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rate. For the future no work could be submitted this matter to the judgment of executed without a guarantee. Not that the noble Lord in the hope that he would it would be impossible to persuade people take it into his serious consideration, and that the work would be remunerative, but that he would listen to no suggestions that because those who dealt in these stocks it was a matter foreign to the duty he was would get so accustomed to the notion called on to discharge. Of all the evils of Indian guarantees that they would not that had created discontent in India, there look at a project which was not guaran. was none that had operated so powerfully tecd. At the moment, too, when the Go- to that end as the judicial system. In vernment perhaps wanted most to borrow saying this, he expressed the judgment of on good terms, it might be confronted in men who ought never to have been subthe common market by the competition of jected to the slight-to use no stronger its guaranteed compeer. To one matter term of having their opinions reviewed he wished to call the particular attention of by gentlemen otherwise so respectable as the noble Lord. When the Committee of the members of the Legislative Council in 1853 finished its sitting, it was the opinion Calcutta. A great opportunity now offered of the then President of the Board of Con- of placing the procedure of civil justice on trol and others who had paid considerable a clear and simple footing in India, and he attention to the matter, that the Sudder hoped that the noble Lord would carry out and Supreme Courts ought to be amalga- the plan in all its integrity. If, however, mated. A Commission was appointed on for reasons which he (Mr. Lowe) did not which he had had the honour to serve, and of know, he found that that could not, at the which the Master of the Rolls and the late present moment, be effected, he thought it Sir John Jervis were members, to draw up would be better to wait till a more favoura code of simple and uniform procedure for able time occurred. these amalgamated Courts, which might also LORD STANLEY said, a great variety serve as an example for the inferior Courts. of subjects had been touched upon in the For three years the Commission laboured course of the evening, but probably the at this work, and when the code was Committee would only expect that he should drawn up it was sent to India. There it notice one or two of the most important was submitted to that anomalous body, the of them. He would first advert to that Legislative Council, which had altered a topic which had been introduced by the great deal the Commission had done—to right hon. Gentleman the Member for Halihis mind, though it might be prejudice, for fax (Sir C. Wood), and which had also the worse.
For instance, the Commission been commented on by the right hon. had abolished written procedure, and had Gentleman who had just sat down-he given only one appeal. The Legislative meant the union of the Sudder and SuCouncil restored written procedure, and preme Courts. On that subject he entirely gave a second appeal of a purely technical concurred in the view taken by the right nature. The Legislative Council had pro- hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidderposed, too, to leave the Sudder and Su- minster (Mr. Lowe), that it was desirable preme Courts alone, and confine the pro- to make this reform in its integrity, and cedure to the Mofussil Courts. The Com- not to carry out any partial measure. With missioners were of opinion that if this was that feeling he had, on behalf of the Goallowed to be done a great opportunity vernment, sent out by the last mail a rewould be lost. All these Courts now were quest to the Government of India to suspend the Queen's Courts, and it would thus be all proceedings in the matter till they had given out to the Indian people that the heard from the Government at home. He Queen had one Court for her English sub- should be glad if it were possible to act jects resident in the Presidential towns, upon the recommendation of the Commisand another for the Hindoo subjects resi- sioners at once; but he agreed with the dent in the country. But should the noble right hou. Gentleman in thinking that it Lord and the India Council or the Go- would be better to go on with the system vernor General and his Council in India be as it was for a time, rather than to alter it of opinion, for reasons which he did not in a partial and imperfect manner, and so know, that the time was not come for in the end increase the difficulties with which pressing this measure, then he thought it the subject was surrounded. Various ques. would be more wise to allow it to drop for itons had been put to him with regard to the the moment, and wait for a better oppor- “ security fund," and in reference to that tunity of carrying it fully into effect. He matter he had been told that about a year ago there was a sale of £315,000 of the be insufficient to meet the demands made security fund to pay the dividend of the upon it. The creditor had a first clarge capital stock, due in January, 1858, but on Indian revenue, and if after paying him, that amount had been replaced. The right the Indian revenue proved insufficient to hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax carry on the civil and military administra(Sir C. Wood) made an inquiry with re- tion of India, by whom were the necessary ference to the Report on Civil Salaries. He funds for that purpose to be supplied ? bad not seen that Report, though he be. Either we must leave India without lieved it had arrived in the country. But administration and without defence, or from what he heard, the general result we must contribute to the cost of both ? of it was rather to increase than di. That was the way in which the question minish the civil expenditure. On that really came up. It was in that sense only -point he could only repeat what he had be ever asserted, or meant to assert, that said the other night, when he carefully there was a contingent responsibility lying guarded himself from expressing any opin- on this country, and he thought it well ion that a large immediate reduction in that the House should be aware of its exthat branch of expenditure could be looked istence. He ought to state, that after for. Something had been said with re- the discussion on Monday night the Gogard to the guarantee system as applied vernment had laid on the table of the to railways. It was rather too late to House a despatch containing a summary raise that question now, as they had already of our financial condition for the two guaranteed the interest on railroads to years, but he regretted that it had not the extent of £40,000,000. He quite been printed in time for this debate. admitted the system was open to many ob- With regard to the omission of various jections, but the Committee should recol- items in the accounts, it was quite true lect, bowever, that there was a vast dif- that the last accounts were issued only six ference between the Government guaran- months ago, but the Government were not teeing those works and carrying on the otherwise responsible for it than that the works themselves, for in the one case the form which existed previously had been Government only accepted the liability to followed in this instance. He would look pay a sum pot very great for interest ; into the matter before another account was whereas, if they had undertaken the works published, and he must say that he thought themselves, they would have had to supply that the proper course was, that every the whole capital. A most important ques- item of receipt and expenditure should aption had been raised with regard to the pear in the account. In conclusion, he responsibility of the English Exchequer for could only express to the House his thanks the debts of India. On that point he for the fair and impartial spirit which had agreed with what was the general feeling been shown in the discussion, and for the of the House. He quite agreed with willingness evinced on all sides to assist those who held that the late Act did not the Government of India in its difficulties. affect the question of responsibility and that MR. KINNAIRD said, he could not but the state of things as regarded the re-congratulate the House on the absence of sponsibility of this country for Indian debts that party feeling which it had been said continued just what it was under the last year would be imported into all Indian administration of the Company. The obiter debates after the transference of the Godictum of bis, to which the hon. Member vernment to the Crown. He thanked the for Oxford had alluded, was merely to the noble Lord for what he had said with reeffect that he thought it worth while to gard to India, and begged to say that, for remember that we had a contingent in- one, be cordially agreed in the policy which terest in the matter. The nature of that the noble Lord had adopted. He approved contingent interest had been fairly stated the policy which had led to the giving of by an hon. Member, who said that it was guarantees for the interest upon money not easy to see how the Secretary of State expended in works of great national imfor India could be insolvent and the Chan- portance, for he was satisfied that such cellor of the Exchequer solvent. No doubt guarantees would be the means of effecthe Indian debt would be held to be a tually developing the resources of India. charge on the Indian revenues alone. Still, COLONEL SYKES said, that the right the question he threw out ou Monday even hon. Member for Halifax had taken a ing was with relation to the contingency gloomy view of the prospects of India, for that at any time the Indian revenue should which he trusted there was no ground. He
held in his hand a comparison of the revenue
SUPERANNUATION BILL, and expenditure of India for decennialperiods from 1809-10 to 1849-50, and he found that in 1809-10 the expenditure was 98
Order for Second Reading read. per cent of the revenue; in 1819.20 it was
Motion made and Question proposed, 99 per cent of the revenue; in 1829-30 it
" That the Bill be now read a second was 92 per cent ; in 1839-40 it was 94 time.” per cent; and in 1849-50 it was 84 per MR. J. WILSON said, he intended to cent; showing 16 per cent of revenue move an Amendment in Committee to surplus in the last year ; and a sur-which be believed the Government would plus in each of the preceding decennial not object. periods. A gain, in 1809.10 the interest of SIR H. WILLOUHBY complained that the debt was 18 per cent on the revenue, a Bill of so much importance was pressed while in 1849.50 it was only 10 per cent. forward at so late an hour (near Twelve and though the debt had greately in o'clock). He believed that the Bill would creased, it had not increased in the ratio throw an enormous burden upon
the coun. of the increase of the revenue.
The subject was referred to a Combelieved that no other country in Europe mittee of the House, and after a very lacould show a similar result. As to the borious investigation they reported. Afterprospects of India arising from what was wards a Commission was appointed to revise called the development of her resources, (rather an unusual course), the proceedings really it had become mere jargon. Her re- of the Committee. The Committee recomsources had been developed to this extent, mended that the tax should be abolished, but that £8,000,000 of exports in 1834-5 had not that the salaries should be revised. He swelled to upwards of £25,000,000 in understood that this Bill would entitle the 1856-7, being an increase of 318 per cent, whole of the Civil Service to superanwhile the imports in the same period had nuation. The Government ought to inform increased 332 per cent. The silver bullion the House what that superannuation would imported into India since 4834-5 in adjust cost the country. In the shape of comment of the balance of trade had exceeded pensation and superannuation the country £94,000,000 sterling, and if this enormous was at this moment paying £1,400,000, sum £76,000,000 sterling nett had re- and if the whole civil service of the counmained in the country, and £66,000,000 try was to be entitled to superannuation, he sterling had been coined in rupees in the would ask where was it to end? Although mints of India, most of which no doubt the tax, which amounted to £70,000, had had found its way into the interior in been abolished, there was nevertheless a payments of labour and first cost of pro- new scale and state of things established, duce. He quoted an extract from the He objected to the form of the Bill, and Friend of India, a paper of late not to that bit-by-bit legislation it proposed, friendly to the Indian Government, in sup- for in dealing with the question of superport of his proposition that the prospects annuation they ought to deal with it as a of India were, on the whole, satisfactory, whole. provided that that confidence which had SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, formerly existed between the Government it would be undesirable at that late hour to and the people were restored. So long, trespass on the attention of the House at however, as distrust operated upon
any great length ; but the House was no European mind the people of India would doubt entitled to an explanation of the be alienated from us, and he was satisfied nature and object of this measure.
In the that it would be impossible to equalize the first place, it was the intention of the Gorevenue and expenditure of India while we vernment, if the House assented to the had to support there an army of more second reading, to move that they should than 90,000 European troops.
go into Committee pro forma on Monday, Motion agreed to.
in order that they might reprint the Bill Resolved, That it is expedient to enable with some Amendments, that would make the Secretary of State in Council of India it clearer when they came to discuss it in to raise money in the United Kingdom for detail. It was proposed to introduce some the Service of the Government of India. alterations in the second clause of the Bill,
Resolution to be reported on Monday which would, he thought, meet the views pext.
of the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. House resumed.
Wilson.) It was the wish of the Government that the Bill should accomplish that prices, to keep them as long as their serwhich it was principally intended to accom- vices were valuable to the country, and to plish, namely — the putting all classes of provide for their retirement when their serthe civil service on one uniform footing, vices were not sufficiently valuable to the as well as putting an end to those anomalies country. If that system were to be con. that had at present, and for a long time, tinued it must be clear, intelligible, and existed in the system of superannuation. uniform, because if you had a system by With regard to the observations of the which people when appointed were uncer. hon. Baronet, he thought it was hardly fair tain as to whether they would receive suito call the present Government to account perannuation, you could not, on the one for what was done some time ago in the hand, when you engaged them, get the appointment of a Royal Commission, to benefit of the system by engaging them review, as he said, the proceedings of a at moderate salaries, nor could you, on Committee of that House. The Com- the other, from considerations of humamission was appointed not to review, but nity, dispense with their services just at to complete those proceedings. The hon. the time when they began to be of less Baronet would recollect, because he was a value to the country than when they were Member of the Committee, that they did engaged. The last great settlement of not arrive at a settlement of the ques. the superannuation question was in 1834, tion so as to enable the House to legislate but in that settlement there were several upon the subject that Session. There was blemishes. One was that the superannuaamong other things an important question tion was confined to a certain number of raised by the civil servants as to the suffi- offices named in a schedule to the Act. ciency or non-sufficiency of the deductions A great number of offices, however, had made from their salaries to pay the whole grown up since the Act of 1834, which did of their pensions, and that question was not come within the scope of its provisions. still under the consideration of eminent The persons holding those offices were not actuaries who had not come to a conclusion subject to abatements, but they got pensious, upon it when the Committee broke up. The though on a very irregular and unsatisGovernment, therefore, thought it desirable factory system. For instance, the officers to appoint a Royal Commission, consisting of the Poor-Law Board, and some others, of five gentlemen of great eminence, to were paid off, not on any established sysconsider that point. The Commission, tem, but in an irregular manner. One of after considering the matter very carefully, the objects of this Bill was to put an end made an elaborate Report, which was not to the scheduling of offices, and to make in the nature so much of a revision of the the superannuation apply to the whole civil proceedings of a Select Committee of that service. With regard to the additional House as a general report upon the sub- expense consequent upon introducing all ject, and which confirmed, to a very great those other classes of persons, he thought extent, the conclusions of that Committee. the hon. Baronet formed an exaggerated But with regard to the point raised by the opinion of it. Although it was perfectly hon. Baronet-namely, the additional ex- true there was a large number of persons pense which this Bill would throw upon the interested in the passing of this Bill, it country by taking off abatements, the Go- was to a great extent because they desired vernment had to consider not what were the certainty and something like a fixed sysrecommendations of the Select Committee tem that they were so interested. The or of the Royal Commission, but had to great class who would probably be brought consider what was the act of that House. within the superannuation provision, in adThe noble Lord the Member for Cocker- dition to those who were now included, mouth, now Chief Secretary for Ireland, would be persons employed in country introduced the year before last a Bill to put Post-offices. He could not at that moment an end to that system of abatements—to give an exact estimate of the number of put an end, and as he (Sir Stafford North- that class of persons ; but the Postmaster cote), thought wisely, to that question. General and the authorities in the Post This question should not be looked upon as Office had represented that the department a mere question of pounds, shillings, and suffered seriously by not having a proper pence, as the bon. Baronet had put it. system of superannuation and retirement, For what was the object of the super- and by not being able to get rid of perannuation system? Its object was to get sons who were past service. The measure, good men for the civil service at moderate therefore, if the House looked at it in a broad light, was one for the improvement MR. GROGAN said, he trusted that the of the civil service generally, and he be- Bill would include the large class of superlieved it to be one of true economy. It numeraries employed in almost every dewas one of a series of measures which the partment of the Government. present and the late Government had been MR. DOBBS said, he would call the taking for some time past for improving attention of the right hon, and learned generally, and so economizing the Civil Gentleman the Member for Ennis (Mr.J.D. Service. He hoped the House would allow FitzGerald) to the fact that the limit of sixthe Bill to be read a second time, because ty-five years, mentioned in the Bill, applied really its principle was already admitted, to offices held otherwise than during good seeing, as every one would acknowledge, behaviour, which excluded Judges of County that if they were to pay their servants at Courts in Ireland. all it was better to pay them on a system Question put and agreed to : Bill read tban upon no system.
2°, and committed for Munday next. MR. SERJEANT DEASY complained
House adjourned at a quarter that in an indirect way Clause 4 of the
before One o'clock, till Bill sought to apply its provisions to any
Monday next. judicial office in the United Kingdom ; and he contended that if it was desirable to bring judicial offices within its scope it should be by legislation directly applicable to them, rather than that they should be
HOUSE OF LORDS, placed, in regard to superannuation, under the control of the Treasury.
Monday, February 21, 1859. MR. WIITESIDE said, as to the policy Minutes). Took the Oaths. —The Bishop of Osof applying the principle of the Bill to ju
sory. dicial officers, it was impossible to expect Public BILLS.—1« Ecclesiastical Courts and from a gentleman eighty-five years of age
Registries (Ireland); Occasional Forms of
Prayer. -supposing any of them to be so—that
2a Ecton and Walton Exchange. degree of attention which one less advanced in years would bring to the dis
THE IONIAN ISLANDS. charge of bis duties. He agreed that the House should recognize the principle of
MOTION POSTPONED. rewarding length of service, but there THE EARL OF DERBY:-My Lords, ought to be a power of saying that at a seeing in his place the noble Earl (Earl certain time of life judicial officers should Grey) who has given notice of a Motion toretire, and that power ought to be applied night on the subject of the Ionian Islands, to persons who had arrived at a certain I trust that my motives will not be misconage, except the judges of the superior strued if I make an earnest appeal to hin courts of law.
to postpone his Motion for a fortnight. MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he I can assure the noble Earl-that I shall did not rise to oppose the second reading not shrink at the proper time from disof the Bill, but to state that in his opinion cussing the whole of the recommendathe effect of it would be to put it into the tions made by the Government when power of the Treasury to apply Clause 4 they have such information before them so as to enforce retirement on every judicial as may enable them to discuss the ques. officer on his attaining the age of 65— tion without detriment to the public serhe repeated at the age of 65, and the vice; but I can also assure the noble House would see that that was so if they Earl that the question at this moment read the clause in connection with Clause under the consideration of the Legisla13. He added, that in future stages of ture of the Ionian Islands, is one which the Bill he would meet that part of it with cannot be discussed at present without the most determined opposition.
serious inconvenience to the public serGENERAL CODRINGTON said, he wish-vice. It is one, indeed, upon which I ed to express a hope that the Bill was so cannot enter into discussion with the framed as to include within its scope arti- noble Earl, and its discussion here may ficers and labourers regulary employed in prevent the possibility-and it is no more the Government establishments ; and also than a possibility—of the acceptance of to ask if its operation was to be retrospec- the propositions of the Lord High Comtive or otherwise. ?
missioner as the basis of future legisla