they were to maintain a European force in India. The Indian revenue could not support a European army of 100,000 men there; for according to the opinion of the Duke of Wellington, formed when he was in India, and signed himself, not Colonel Wellesley, but Colonel Wesley, both the climate and the expense rendered such a proceeding impracticable.

£31,220,507 the statutable accounts represented it at £29,702,854. He hoped some further explanation would be given of those discrepancies. But the point to which he wished to call special attention was, that there was nothing so deceptive as the statements of gross revenue, and no greater mischief could be done than by entertaining exaggerated notions of the revenue of India. The noble Lord had told MR. LOWE said, he quite agreed with them that the revenue of India amounted those who had complimented the noble to £31,220,507; but it must not be for- Lord on the candour and fairness of his gotten that £10,000,000 of that sum was statement, but he also agreed that they forestalled-about £3,708,703 costs of had been unable to gather from it the collection £255,000, pensions, allowances, means by which the noble Lord would &c., and nearly £4,000,000 as interest extricate himself from the difficulty in on the debt. He urged this as an ad- which he was undoubtedly placed. The ditional reason for using the greatest noble Lord said that he did not see his way precautions, aud adopting the strictest to any considerable increase of ways and economy. He must say he did not think means, or any great reduction of expendithe right hon. Gentleman the Member for ture, except some trifling decrease in the Halifax (Sir C. Wood) had dealt quite fairly Civil Service, for the noble Lord said, in with the noble Lord. The right hon. Gen- answer to the right hon. Gentleman the tleman gathered all the Indian difficulties Member for Northampton (Mr. Vernon together in a heap, and threw them at Smith) that he thought he might reduce the head of the noble Lord, asking him the army to what it was before the mutiny, how he would extricate himself from them. but not lower. It followed, therefore, that He did not think that was quite fair. the deficit would be equal to the interest The mutiny could hardly yet be said to be of the loans which the mutiny created. He suppressed, and it would be an impeach- thought they had a right to expect that the ment of the noble Lord's judgment if he noble Lord should suggest some remedy were now to come forward with a complete for the chronic state of debt which might financial scheme. At the same time he be anticipated from his own statement. was surprised to hear the noble Lord say The noble Lord had done nothing of the that he did not consider the Indian stock kind. He said the land revenue was ina permanent charge on the Indian revenue. elastic, but he suggested no means of He, for his part, considered it to be the taxing the wealthy classes of India, who, first charge, and he understood, according he admitted, were entirely untaxed, except to the Act of 1833, that if India were lost the small proportion which they paid of the to this country, that stock would constitute salt tax, while the cultivators of the soil a charge upon this country as far as the were taxed to the extent of their whole guarantee fund did not cover. With re-profits, save a bare existence. The noble spect to the question of an Imperial guarantee, he would ask the right hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Cardwell) to recollect what he (Sir H. Willoughby) said last year, that we were gradually drifting into that guarantee. It was to avoid that he was anxious to maintain the existence of the company, as at least one barrier against Indian claims being brought against this country; but now he thought it was impossible to consider a Secretary of State insolvent while the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not. He thought the probability was that both would become insolvent together; but he hoped that result would happen to neither; only it was an additional reason for precaution on all sides. The whole question would turn upon how

Lord has called upon the Government of
India to devise some tax which should
balance income and expenditure, but that
was, in his (Mr. Lowe's) opinion, the duty
of the Home Government.
What were
the Gentlemen in Leadenhall Street for, if
not to relieve the local Government from
abstract speculations on matters of taxa-
tion? How could it be expected that with
the cares and difficulties which beset
Viscount Canning and his Council they
could find time to go into a careful com-
parison of statistics, aud of the different
kinds of tax which might be imposed? To
refer such a measure to the Indian Go-
vernment was tantamount to putting off the
question sine die. If they turned to the
other side they found the noble Lord ex-

pressing hopes of some trifling reduction | what did we gain by the power we retained in the civil expenditure. He apprehended of still raising the assessment higher, by that his right hon. Friend the Member for marking it for a few years at such an Halifax had entirely answered that by amount as we believed the cultivator to be showing that, as they raised the standard just able to pay, with the power of raising of comfort and personal safety in India, it higher? By that system we lost the they would create wants which the Go- affections of the people and the conservavernment would be bound to satisfy. There- tive influence of property, and we were fore, if they looked forward to the improve- forced to incur a large military expenditure ment of India, they must look forward also to retain our hold of a country, the inhabito the gradual increase of the civil expen- tants of which we had not bound to us by diture. What was the case of this country? any of those ties by which a beneficent Why, that our civil estimates had nearly Government secured the obedience and doubled within a short period, simply affection of its subjects. These were because, the standard of comfort and con- questions which must be considered if we venience being raised, the people would no meant to bring our revenue to a balance longer put up with the rude contrivances with our expenditure. With regard to an which satisfied their forefathers. The only Imperial guarantee, setting aside the imother head upon which reduction was possi-policy of making this country liable for the ble was the military expenditure, and the noble Lord had disposed of that himself. Merely looking, then, at the taxes and the expenditure, there seemed no means of doing any good, and we ought to look deeper, therefore, to see whether any change could be devised which would relieve India from the burden of a great military expenditure, would bind the inhabitants closer to our rule, and raise a feeling in our favour that would fight for us as effectually as an overwhelming military force. The noble Lord, however, had not given the House any intimation with regard to a measure of this kind. Every one knew that the noble Lord's aspirations were of the most philanthropic nature-could he see nothing in the state of India in the way of alteration and improvement which bore upon this part of the question? The great evil which must strike every one who knew anything of India was that the land, which in every other country was the basis of society-the basis on which everything was built, on which the Government relied for the supply of that portion of the population which would stand by law and order, and resist all change in India-entirely failed to fulfil that condition. Inheriting the oppressive system of our Oriental predecessors, we had so contrived as not to create any property in land. Those who cultivated it had no ownership in it; they were rackrenters to the utmost extreme, and whatever Government might succeed us they could be no worse. If the only hope of receiving the revenue from land was that the land which had gone out of cultivation-in many cases owing to our heavy assessment-might some time or other be brought into cultivation again,

debts of India, and admitting that the foreign dominions of the Queen in India stood in a different position from Her Majesty's dominions in the Colonies, for the sake of India itself we ought not to countenance this notion. It was difficult at all times to maintain an effective control over a distant Government such as that of India; but there was this check,-that by undertaking rash wars the Government knew that it was embarrassing its own resources. If it once got hold of the idea that it had the boundless credit of the Imperial Exchequer to fall back upon, this check would be lost. As to the system of guarantees, the expedient of guarantees had probably been hit upon from the supposition that advantages would be gained in the management of a private company which could not be looked for from the management of a Government. No expectation could be more futile. By giving it a guarantee the chief advantage of a private company-economy-was lost. It might be said that there was the incitement left to gain a higher dividend than that guaranteed; but of the two motives-hope and fear the last was the strongest, and if you secured a company from the risk of getting less than 5 per cent, it would not be very actively stirred by the hope of getting more. The system of guarantees was most expensive, too. If the work failed, the Government had to bear the expense, aggravated by the expense of the machinery which it had needlessly called into action, and if it succeeded it had use. lessly to forego the advantages of it. Once begun, the system could not be stopped. If one thing was guaranteed, everything must be guaranteed, and all at the same

submitted this matter to the judgment of the noble Lord in the hope that he would take it into his serious consideration, and that he would listen to no suggestions that it was a matter foreign to the duty he was called on to discharge. Of all the evils that had created discontent in India, there was none that had operated so powerfully

saying this, he expressed the judgment of men who ought never to have been subjected to the slight-to use no stronger term-of having their opinions reviewed by gentlemen otherwise so respectable as the members of the Legislative Council in Calcutta. A great opportunity now offered of placing the procedure of civil justice on a clear and simple footing in India, and he hoped that the noble Lord would carry out the plan in all its integrity. If, however, for reasons which he (Mr. Lowe) did not know, he found that that could not, at the present moment, be effected, he thought it would be better to wait till a more favourable time occurred.

rate. For the future no work could be executed without a guarantee. Not that it would be impossible to persuade people that the work would be remunerative, but because those who dealt in these stocks would get so accustomed to the notion of Indian guarantees that they would not look at a project which was not guaranteed. At the moment, too, when the Go-to that end as the judicial system. In vernment perhaps wanted most to borrow on good terms, it might be confronted in the common market by the competition of its guaranteed compeer. To one matter he wished to call the particular attention of the noble Lord. When the Committee of 1853 finished its sitting, it was the opinion of the then President of the Board of Control and others who had paid considerable attention to the matter, that the Sudder and Supreme Courts ought to be amalgamated. A Commission was appointed on which he had had the honour to serve, and of which the Master of the Rolls and the late Sir John Jervis were members, to draw up a code of simple and uniform procedure for these amalgamated Courts, which might also LORD STANLEY said, a great variety serve as an example for the inferior Courts. of subjects had been touched upon in the For three years the Commission laboured course of the evening, but probably the at this work, and when the code was Committee would only expect that he should drawn up it was sent to India. There it notice one or two of the most important was submitted to that anomalous body, the of them. He would first advert to that Legislative Council, which had altered a topic which had been introduced by the great deal the Commission had done to right hon. Gentleman the Member for Halihis mind, though it might be prejudice, for fax (Sir C. Wood), and which had also the worse. For instance, the Commission been commented on by the right hon. had abolished written procedure, and had Gentleman who had just sat down-he given only one appeal. The Legislative meant the union of the Sudder and SuCouncil restored written procedure, and preme Courts. On that subject he entirely gave a second appeal of a purely technical concurred in the view taken by the right nature. The Legislative Council had pro- hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidderposed, too, to leave the Sudder and Su- minster (Mr. Lowe), that it was desirable preme Courts alone, and confine the pro- to make this reform in its integrity, and cedure to the Mofussil Courts. The Com- not to carry out any partial measure. With missioners were of opinion that if this was that feeling he had, on behalf of the Goallowed to be done a great opportunity vernment, sent out by the last mail a rewould be lost. All these Courts now were quest to the Government of India to suspend the Queen's Courts, and it would thus be all proceedings in the matter till they had given out to the Indian people that the heard from the Government at home. Queen had one Court for her English sub- should be glad if it were possible to act jects resident in the Presidential towns, upon the recommendation of the Commisand another for the Hindoo subjects resi- sioners at once; but he agreed with the dent in the country. But should the noble right hon. Gentleman in thinking that it Lord and the India Council or the Go- would be better to go on with the system vernor General and his Council in India be as it was for a time, rather than to alter it of opinion, for reasons which he did not in a partial and imperfect manner, and so know, that the time was not come for in the end increase the difficulties with which pressing this measure, then he thought it the subject was surrounded. Various queswould be more wise to allow it to drop for itons had been put to him with regard to the the moment, and wait for a better oppor-"security fund," and in reference to that tunity of carrying it fully into effect. He matter he had been told that about a year

He

ago there was a sale of £315,000 of the | be insufficient to meet the demands made security fund to pay the dividend of the upon it. The creditor had a first charge capital stock, due in January, 1858, but on Indian revenue, and if after paying him, that amount had been replaced. The right the Indian revenue proved insufficient to hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax carry on the civil and military administra(Sir C. Wood) made an inquiry with re- tion of India, by whom were the necessary ference to the Report on Civil Salaries. He funds for that purpose to be supplied? had not seen that Report, though he be- Either we must leave India without lieved it had arrived in the country. But administration and without defence, or from what he heard, the general result we must contribute to the cost of both? of it was rather to increase than di- That was the way in which the question minish the civil expenditure. On that really came up. It was in that sense only -point he could only repeat what he had he ever asserted, or meant to assert, that said the other night, when he carefully there was a contingent responsibility lying guarded himself from expressing any opin- on this country, and he thought it well ion that a large immediate reduction in that the House should be aware of its exthat branch of expenditure could be looked istence. He ought to state, that after for. Something had been said with re- the discussion on Monday night the Gogard to the guarantee system as applied vernment had laid on the table of the to railways. It was rather too late to House a despatch containing a summary raise that question now, as they had already of our financial condition for the two guaranteed the interest on railroads to years, but he regretted that it had not the extent of £40,000,000. He quite been printed in time for this debate. admitted the system was open to many ob- With regard to the omission of various jections, but the Committee should recol- items in the accounts, it was quite true lect, however, that there was a vast dif- that the last accounts were issued only six ference between the Government guaran- months ago, but the Government were not teeing those works and carrying on the otherwise responsible for it than that the works themselves, for in the one case the form which existed previously had been Government only accepted the liability to followed in this instance. He would look pay a sum not very great for interest; into the matter before another account was whereas, if they had undertaken the works published, and he must say that he thought themselves, they would have had to supply that the proper course was, that every the whole capital. A most important ques- item of receipt and expenditure should aption had been raised with regard to the pear in the account. In conclusion, he responsibility of the English Exchequer for could only express to the House his thanks the debts of India. On that point he for the fair and impartial spirit which had agreed with what was the general feeling been shown in the discussion, and for the of the House. He quite agreed with willingness evinced on all sides to assist those who held that the late Act did not the Government of India in its difficulties. affect the question of responsibility and that MR. KINNAIRD said, he could not but the state of things as regarded the re- congratulate the House on the absence of sponsibility of this country for Indian debts that party feeling which it had been said continued just what it was under the last year would be imported into all Indian administration of the Company. The obiter debates after the transference of the Godictum of his, to which the hon. Member vernment to the Crown. He thanked the for Oxford had alluded, was merely to the noble Lord for what he had said with reeffect that he thought it worth while to gard to India, aud begged to say that, for remember that we had a contingent in- one, he cordially agreed in the policy which terest in the matter. The nature of that the noble Lord had adopted. He approved contingent interest had been fairly stated the policy which had led to the giving of by an hon. Member, who said that it was guarantees for the interest upon money not easy to see how the Secretary of State expended in works of great national imfor India could be insolvent and the Chan-portance, for he was satisfied that such cellor of the Exchequer solvent. No doubt the Indian debt would be held to be a charge on the Indian revenues alone. Still, the question he threw out on Monday evening was with relation to the contingency that at any time the Indian revenue should

guarantees would be the means of effectually developing the resources of India.

COLONEL SYKES said, that the right hon. Member for Halifax had taken a gloomy view of the prospects of India, for which he trusted there was no ground. He