Abbildungen der Seite
PDF
EPUB

SUPERANNUATION BILL.

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read. Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

MR. J. WILSON said, he intended to move an Amendment in Committee to which he believed the Government would not object.

held in his hand a comparison of the revenue and expenditure of India for decennial periods from 1809-10 to 1849-50, and he found that in 1809-10 the expenditure was 98 per cent of the revenue; in 1819-20 it was 99 per cent of the revenue; in 1829-30 it was 92 per cent; in 1839-40 it was 94 per cent; and in 1849-50 it was 84 per cent; showing 16 per cent of revenue surplus in the last and a year; surplus in each of the preceding decennial periods. Again, in 1809-10 the interest of SIR H. WILLOUHBY complained that the debt was 18 per cent on the revenue, a Bill of so much importance was pressed while in 1849.50 it was only 10 per cent. forward at so late an hour (near Twelve and though the debt had greately in- o'clock). He believed that the Bill would creased, it had not increased in the ratio throw an enormous burden upon the counof the increase of the revenue. He try. The subject was referred to a Combelieved that no other country in Europe mittee of the House, and after a very lacould show a similar result. As to the borious investigation they reported. Afterprospects of India arising from what was wards a Commission was appointed to revise called the development of her resources, (rather an unusual course), the proceedings really it had become mere jargon. Her re- of the Committee. The Committee recomsources had been developed to this extent, mended that the tax should be abolished, but that £8,000,000 of exports in 1834-5 had not that the salaries should be revised. He swelled to upwards of £25,000,000 in understood that this Bill would entitle the 1856-7, being an increase of 318 per cent, whole of the Civil Service to superanwhile the imports in the same period had nuation. The Government ought to inform increased 332 per cent. The silver bullion the House what that superannuation would imported into India since 4834-5 in adjust-cost the country. In the shape of comment of the balance of trade had exceeded £94,000,000 sterling, and if this enormous sum £76,000,000 sterling nett had remained in the country, and £66,000,000 sterling had been coined in rupees in the mints of India, most of which no doubt had found its way into the interior in payments of labour and first cost of produce. He quoted an extract from the Friend of India, a paper of late not friendly to the Indian Government, in support of his proposition that the prospects of India were, on the whole, satisfactory, provided that that confidence which had formerly existed between the Government and the people were restored. So long, however, as distrust operated upon the European mind the people of India would be alienated from us, and he was satisfied that it would be impossible to equalize the revenue and expenditure of India while we had to support there an army of more than 90,000 European troops.

Motion agreed to.

Resolved, That it is expedient to enable the Secretary of State in Council of India to raise money in the United Kingdom for the Service of the Government of India.

Resolution to be reported on Monday

next.

House resumed.

pensation and superannuation the country was at this moment paying £1,400,000, and if the whole civil service of the country was to be entitled to superannuation, he would ask where was it to end? Although the tax, which amounted to £70,000, had been abolished, there was nevertheless a new scale and state of things established. He objected to the form of the Bill, and to that bit-by-bit legislation it proposed, for in dealing with the question of superannuation they ought to deal with it as a whole.

In the

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, it would be undesirable at that late hour to trespass on the attention of the House at any great length; but the House was no doubt entitled to an explanation of the nature and object of this measure. first place, it was the intention of the Government, if the House assented to the second reading, to move that they should go into Committee pro forma on Monday. in order that they might reprint the Bill with some Amendments, that would make it clearer when they came to discuss it in detail. It was proposed to introduce some alterations in the second clause of the Bill, which would, he thought, meet the views of the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Wilson.) It was the wish of the Govern

ment that the Bill should accomplish that | prices, to keep them as long as their serwhich it was principally intended to accom-vices were valuable to the country, and to plish, namely the putting all classes of provide for their retirement when their serthe civil service on one uniform footing, vices were not sufficiently valuable to the as well as putting an end to those anomalies country. If that system were to be conthat had at present, and for a long time, tinued it must be clear, intelligible, and existed in the system of superannuation. uniform, because if you had a system by With regard to the observations of the which people when appointed were uncerhon. Baronet, he thought it was hardly fair tain as to whether they would receive suto call the present Government to account perannuation, you could not, on the one for what was done some time ago in the hand, when you engaged them, get the appointment of a Royal Commission, to benefit of the system by engaging them review, as he said, the proceedings of a at moderate salaries, nor could you, on Committee of that House. The Com- the other, from considerations of humamission was appointed not to review, but nity, dispense with their services just at to complete those proceedings. The hon. the time when they began to be of less Baronet would recollect, because he was a value to the country than when they were Member of the Committee, that they did engaged. The last great settlement of not arrive at a settlement of the ques- the superannuation question was in 1834, tion so as to enable the House to legislate but in that settlement there were several upon the subject that Session. There was blemishes. One was that the superannuaamong other things an important question tion was confined to a certain number of raised by the civil servants as to the suffi- offices named in a schedule to the Act. ciency or non-sufficiency of the deductions A great number of offices, however, had made from their salaries to pay the whole grown up since the Act of 1834, which did of their pensions, and that question was not come within the scope of its provisions. still under the consideration of eminent The persons holding those offices were not actuaries who had not come to a conclusion subject to abatements, but they got pensions, upon it when the Committee broke up. The though on a very irregular and unsatisGovernment, therefore, thought it desirable factory system. For instance, the officers to appoint a Royal Commission, consisting of the Poor-Law Board, and some others, of five gentlemen of great eminence, to were paid off, not on any established sysconsider that point. The Commission, tem, but in an irregular manner. One of after considering the matter very carefully, the objects of this Bill was to put an end made an elaborate Report, which was not to the scheduling of offices, and to make in the nature so much of a revision of the the superannuation apply to the whole civil proceedings of a Select Committee of that service. With regard to the additional House as a general report upon the sub- expense consequent upon introducing all ject, and which confirmed, to a very great those other classes of persons, he thought extent, the conclusions of that Committee. the hon. Baronet formed an exaggerated But with regard to the point raised by the opinion of it. Although it was perfectly hon. Baronet-namely, the additional ex-true there was a large number of persons pense which this Bill would throw upon the interested in the passing of this Bill, it country by taking off abatements, the Go- was to a great extent because they desired vernment had to consider not what were the certainty and something like a fixed sysrecommendations of the Select Committee tem that they were so interested. The or of the Royal Commission, but had to great class who would probably be brought consider what was the act of that House. within the superannuation provision, in adThe noble Lord the Member for Cocker-dition to those who were now included, mouth, now Chief Secretary for Ireland, introduced the year before last a Bill to put an end to that system of abatements to put an end, and as he (Sir Stafford Northcote), thought wisely, to that question. This question should not be looked upon as a mere question of pounds, shillings, and pence, as the hon. Baronet had put it. For what was the object of the superannuation system? Its object was to get good men for the civil service at moderate

would be persons employed in country Post-offices. He could not at that moment give an exact estimate of the number of that class of persons; but the Postmaster General and the authorities in the Post Office had represented that the department suffered seriously by not having a proper system of superannuation and retirement, and by not being able to get rid of persons who were past service. The measure, therefore, if the House looked at it in a

broad light, was one for the improvement of the civil service generally, and he believed it to be one of true economy. It was one of a series of measures which the present and the late Government had been taking for some time past for improving generally, and so economizing the Civil Service. He hoped the House would allow the Bill to be read a second time, because really its principle was already admitted, seeing, as every one would acknowledge, that if they were to pay their servants at all it was better to pay them on a system than upon no system.

MR. SERJEANT DEASY complained that in an indirect way Clause 4 of the Bill sought to apply its provisions to any judicial office in the United Kingdom; and he contended that if it was desirable to bring judicial offices within its scope it should be by legislation directly applicable to them, rather than that they should be placed, in regard to superannuation, under the control of the Treasury.

MR. WHITESIDE said, as to the policy of applying the principle of the Bill to judicial officers, it was impossible to expect from a gentleman eighty-five years of age -supposing any of them to be so that degree of attention which one less advanced in years would bring to the discharge of his duties. He agreed that the House should recognize the principle of rewarding length of service, but there ought to be a power of saying that at a certain time of life judicial officers should retire, and that power ought to be applied to persons who had arrived at a certain age, except the judges of the superior courts of law.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he did not rise to oppose the second leading of the Bill, but to state that in his opinion the effect of it would be to put it into the power of the Treasury to apply Clause 4 so as to enforce retirement on every judicial officer on his attaining the age of 65he repeated at the age of 65, and the House would see that that was so if they read the clause in connection with Clause 13. He added, that in future stages of the Bill he would meet that part of it with the most determined opposition.

GENERAL CODRINGTON said, he wished to express a hope that the Bill was so framed as to include within its scope artificers and labourers regulary employed in the Government establishments; and also to ask if its operation was to be retrospec

tive or otherwise. ?

MR. GROGAN said, he trusted that the Bill would include the large class of supernumeraries employed in almost every department of the Government.

MR. DOBBS said, he would call the attention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ennis (Mr. J. D. FitzGerald) to the fact that the limit of sixty-five years, mentioned in the Bill, applied to offices held otherwise than during good behaviour, which excluded Judges of County Courts in Ireland.

Question put and agreed to: Bill read 2o, and committed for Monday next. House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock, till Monday next.

[blocks in formation]

THE EARL OF DERBY:-My Lords, seeing in his place the noble Earl (Earl Grey) who has given notice of a Motion tonight on the subject of the Ionian Islands, I trust that my motives will not be misconstrued if I make an earnest appeal to him to postpone his Motion for a fortnight. I can assure the noble Earl that I shall not shrink at the proper time from discussing the whole of the recommendations made by the Government when they have such information before them as may enable them to discuss the question without detriment to the public service; but I can also assure the noble Earl that the question at this moment under the consideration of the Legislature of the Ionian Islands, is one which cannot be discussed at present without serious inconvenience to the public service. It is one, indeed, upon which I cannot enter into discussion with the noble Earl, and its discussion here may prevent the possibility-and it is no more than a possibility-of the acceptance of the propositions of the Lord High Commissioner as the basis of future legisla

[ocr errors]

Her Majesty,

tion. Under these circumstances, con- I very words of the treaty. sidering that to a great extent my mouth as protecting Sovereign, has certain auwill be closed, and that I shall not be able thority in those States, and it is in the to explain fully the objects which the Lord power of Parliament, before Her Majesty High Commissioner has in view, and con- exercises that authority, to tender its residering, also, that although the paper spectful advice upon that as well as other containing these propositions is an authen- topics. But when Her Majesty has once tic document, yet that it has been trans- ratified a change in the constitution of the mitted without covering letter, or a single Ionian Islands, Parliament has no authority explanatory observation, and that the whole whatever, and no alteration can be made case is at the present moment pending, I in the arrangement so effected, except by earnestly appeal to the noble Earl not to the authority of the Ionian States. My commence a discussion that can take place Lords, it was on these accounts that I was in a short time with so much greater ad- anxious to call your Lordships' attention vantage to the public. Mr. Gladstone left to the subject; but, seeing that it would the Ionian Islands on his way home on Sa- be highly painful to me to persevere after turday, and he will probably be in England the noble Earl has stated it would be inon Monday or Tuesday next. Considering convenient to him that I should do so, I that the Government have had no opportu- am willing to postpone the Motion-but nity of communicating with Mr. Gladstone, upon one, and only one, condition, and I put it to the noble Earl whether it will that is, that in the event of the Ionian not be fairer I will not say to Her Ma- Parliament acceding to the proposals made jesty's Government, but to Mr. Gladstone to them, the Resolutions they may pass in -that he should return home before any consequence shall not be submitted to Her discussion of the kind contemplated by the Majesty for Her final ratification until they noble Earl takes place. have been laid before Parliament, and until Parliament has had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon them. If that is declined I shall have no alternative, and it will be my duty to persevere with my Motion.

EARL GREY: My Lords, the appeal made to me by the noble Earl places me under a considerable difficulty, because when the First Minister of the Crown states upon his responsibility that a discussion of a particular question would lead to serious inconvenience to the public service, there can be in general no hesitation in submitting to that appeal. But the noble Earl, in the course of his appeal to me, has given as a reason for requesting postponement that the discussion might possibly have some effect in inducing the Assembly of the Ionian Islands to reject the proposals that have been made. Now, as I am of opinion that the rejection of those proposals is in the highest degree desirable that there can be no such great public misfortune in this transaction as that they should be accepted and ratified by Her Majesty the noble Earl's request rather increases the difficulty I feel; and for this reason, that the case of the Ionian Islands is very different from the case of a British colony. In a British colony, if the colonial Legislature passes some law that will be highly injurious to the empire at large, in that extreme case the authority of the Imperial Legislature can be invoked, and the injury may be prevented; but in the case of the Ionian Islands the Imperial Parliament has no authority whatever. They are constituted by the treaty a "free and independent State." Those are the

LORD BROUGHAM thought, that though in general the fact of a public servant being abroad on the public service was no reason for abstaining from discussion on his conduct-for such a rule would apply a fatal limit to discussion-yet the present he regarded as a peculiar or exception al case. His right hon. Friend the Lord High Commissioner was on his way home at this moment, and must arrive in this country in the course of a week or two, if not in a few days; therefore, in this case the argument that they ought not to be prevented from discussing the conduct of an absent public servant failed, because the authority of Parliament would only be suspended for the period of a few days. He hoped, therefore, in fairness to his right hon. Friend, as well as to the subject itself, that his noble Friend (Earl Grey) would postpone his Motion. Whether the Government would agree to the condition his noble Friend had imposed he could not, of course, say; but he hoped and trusted that the Motion would be postponed, both on account of the public service and in fairness and justice towards his right hon. Friend.

THE EARL OF DERBY:-My Lords, I

in the Resolutions which the Lord High Commissioner had submitted to the Ionian Parliament, but these Resolutions themselves had not been seen by the Govern

have some difficulty as to the precise answer which I ought to give to the proposition of the noble Earl-namely, that no Acts passed by the Legislature of the Ionian Islands on this subject shall receivement. They embodied the substance of the ratification of Her Majesty until they have been submitted to Parliament. I am not quite sure whether it would be consis tent with the rights of the Ionian Parliament to give a pledge in that form; but if the noble Earl consents to postpone his Motion, I shall promise that no application of any Act passed by the Ionian Legisla ture shall take place till the noble Earl has had an opportunity of bringing forward the subject.

EARL GRANVILLE:-I wish to ask whether Her Majesty's Government have received any information as yet as to the manner in which the proposed constitution has been received by the Ionian Parlia ment. I was not in the House the other evening when this subject was brought forward by my noble Friend; but I gather from the usual sources of information that the noble Lord, the Under Secretary for the Colonies, stated that the heads of the proposed constitution had been approved by the Government, and that the Queen's name had been used in respect to them. I should like to know whether I am right in understanding that to have been the statement made by the noble Lord.

the recommendations made in the reports to which I have referred; but the Resolutions themselves were not seen by the Government till they were transmitted by the Lord High Commissioner as having been laid before the Ionian Legislature. They were transmitted without any explanatory notes. These are substantially the statements made by my noble Friend the other night, and they are quite consistent with each other.

House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Monday, February 21, 1859.

MINUTES.] NEW MEMBER SWORN.-For Leomin-
ster, Captain the hon. Charles Spencer Bate-
man Hanbury.

PUBLIC BILLS.-1° Inclosure of Lands; Local
Assessments Exemption Abolition; Poor Law
Boards (Payment of Debts).

2o Medical Act (1858) Amendment: Lunatics
(Care and Treatment); Lunatic Asylums, &c.;
Burial Places.

WOOLWICH EXEMPTION BILL.
SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read.

THE EARL OF DERBY:-I have no difficulty in answering the two questions put by the noble Earl. And first, as regards the manner in which the heads of the constitution have been received by the Ionian Parliament. The Resolutions in which they were embodied were submitted to the Ionian Legislature on the 5th; and up to the 14th or 15th no decision had been come to regarding them, though various propositions had been made and discussed. Indeed, we have heard by telegraph that up to the time of Mr. Gladstone leaving the island the Legislature had come to no decision on the subject. With regard to the second question, what my noble Friend the Under Secretary for the Colonies said the other evening was, that the propositions made by the Lord High Commissioner were made with the assent and sanction of Her Majesty's Governmentthat communications had taken place between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and Mr. Gladstone-that the latter sent home reports containing various re- Motion made and Question proposed, commendations that the substance of "That the Bill be now read a second these reports were subsequently embodied time."

GENERAL CODRINGTON said, he rose to move the second reading of this Bill, the object of which was to exempt Woolwich from assessment by the Metropolitan Board of Works. The inhabitants of Woolwich had already expended 25,000 for the drainage of that town and parish, and they considered it would be a great hardship to make them liable to the rates for the main drainage of the Metropolis, believing that they could not derive any advantage from it; but, on the contrary, that the extension of the works to Woolwich would be seriously detrimental to the sanitary condition of the place.

MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS seconded the Motion.

« ZurückWeiter »