MR. NEWDEGATE said, he did not rise for the purpose of expressing his opinion upon the measure which the right hon. Gentleman had just submitted to the consideration of the House. But there was one point on which he was anxious to receive some explanation. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that if a person declared he had a conscientious objection to the payment of church rates, he should be exempted from the charge. He wished to know whether that exemption was to extend to any property whatever which such a person might hold. confidence upon the increase of her strength | than the present. It is quite remarkable how much zeal and spirit there have been of late years in building new churches, in providing endowments for ministers, in separating districts from populous parishes, and generally in increasing the efficiency of the Established Church. I have seen those symptoms with very great satisfaction and I feel, whatever may be our legislation here, that in this country, where at all events there is perfect freedom for endowments of this nature, the Church is sure to increase in power and in efficiency for the great purposes which it has in view. MR. MELLOR said that, notwithstandI should say in addition to this and ing the favourable manner in which the without it all else would be as nothing statement of the right hon. Gentleman apthat the ministers of the Gospel, though they peared to have been received, many parts are, unfortunately, in many cases divided of his measure were very objectionable, into different schools, all of them evince and would require great consideration. He a degree of zeal in the discharge of their was afraid that if those objections were not sacred functions, an amount of devotion to removed it would be difficult to pass the the administration of the Gospel, and, above measure. Indeed there was only one point all, an attention to the religion of the poor, on which the right hon. Gentleman opposite which, in my younger days, certainly was could not be considered as too sanguine, not the general character of their minis- and that was his prediction with regard to tration. That is the best symptom of all, the liberality of members of the Church of and with that symptom I cannot but look England. An assertion had been repeatwith the greatest confidence to the future edly hazarded, and it was one which lay of the Church. Perhaps I may be allowed at the foundation of all legislation on this to add, and it arises out of what was said subject, to which he (Mr. Mellor) could not by the hon. Member for Leicestershire assent. The allegation he alluded to was (Mr. Packe), and immediately appertains as to the antiquity of this impost. He ento the subject of church rates, that it will tirely denied that either before the Norbe a matter for the consideration of those man Conquest or at any time since, had who are charged with the revenues of the church rates been an obligation on the land, Church that, while in almost all towns there although they might work out by the vote are ample means by subscriptions and of a majority of the parishioners into such donations for the repairs of the church, yet, a tax. It was well known that they had that in our rural parishes there are many originated in the conscientious offerings of edifices of great architectural beauty, monu- the people. Formerly, when the whole ments of the piety of our ancestors, and in people of this country were all of one faith, some few cases memorable for their his- the Church claimed tithes of all, one portorical antiquities, the fabrics of which, local tion of which, according to the division subscriptions will not be adequate to main- suggested by the Pope to the Monk Autain. I think that the Ecclesiastical Com- gustine, according to the custom of the mission might, supposing they did nothing Holy See and the Canon Law, was else, contribute one-half, or, perhaps, more for the support of the bishop, the second of the sums necessary to maintain these for the support of the clergy, the churches. I am sorry if what I have said third for the poor, and the fourth for respecting this Bill is not in such terms of the repair of churches. In process of praise as the right hon. Gentleman could time the clergy contrived to relieve the wish it to be. At the same time, he will tithes of the claim for the repair of be quite right in thinking that this is the the churches, and persuaded the people very best measure which, under the cir- to raise the money necessary for their cumstances, could be framed. We must make the measure suit the opinion of the public, and cannot expect that the best measure which could be framed would be likely to pass. repair. This they them to do so was only enforced by spiritual | not be wholly disregarded. If the House censures, which, however effectual they did agree to that Motion, which arbimight have been at one time, ultimately trarily precluded the consideration of any lost the whole of their power, and now other alternative than that of absolute there was, in fact, no means at all of com- abolition, it would be a despotic abuse pelling them to do so. This would show of the power of a majority, and in his that it was a fallacy to call the charge for opinion such a course would not carry with the repair of churches a charge upon the it the approval of the country at large, or land. He thought therefore it would not even of the right-minded portion of the be advisable in any change that took place Dissenters themselves. He must confess to consider it as a charge upon land, as it he did not expect the Government would was certain to create a great opposition to have brought forward so good a meathe measure from an important section of sure. He had feared that their old Ecclethe community. He wished to ask the siastical Associations would have made it right hon. Gentleman what course he pro- impossible for them to have made so posed to adopt with respect to those decided a step in advance, as that of towns where no church rates had been the measure now proposed to them. He levied for many years; and he also wished gave them great credit for it, and thought to know, in cases where they had been that they were worthy of the thanks of abolished by Order in Council, as was the the House for the liberality they had shown means intended to be adopted, he believed, in the course they had taken. The right by the right hon. Gentleman, were they hon. Gentleman had come forward in a still to continue in those places till a fund manly and straightforward manner, which had been contributed equal to a certain entitled him to the respect of the House, average that had been collected in church and it was not to be believed that the rates for some years past? country would respond to the wish of any section of the House to stifle the discussion of his proposal. MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he rose to give his approval to the general principles of the scheme proposed by the right hon. Gentleman. The fact was the churchrate system had broken down through the failure of the legal machinery formerly relied upon to enforce it effectually. Now, therefore, that they had a reasonable and practicable solution before them of the difficulties which surrounded the question, it ought to be a source of satisfaction to all who were interested in this important subject, that such an opportunity for its settlement was offered for their acceptance. He hoped the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Trelawny) would himself agree to it. He must see that this was the only mesne course between the present state of things and the total abolition which he advocated. The House must see that if it agreed to the Motion which the hon. Baronet intended to bring forward on Wednesday next, it would absolutely preclude itself from any intermediate course. They could not expect to carry a perfect chrysolite of a measure through the House; they must give and take, and must abandon a rigid adherence to mere abstract principles. Right or wrong, Dissenters had completely ignored the considerations urged by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell). They repudiated the idea of a national Church; and they had become so powerful that their views could MR. ALDERMAN CUBITT said, he believed this to be the most important subject the House could undertake, and at the same time the most difficult. He had voted for the total abolition of church rates on previous occasions, because it was impossible the present state of things could continue. He gave that vote with great regret, but it was a choice of evils, and it was better to get rid of church rates than that the heartburnings of which they were the cause should continue. It was a great grievance that those whose families had been Dissenters for several generations should be obliged to support a church to which they conscientiously objected. Nor was theirs the only grievance. In populous parishes, where the people had outgrown church accommodation, several new churches had been built. There had been great difficulty in building those churches, and in raising the money necessary for their endowment and repair. But the present law of church rates left all these churches to the voluntary contributions of those who attended them, and thus many of these Churchmen felt church rates a grievance as well as the Dissenters. Now, if he rightly understood the provisions of the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman, they would offer great facilities in this way; the Bill would enable people to endow those new as well as the old churches [munity; they were provided for by the State, with lands, and it would, on the other and ought to pay their own expenses; and hand, relieve all those whose consciences if their servants attended the church also, compelled them to object to the payment let their employers think it no hardship to of church rates. He trusted, therefore, that the Bill of the Government would be fairly and impartially considered, so that the House might perfect a measure which would pass during the present Session, and be satisfactory to the country. Had he pay for them. If the expenses were confined to the strictly legal charges, he did not believe more than £150,000 a year would be required. Was it not time for the Church, from very shame, to put an end to this impost? Where was the noble MR. HADFIELD said, he rose to express Lord the Member for King's Lynn (Lord his dissent to the provisions of this Bill. Stanley)? approved of this He believed that the Bill would find more measure? Hadfield) believed objectors within the Establishment than that he was one of the last men to without. The thing could not work. To change his opinion with a change of seats give a man a premium to express his con- in that House, and if the noble Lord scientious objection to a tax was giving a were in the House he should expect to hear bounty to Dissent. It should be remem- from him whether he had supported the bered that the House had by a very large Bill. The Church of England could not do majority declared itself against church without endowment and Acts of Parlia rates altogether, and yet the right hon. ment, but the Dissenters required no Act Gentleman the Secretary of State for the of Parliament and no endowment. They Home Department brought this measure never troubled the State for one penny, before the House with the perfect know- except that one unfortunate instance in ledge that the opinion of the House was Ireland, so deeply regretted by the rest of against church rates. The majority of the Nonconformists in the United Kingdom. the vestry could now refuse church rates This Bill would put an end to nothing. by law; then, why should the right hon. There would be more conflicts under it, if Gentleman by all the machinery of this passed, than ever. With regard to the Bill endeavour to force the people to pay Mortmain Act, which this Bill, to a certain church rates? The House should not extent, proposed to repeal, the Dissenters forget that conscience was the same every- would require a complete revision. He where, and it could not be supposed that objected to that Act being suspended or the Dissenters living in the large towns repealed to satisfy the wishes of one portion would leave their country brethren without of the community, and not applied to all. support. During the right hon. Gentleman's statement, he (Mr. Hadfield) did him the compliment to believe that the members of the Church could do what the Dissenters did, namely, pay their own expenses. And he did not doubt that, if the House abolished church rates altogether, the Church would flourish better than ever. There were about 25,000 Dissenting places of worship in Great Britain, and all selfsupported, and there were about 15,000 churches in England and Wales, 10,000 of which were parish churches; but in 2.000 of these the rate had been refused, or had not been sought for, so that only about 8,000 received any benefit from the rate; all the other churches and chapels-of-ease were not entitled to receive one penny of the rate. The congregations frequenting these churches and chapels raised last year £262,000 for the purposes of their church, and surely Churchmen at large ought to do the like. The congregations of the parish churches were amongst the richest portion of the com SIR BROOK BRIDGES said, he rose to say a few words with reference to the statement that the maintenance of the church was not by the law of the country a charge on the land. It should not go forth uncontradicted to the world that it was not a charge on the land. He felt confident in the opinions which had been expressed by the most eminent lawyers elsewhere, who had declared that the whole of the land of the country was responsible for the support of the churches, and that the obligation was inalienable, and of longer duration than the title deeds of any gentleman who might possess land in the country. He sincerely trusted that some settlement of this muchvexed question would be arrived at this Session. MR. WALPOLE said, he should not have thought it necessary again to address the House had it not been that in the course of the evening one or two questions had been put on matters of detail which he had not sufficiently explained in his opening speech. The hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Mellor) asked whether it was intended | ing whether or not he would pay the rate to alter the law with reference to places in a future year. But the most serious objecwhere church rates had not hitherto been tion raised against the Bill was that stated levied; and the hon. Member for Sheffield by the noble Lord the Member for London. (Mr. Hadfield) maintained that, if it were The noble Lord had always been a most not so altered, the agitation which had been consistent opponent of the abolition of raised on the subject would only be in church rates. For the course he had taken creased. He thought he had explained on this subject the friends of the Estab that it was the intention of the Government lished Church owed him a deep debt of not to interfere unnecessarily with the law gratitude, and nothing would give him as it now stood, believing it to be a right greater pain than to find that the Governlaw in itself, though one that, by the force ment were amenable to the imputation of circumstances and the alterations brought which the noble Lord imagined stood about by time, had become in some cases against them when they proposed an exoppressive to those who no longer belonged emption in favour of Dissenters. The to the Church. It was, therefore, not the noble Lord argued in forcible language intention of the Government to alter the law that the principle of an Established Church with regard to those places; and he thought was really involved in that proposition. there existed good reasons why they should Now, the noble Lord himself, in a subnot do so. In the first place, it would be sequent part of his speech, showed diswrong to deny to those places which tinctly that this exemption of Dissenters had hither disobeyed the law an oppor- had nothing whatever to do with the printunity of obeying it; and, in the second ciple of an Establishment. He said, the place, he thought no hardship could accrue principle of an Establishment was, that to them by leaving the law as it was, be- they should have throughout the country, cause a majority could determine, as at and in every part of the country, places of present, to impose the rate if voluntary worship and ministers of religion to meet contributions were not raised by the pa- the spiritual wants of the people. But the rishioners. By leaving the law as it stood, noble Lord could hardly argue from his therefore, they would be encouraging volun- own premises that the mere fact of extary contributions for the support of the empting one man, or a number of men, fabric of the Church. A question had been from the payment of church rates was a put by the right hon. Member for Radnor destruction of the principle of an Estab(Sir George Lewis) with reference to the lishment, unless the principle meant thiseffect of the clause which enabled occupiers that it was right to enforce on those who to charge the rate against the landlord. did not belong to the Church a compulsory In explaining this part of the Bill he payment of the rato. He thought the omitted to mention the subsequent clause, noble Lord was unduly hard on the meawhich provided that in cases where the sure in this respect. At the end of his landlord was required to pay the rate-in speech he admitted the difficulties that exother words, when the tenant deducted the isted, and seemed almost to think that rate from the rent-the voice which the these difficulties were nearly insurmounttenant formerly possessed in the vestry able. In such circumstances it became a would be transferred to the landlord. The grave question whether some such prohon. Member for Warwickshire (Mr. New position as he (Mr. Walpole) had submitted degate) asked whether it was proposed, in to the House should be adopted, or whegiving exemption on account of conscien- ther matters should be allowed to remain tious objections to the payment of the rate, exactly as they were. If things were to to give the exemption to the land, or only remain as they now were, there would necesto persons. Certainly only to persons, and sarily be a continuance of all the agitation only to persons during the years in which which they wished to put an end to; but, the rate was levied, for it was not desirable if it was possible to rectify some of the to prevent those who had conscientious ob- evils that existed he preferred that to leavjections to the payment of the rate at one ing the law in its present state of untime from coming back at another, and certainty. The noble Lord said he foresaw subjecting themselves to the charge, as in that church rates were gone, and he (Mr. many cases might be done. He thought Walpole) would say so too; but he and the that when a person had been relieved from noble Lord applied to these words a difthe rate for one year it was but reasonable ferent meaning. The noble Lord meant that he should have an opportunity of say- to infer that church rates would be gone because it would be impossible any longer SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, he thought to levy them. He (Mr. Walpole) believed it would be more convenient that whatever that church rates would be gone because, discussion might arise on this subject by the voluntary efforts of those who be- should be taken on the second reading longed to the Church, it would be found instead of at the present stage. If that possible to maintain the sacred fabrics arrangement met the views of the Governwithout having recourse to a system that ment, he hoped they would fix the second had so long been a source of strife and reading for a day, when the House would contention in many parts of the country. have an opportunity for a full discussion. Before sitting down he wished to make an appeal to the hon. Baronet the Member for Tavistock (Sir J. Trelawny). The second reading of his Bill on church rates stood for Wednesday next. It would be impossible for the Government to bring forward their Bill for the second reading on that day. He did not, however, see anything to prevent the hon. Member laying down his own views upon the question either upon the discussion of the Government Bill or his own measure. What he (Mr. Walpole) would propose was, that the second reading of the Bill should be put nominally for Monday next, and that the hon. Baronet should have an opportunity of putting the second reading of his Bill next on the Orders for that day. He proposed this in order that the two Bills might be debated together and the time of the House saved, and it must be evident that by this means no undue advantage would be taken of the hon. Baronet. He had now only to thank the House for the kindness with which it had received his proposition. By their experience, observation, and wisdom, he hoped that they would agree upon some scheme which would prove satisfactory to all parties." SIR J. TRELAWNY said, he was quite willing to accede to the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman, with the understanding that as early an opportunity as possible would be taken after Monday for proceeding with the Bill. Motion agreed to. MR. SLANEY said, he rose to express his dissent from the gloomy views taken the other night by the right hon. Member for Halifax (Sir C. Wood) and others of the prospects of Indian finance. The debt of India amounted before the mutiny to but two years' revenue-a state of things calculated, when they considered the boundless and undeveloped resources of that country, to inspire confidence rather than despondency for the future. The people of India, who had been ground down for many centuries by successive conquerors, only required fair play and good Government to render them happy and prosperous, and to secure their attachment to our rule. The present condition of the Natives of that country was very unsatisfactory. Essentially an agricultural people, they were the worst paid, the worst clothed, and the worst fed people on the face of the earth. No less than three-fourths of the produce of the land was exacted from them in the shape of rent; whereas in this country the landlord's share did not exceed one-fourth or one-fifth. If they were properly treated there would, he believed, be an ample revenue. To develop the resources of the country, nothing more was needed than good government and security; when that was done, the large capital secreted amongst the Natives would start forth. The country possessed boundless resources. which only required capital to develop them. There was, however, au immense amount of capital in this country seeking investment, and it would find a boundless field in India. The result would be advantageous to both countries; India would furnish raw produce, and in exchange take a large quantity of manufactured goods. Under such circumstances we should hold our empire, not by fraud and force, but by the ties of mutual interest and gratitude; our revenue would materially increase, and the people of India would rise through material and moral improvement to that religious He had no doubt but that under the Goadvancement which all must wish them. vernment of the noble Lord every facility would be given for the employment of the |