntary efforts of those who be should be taken on the second reading longed to the Church, it would be found instead of at the present stage. If that possible to maintain the sacred fabrics arrangement met the views of the Governwithout having recourse to a system that ment, he hoped they would fix the second had so long been a source of strife and reading for a day, when the House would contention in many parts of the country. have an opportunity for a full discussion. Before sitting down he wished to make an MR. SLANEY said, he rose to express appeal to the hon. Baronet the Member for his dissent from the gloomy views taken Tavistock (Sir J. Trelawny). The second the other night by the right hon. Member reading of his Bill on church rates stood for Halifax (Sir C. Wood) and others of for Wednesday next. It would be impos- the prospects of Indian finance. The debt sible for the Government to bring forward of India amounted before the mutiny to but their Bill for the second reading on that two years' revenue-a state of things calday. He did not, however, see anything culated, when they considered the boundto prevent the hon. Member laying down less and undeveloped resources of that his own views upon the question either country, to inspire confidence rather than upon the discussion of the Government despondency for the future. The people of Bill or his own measure. What he (Mr. India, who had been ground down for many Walpole) would propose was, that the se. centuries by successive conquerors, only cond reading of the Bill should be put required fair play and good Government to nominally for Monday next, and that the render them happy and prosperous, and to hon. Baronet should have an opportunity secure their attachment to our rule. The of putting the second reading of his Bill present condition of the Natives of that next on the Orders for that day. He pro- country was very unsatisfactory. Essenposed this in order that the two Bills tially an agricultural people, they were the might be debated together and the time worst paid, the worst clothed, and the of the House saved, and it must be evi- worst fed people on the face of the earth. dent that by this means no undue advan. No less than three-fourths of the produce tage would be taken of the hon. Baronet. of the land was exacted from them in the He had now only to thank the House for shape of rent; whereas in this country the the kindness with which it bad received landlord's share did not exceed one-fourth his proposition. By their experience, ob- or one-fifth. If they were properly treated servation, and wisdom, he hoped that they there would, he believed, be an ample would agree upon some scheme which revenue. To develop the resources of the would prove satisfactory to all parties." country, nothing more was needed than
SIR J. TRELAWNÝ said, he was quite good government and security ; when that willing to accede to the proposition of the was done, the large capital secreted right hon. Gentleman, with the understand amongst the Natives would start forth. ing that as early an opportunity as possible The country possessed boundless resources. would be taken after Monday for proceed- which only required capital to develop them. ing with the Bill.
There was, however, au immense amount Motion agreed to.
of capital in this country seeking investBill for facilitating voluntary provision ment, and it would find a boundless field in for the purpose to which Church rates are India. The result would be advantageous applicable, and for the extinction of Church to both countries ; India would furnish raw rates where such provision is made, or- produce, and in exchange take a large dered to be brought in by Mr. Secretary quantity of manufactured goods. Under WALPOLE, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the Exche. such circumstances we should hold our QUER, and Sir John PAKINGTON.
empire, not by fraud and force, but by the ties of mutual interest and gratitude ; our
revenue would materially increase, and the EAST INDIAN LOAN-REPORT. people of India would rise through material Resolution reported :
and moral improvement to that religious “ That it is expedient to enable the Secretary of lle had no doubt but that
advancement which all must wish them. State in Council of India to raise money in the
der the GoUnited Kingdom for the service of the Govern- vernment of the noble Lord every facility ment of India."
would be given for the employment of the Natives in those positions for which they town which many years ago abolished tolls were suited, and nothing would tend more of every sort. They were abolished because to their social improvement. The establish they were not thought a fit mode of raisment of guaranteed notes, or some such ing money. The collecting of these tolls circulating medium, would be a great ad. not only caused trouble, but even rioting vantage, and as the country prospered, the throughout Ireland. He was perfectly customs would increase sufficiently to meet satisfied that the attempt to revive these any change on them. He thought that too tolls would only lead to dissatisfaction and gloomy a view had been taken of the finan- disturbance. The Bill, too, proposed octroi cial position of the country, but in any duties, which were never heard of before in case they should remember that this was Ireland, such as tolls on geese, turkeys, not a mere matter of debtor and creditor, chickens, eggs, and vegetables, and in his they had to provide for the welfare of 150 opinion the more free the ingress of articles millions of people.
into towns the better. One would almost Resolution agreed to.
thivk the noble Lord had taken a hint from Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. the Emperor of the French in framing the FitzRoy, Lord Stanley, and Mr. Chan- measure. He trusted the noble Lord would CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.
not go on with the Bill.
Mr. KIRK said, he had hoped that the
noble Lord the Irish Secretary would have MARKETS (IRELAND) BILL.
made this Bill permissive, instead of compulSECOND READING.
sory. The compulsory powers given by the LORD NAAS moved the Second Reading Bill would, in fact, prevent the holding of of this Bill.
any market. fle could well recollect the toll MR. M.MAHON said, that he enter- war to which the hon. Member adverted. tained many objections to this Bill, but as The reason why tolls were abandoned was, so many Irish Members were absent, he that it was seen by the landlords to be for did not intend to oppose the second read their own interest to discontinue them. ing ; unless, however, some alteration were This Bill, however, was more vexatious made in its principal provisions, he should than the old system. When there was fair feel it his duty to propose Amendments in cause for a specific charge, as in the case Committee. The nominal object of the of a bridge, he did not object to it ; but, measure was to regulate existing markets otherwise, it seemed very unfair that taxes in Ireland and provide better accommoda- should be placed upon articles of consumption, but its real object was to impose tolls. tion. It was, however, more than unfair ; A free market was as essential to agricul it was absurd that a man should be first turists as a free port to merchants, but the charged 9d. for bringing a cart of potatoes Government proposed by the present Bill into the streets of a town, and then charged to establish something like the French 2d. per bushel for every bushel of potatoes octrui, and to subject buyers and sellers he sold. He thought that the noble Lord alike to imposts which, however small in might permit towns regulated by the Town amount, would still operate as a grievance Commissioners Act to manage their own of the most annoying character. He affairs. He would repeat the compulsory ventured to say that the agricultural powers, if carried into execution, would Members would, to a man, stand up against create a great deal of unnecessary and unthe Bill, which would be supported exclu- called for agitation in Ireland. sively by the representatives of the towns MR. M.CARTHY observed that many and boroughs. By the common law of of the details of the Bill were liable to great England and Ireland, the buyer paid the objection, and in some instances the tolls tolls in all markets, but this Bill proposed charged would be equal to 25 per cent. of to introduce a new system, and make every the value of the articles brought to market. person who drove his pig to market pay He, however, understood that the noble at his entrance the tolls set out in the Lord would postpone the Committee on schedule. He trusted that as the noble the Bill until after the Irish assizes, so Lord had abandoned half the legacy of the that the grand juries would have an oppor. late Government, he would let this Bill go tunity of examining its details, and on that too, especially as, if it even passed the understanding he should not oppose the second reading, it must be considerably second reading. altered in Committee.
Mr. BOWYER said, he hoped that an MR. M CANN said, he belonged to a endeavour would be made to embody such
improvements in the Bill as would meet present, no tolls were levied in a market, many of the objections urged against it. a Commissioner should have the power of He also wished to ask the noble Lord settling a schedule of tolls to be levied whether he would take into further consir within the precincts of that market. The deration the second clause, which vested desirability of providing proper market markets in private individuals. The Town accommodation in Ireland had been reCommissioners of Dundalk and, he was in peatedly recognized by the House, and formed, other Town Commissioners had his right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. H. presented a petition praying that they Herbert) had last year brought in a meashould be vested in the Town Commis- sure which went even forther than the sioners.
present Bill, and which, having passed a SIR DENHAM NORREYS said, he second reading, was referred to a Select thought that the idea which had suggested Committee, who appeared entirely to apthe question of the hon. and learned Gentle prove the principle now objected to. It man was founded on a total misapprehen- was never intended by this Bill to give sion of the Bill. He believed that there power to persons to levy tolls for prinever was such a dishonest proposition as vate purposes, or for the purposes
of the proposition of the parties who put for- corporations, but simply with a view to ward the hon. and learned Member (Mr. furnish the proper requisites for carryBowyer) to ask that question.
ing on a market. Besides this, there LORD NAAS said, he was astonished was à valuable provision for obtaining at the objections which had been urged market statistics, there being at present against the principle of this Bill. In no means of ascertaining the quantity of 1852 a Commission was appointed by the agricultural produce brought to market in Government of which he was a Member Ireland. Other regulations of a less imto inquire into the state of markets in Ire- portant kind were also proposed. For land." The Gentlemen who served on that example, power would be given to justices Commission travelled through the greater to decide market disputes up to £30, and part of the country, and took a mass of the constabulary would be authorized to evidence, and their Report disclosed such keep order in the market. The principle irregularities and fraud practised in the of the Bill had in a great measure been markets, and resulting from want of pro- derived from the Limerick Act, where the per accommodation, that it must now be- result of regulations very similar to those come the absolute duty of the Legis- now proposed had given the greatest posJature to interfere. Sometimes, they sible satisfaction. He should be ready to reported, two sets of weights were consider any Amendments in matters of kept, one for buying and the other detail, which could be suggested; but he for selling; then there were false beams, believed that if the became law it would slides for inserting a bar of iron into confer a great benefit upon the inhabitants, the scale, and springs for deceiving the not only of the towns, but of the agricul. buyer; or articles were weighed fairly, tural districts throughout Ireland, and then the weight was falsely entered Mr. COGAN said, the noble Lord had by a clerk who was in collusion with the certainly not received much encouragement seller, and every species of ingenuity was from those who had hitherto spoken on this displayed by both buyer and seller in their Bill. He wished, however, to know why attempts to rob each other. This Report the Bill did not apply to fairs as well as to had
never been contradicted: at the pre- markets, the principle involved in the two sent monsent these frauds were practised cases being exactly the same. to their full extent; nor was there any visions of the measure would, he believed, remedy, except by providing a proper if properly carried out, afford security in market place, where the buyer and seller their dealings both to buyer and seller : could make their bargains, and where but, while that was his opinion, he could commodities could be weighed, if neces not approve the 29th clause, which ren. sary, under the supervision of a re- dered it compulsory upon all parties in that sponsible officer. This, however, could position to sell or buy in market. not be done without money, and power
MR. WHITESIDE said, he could not was therefore sought to levy tolls' suffi- but express his surprise at hearing hon. cient, and not more than sufficient, to pro- Gentlemen opposite, calling themselves vide the necessary accommodation. The friends of the people," objecting to a Bill proposed, that in all cases where, at Bill which was only introduced to protect
the people against fraudulent practices, in | by these frauds, and also of protecting the the places where provisions were sold for honest trader, who was placed at a disadgeneral consumption. The reason why vantage by the competition of the fraudufairs were not included within the scope of lent trader. In his opinion the Bill was a the Bill was, that in their case those evils just and equitable measure. did not exist which were complained of Motion agreed to. in the case of markets.
Bill read 2°, and committed for Thursday, MR. H. HERBERT said, he should | 3rd of March. support the Bill as one whose object was similar to that of a measure which he LUNATIC POOR (IRELAND) BILL. had introduced last Session upon the same subject. There could be no doubt that
MOVED. some such measure was necessary to pro
Bill read 2°, and committed. tect the people of Ireland from the grossest
Motion made and Question proposed, frauds in their markets and fairs. Proof That this House will, upon this day fortof this was found to an overwhelming ex. night, resolve itself into the said Comtent in the blue-book presented by the mittee." Commissioners who travelled through the Mr. BAGWELL said, he should recomcountry to inquire into the subject. In mend that the Bill be referred to a Select many places, although tolls were exacted, Committee, where the subject could be the buyers and sellers were left without better considered than in that House. The the slightest accommodation. Let hon. Bill did not appear to be founded upon any Members read the evidence contained in evidence, for it was quite opposed to the the Report upon the subject, and they recommendations of the Royal Commission would find that there was scarcely a wit. which had inquired into the subject. The ness amongst the many practical men who Commissioners proposed that there should were examined before the Commission who be a Central Board sitting in Dublin, did not agree that the country people, al- whereas the Bill lodged the control virtually though they would resist an arbitrary toll in the hands of the grand juries, who were from which they received no benefit, were to appoint visitors, of whom one-half would yet so sensible of the frauds that were consist of grand jurors or magistrates. committed from the absence of efficient By this arrangement the representative control that they would gladly pay a rea- element would be completely set aside ; for sonable sum for the accommodation pro. the sheriff was appointed by the Crown, posed to be given by this Bill. In taking the grand juries by the sheriff, and the the course which he did with regard to proposed committees would be chosen by the second reading, however, he must not the grand jurors. In his opinion it was be supposed to concur in all the details of scareely possible for anything more the measure, and especially in the opinion popular, and justly unpopular, to be de that fairs ought to be excluded from the vised. The Bill also failed to provide the operation of the measure, although he was necessary accommodation for the lunatic ready to admit that in dealing with a com- poor in Ireland. At present the asylums plicated question such as that under dis- in Ireland were mostly tenanted by incussion, it might not be undesirable to curables, and the consequence was that ascertain, in the first instance, with what there were a vast number of lunatics who success legislation in the case of markets were curable, but could not be received on would be attended.
account of want of accommodation. In the MR. SPAIGHT said, he believed that workhouses there were no less than 1,707 the lower classes especially, whose cham- poor luvatics. Every one was of opinion pions hon. Members opposite assumed to that these places were quite unsuitable to be, would feel every reason to be grateful such persons. The gaol was no better. to the noble Lord if the Bill passed into Then there were in addition 3,352 poor a law. The large mercantile community lunatics living at large among the people. of the city he had the honour to represent to provide for all these would require a (Limerick) had long seen the great abuses serious outlay. There were now, happily, which existed in the markets of Ireland, a number of poor-houses vacant in the and the gross frauds which were generally country, and what he would recommend practised there, and they felt that some was that some of them should be adapted reform was necessary for the double pur- for the purposes of lunatic asylums. There pose of protecting the farmer, who suffered this unfortunate class of the community