country. On the subject of the Indian | yet its general supervision will be more revenue alone being made the security for effectually exercised, under the new system the loan, I addressed a despatch to the Go- of administration, than it has been hitherto. vernment of India on the 19th of January I believe that supervision will do much last, a passage from which I will read :directly to remove abuses and to stimulate "While the extraordinary crisis through which improvements; and indirectly it will do you have past has fully justified the resort to much more; it will impress on the minds extraordinary measures for raising the requisite of Englishmen, serving in the East, the funds to meet the emergent military expenses which fact that their service is performed under the eyes of their own countrymen; it will hold out the hope of remedy for wrong suffered, and of punishment for wrong done; it will call forth, as they have never yet been called forth, those characteristic qualities of English statesmanship, that practical sagacity and administrative energy, which, throughout the long and varied course of our national existence, have always hitherto controlled fortune and commanded success. had suddenly and unexpectedly to be incurred, at a time when the revenue was as suddenly and unexpectedly diminished, I must impress upon your Government the great importance, on the resettlement of India, of your again, as in time past, depending solely on your local resources for the ways and means required for the conduct of the Indian Government, both here and in India. Every effort should be made so to provide for the wants of India that the loan for which Her Majesty's Government is about to obtain Parliamentary sanction may be the last required to be raised here." The noble Lord, whose Notice on the Paper was "Bill to enable the Secretary of State in Council of India to raise money in the United Kingdom, for the down without making any Motion; but on cries of "Move! move!" the noble Lord said that, instead of the Motion on the Paper, he would beg leave to move. "That this House will To-morrow resolve itself into a Committee to consider of enabling the Secretary of State in Council of India to raise money in the United Kingdom, for the service of the Government of India." Question proposed. SIR CHARLES WOOD said, he had wished to make a few observations to the House, but he thought that the fairest and most obvious method on this, as on other matters of a similar nature, would be to take no discussion that night, but to postpone it until the following sitting. I have now, Sir, endeavoured-I well know how imperfectly, and I also know at what length to describe to this House the financial state and requirements of India. I have shown you what is the actual financial state of that country-I have in-service of the Government of India," sat dicated its principal sources of revenueI have touched upon its burden of debt, past and present-I have dwelt on the rapid increase of Indian commerce in late years, and I have attempted to shadow forth and indicate the means by which that commerce may be further developed and extended. If I have succeeded in conveying to the House the impression that exists in my own mind, I should say that the present state of India is such as to require and call forth the utmost vigilance, but not such as to give cause for despondency. I do not deny that the present embarrassments are grave. I do not affirm that we have seen their end; but I do say that any difficulties that may yet have to be surmounted are not greater than peace and good Government may enable us, in a few years, to surmount. The permanent burden is that to which alone we need look when considering the future; and I think I have shown that the permanent burden on the resources of India is light when compared with the future amount of these resources if duly developed. Much has been done, and much is still doing, to open India to the enterprise of England and the world. Every year the distance between the two countries is lessened. Every year the interest felt here in Oriental affairs is increased. And, though it may be vain to expect that this House will ever undertake a minute and continuous supervision of Indian affairs, SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he wished to inquire of the noble Lord whether he would have any objection to lay on the table of the House the despatch of the 10th of January, relating to the finances of India, since it appeared to him that the House was in considerable darkness regarding that important matter? He would also suggest the laying before the House a Return showing the expenses of the troops in various parts of India, distinguishing the cost of the officers and men; for the consideration of these subjects would form an important element in dealing with the subject of Indian finance, and assist the House in any future discussion of the question. SIR ERSKINE PERRY said, he wish ed to know whether the noble Lord would lay on the table the papers and accounts on which he had based his statement of that evening? It was impossible for hon. Members to carry the noble Lord's figures in their heads. Another point worthy of attention was this:-The noble Lord had that night given them a statement of the revenue of India for the year 1856-7, which differed considerably from the figures contained in the official documents before the House. The noble Lord had given the gross revenue at £33,000,000 odd, whereas the published accounts laid on the table last year stated the amount at £29,500,000. Unless the noble Lord furnished hon. Members with the papers from which he derived the larger figures that he had quoted, it would be impossible for them to meet him on the ground that he had selected. MR. AYRTON said, that notices of Motion had precedence to-morrow, and it was desirable they should know whether this discussion would proceed then, or be taken on Friday. MR. EWART said, he would suggest that on so important a question hon. Gentlemen having notices of Motion for tomorrow should give way. SIR CHARLES WOOD said, he apprehended there was no intention to offer any opposition to the present Motion of the noble Lord, because in the present state of Indian affairs and finance he could not see what alternative there was but the payment of the expenses that the war had entailed upon them. At the same time it would be impossible to go on with the discussion until the very material discrepancy between the noble Lord's figures and those of the Return presented at the end of last Session was cleared up or explained away. That discrepancy was one of between three and four millions sterling upon the Indian revenue for 1856-7., Perhaps it arose from the noble Lord quoting the gross receipts instead of the net. LORD STANLEY said, he had taken his figures from the documents at the India House. He had stated at the outset that he estimated the rupee at 2s., whereas, in the return to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, the rupee was computed at Is. 10d. That might account for the difference. He knew of no other explanation. COLONEL SYKES remarked that he had seen nothing of the discrepancy to which allusion had been made. He had no doubt that if the debate were deferred till tomorrow, the noble Lord would be able to produce the figures on which he had based his statement. MR. KINNAIRD said, the noble Lord, in his able and comprehensive speech, had alluded to financial and other reforms, but had not informed them whether it was intended to introduce the police system into Bengal and other parts of India. LORD STANLEY replied that, a large scheme for the establishment of a military police in India had been sent home by the local Government. MR. VERNON SMITH said, he thought that unless the noble Lord furnished more information relative to the discrepancies that had been discovered they would be exactly in the same position as they were then, and they must postpone it until some other night, until the requisite information was supplied. The noble Lord had not only quoted returns different from 1856-7, but had quoted figures bearing on the probable prospects of 1858-9, from information in his own private possession, and regarding which they had no possible sort of information. No doubt the noble Lord sketched the picture from information in his own possession, but not in possession of the House; and therefore the House would be precluded going into it. The noble Lord said he would present a letter to the House written to him, stating all the results he had enunciated that night in so clear and able a manner; and if he did so, they could then proceed with the general discussion, and if not, all they would have to refer to was the speech of the noble Lord himself. He hoped the noble Lord would produce it before they discussed the second reading of the Bill, and give the House further time for consideration. MR. BAILLIE said, he could only repeat the explanation already given of the discrepancy between the two statements of the revenue of 1856-7. By reckoning the rupee at 1s. 10d., instead of 28. they would get a difference of several millions. [An hon. MEMBER: No, no! only one million and a half.] Moreover, the Par liamentary paper to which reference had been made was probably only an estimate, not an account of actual receipts and expenditure. SIR CHARLES WOOD: No; it is the usual annual account laid before Parliament. MR. BAILLIE said, that the accounts given that evening by his noble Friend might be relied upon as perfectly accu- I would afford his noble Friend an opportunity of answering them. rate. LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, he thought it would be very inconvenient as well as difficult for the House to enter on the discussion of the question of the whole finance of India on Tuesday, and upon the questions that the noble Lord had dealt with with so much ability and clearness. He could not see any objection to allowing the noble Lord to introduce his Bill, whatever the opinion of the House might be upon its merits, but it would be inconvenient to take the discussion either then or on the night ensuing, on so important a subject. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he believed the discrepancies alluded to might be easily accounted for, on going into detail and Committee, and he agreed with the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), that as the subject was of great importance the House was not called upon to come to any sudden decision. The facts and statements that his noble Friend had placed before them with so much comprehension and lucidity, required to be fairly considered by the House, and on further information placed before the House the discrepancies noticed might be easily accounted for. The second reading of a Bill was the stage at which, according to usual custom, measures were discussed upon their merits. He thought that the question might be further fairly considered on Friday, but that it would be inexpedient to interfere with the routine business on Tuesday, which was set apart as a Motion day. He would suggest the adoption of this course, without at all anticipating the decision of the House upon a subject which was not only important in its general character, but important in all the details it involved. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, it was now nearly a year since he put a similar question to the one on the paper to the noble Earl opposite, the VicePresident of the Board of Trade-namely, Whether Her Majesty's Government intend to introduce any Measure in the present Session of Parliament to relieve the Shipping Interest from Passing Tolls and other Burdens? At the time he put that question last year, he was told that a measure was under the consideration of the Government to relieve the shipping interest from either a portion or from the whole of the burdens which pressed upon it. So long a time having elapsed, he thought he was now entitled to ask the Question again, and he did so with the confident hope and expectation that Her Majesty's Government would be able to inform their Lordships whether they had prepared a measure for the purpose. He also had more confidence in putting this Question, because the Government was in possession of all the information which, he apprehended, was necessary to come to a decision upon it; and moreover they had already expressed an opinion as to the course which ought to be pursued for the relief of the shipping interest. It was now more than six years MR. WALPOLE said, that on the part since the right hon. Gentleman, the present of the Government he would willingly ac- Chancellor of the Exchequer-who then cede to the suggestion that the Motion also filled the office of Chancellor of the now put from the Chair should be that the Exchequer-announced to Parliament the House do resolve itself into Committee on measures which the Government intended Friday next, which would give everybody to place before Parliament, and he informthe opportunity of asking questions, and ed the other House that a measure had LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, perhaps the noble Lord would move that on Friday the House would resolve itself into Committee upon the Bill. In answer to Sir ERSKINE PERRY, LORD STANLEY said, he would lay on the table the financial despatch to which reference had been made, together with a statement respecting the loan. been prepared for the purpose of relieving the shipping interest from the burdens of passing tolls, light dues, stamp duties upon insurances, and charter parties, and that there were grievances and burdens which the shipping interest ought not to bear and from which they ought to be relieved. He would now ask the noble Earl whether Her Majesty's Government intended to bring forward any measure of this nature in the course of the present Session. He should confine his observations to those matters on which, from their nature, there could be no difference of opinion, for it was admitted on all sides that these were grievances, and which ought to be removed. He thought it the more necessary to call the attention of their Lordships to this matter, because he perceived, with regret, at most of the recent meetings of the shipping interest, a disposition on the part of the shipowners to look in a different direction for relief from their present distress. He was not, however, astonished at that, seeing the encouragement they had received from the letter of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in answer to the memorial of the Chamber of Commerce at Greenock during the recess, in which the noble Lord stated, through Mr. Hammond, that he had seen with great regret "That the apprehensions that were entertained by many persons of the probable effect of the abolition of the navigation laws have been realized, and that the efforts of Her Majesty's Government have hitherto proved unavailing to obtain for the shipping of England that reciprocity of the liberal measures she has granted to other nations which she was entitled to expect." He (Lord Stanley of Alderley) would ask their Lordships whether it was not likely that the shipowners would consider that they had received the greatest encouragement from that letter to prosecute their demands, and to urge Her Majesty's Government to recommend the Legislature, if not a return to the navigation laws, at least to retrace its steps as far as possible in that direction? The memorial of the Chamber of Commerce at Greenock, to which the letter written by the noble Earl had reference, complained of the distress of the shipping interest, and prayed that Her Majesty would by an Order in Council put in operation the restrictions she was empowered to enforce against non-reciprocating countries. He hoped he should hear from Her Majesty's Government that there was no intention on their part to give encouragement to VOL. CLII. [THIRD SERIES]. the expectations of those gentlemen, who looked with alarm and apprehension to the effect of the repeal of the navigation laws on their interests. He should be sorry to hear that Her Majesty had been obliged to have recourse to a retaliatory policy against non-reciprocating nations. Let their Lordships consider for a moment the position of the mercantile marine of this country. What were the countries which had not given us complete reciprocity? The only two countries of any importance were Spain and France. With regard to Spain, he granted that she had not given us any reciprocity whatever; but the whole trade of Spain was comparatively insignificant, and if it was thrown entirely open the advantage to British shipping would be infinitessimal. With respect to France, we had already a fair share of her trade, and one of the greatest difficulties to its extension had been the continued existence in this country of certain local burdens, which France always made the ground for a refusal of a reciprocity in a commercial treaty. The United States of America had given us a complete reciprocity, as respected the general trade, and what they had not reciprocated with us, was the coasting trade, which, however, included the trade with California. However much this was to be regretted as a churlish return for the liberal manner in which they had been dealt with by the country, the advantage that would accrue to British shipping if the whole of the American coasting trade was thrown open, would be quite insignificant. He should be prepared at any time to give his opinion of the great benefits which British navigation had derived from the repeal of the navigation laws. The last four or five years had no doubt been exceptional, both as to the sudden spring which the shipping interest received, and the great demand for shipping which existed during the first Crimean war, and then the Indian mutiny. If the navigation laws had been still in force in that interval, and the English shipowners had, by any means, been compelled to find a sufficient number of ships to meet the whole of that sudden demand, their ships would now have been thrown on their hands, and they would thus have been subjected to still greater depression and additional distress. He trusted the shipowners would seek relief, not from any reversal of the existing policy, but from a remission of those bur dens which had been a constant source of grievance to them, and regarded as such by Members on both sides of their Lordships' House; and that he should hear from Her Majesty's Government that they were now prepared to carry into effect the pledge given while they were in office in 1852, that they would introduce a Bill for the relief of the shipping interest from passing tolls and other burdens. THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said, that into the policy of the repeal of the navigation laws, on which the noble Lord had sought to raise a discussion, he should not enter, because he was not a Member of their Lordships' House when the repeal took place, and also because it had really nothing to do with the question of which the noble Lord had given notice. Before, however, answering the question he wished to correct a slight inaccuracy in the statement of the noble Lord, and to supply some omissions. In the first place, it was not correct to say that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated in 1852 that he had a Bill prepared for the relief of the shipping interest by the repeal of those passing tolls and other burdens; but it was true that his right hon. Friend then stated that he was prepared to expend £100,000 towards that object. When the Government of which the noble Lord was a Member came into office in 1852, they did not propose any measure for the relief of these burdens for a considerable period not, indeed, until the year 1856. Last Session this matter was for a considerable time under the consideration of the Government, and he had himself studied the question with the greatest care. Having done so, he must now tell the noble Lord that the Government were not at present prepared to introduce any measure on the subject, and for the simple reason that they could not see their way to any satisfactory arrangement. The anomalies of many of these tolls were admitted, but it would be useless to occupy their Lordships' time with the discussion of a plan that would be open to all sorts of objections; and he could not therefore express a hope that the Government would be able, within any specific time, to submit any measure on the subject to Parliament. on the 2nd of August, 1839, praying that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased, by all Means within Her Majesty's Power, to negotiate with the Governments of Foreign Nations, as well in America as in Europe, for their Concurrence in effectually putting down the Traffic in Slaves; and also that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to give such Orders to Her Majesty's Crusiers as may be most efficacious in stopping the said Traffic, more especially that carried on under the Portuguese Ships; assuring Her Majesty that this House will cheerfully concur with the other House of Parliament in whatever Meashall be graciously pleased to comply with this sures may be rendered necessary, if Her Majesty Prayer; be read by the Clerk. The same was agreed to; and the said Address was accordingly read by the Clerk. LORD BROUGHAM then presented a petition from the Inhabitants of the Parish of Saint Catherine and the surrounding Districts in public meeting assembled at Spanish Town, Jamaica, for the suppres sion of Slavery and the Slave Trade, and said he had wished that their Lordships should be reminded of the steps which they had taken in 1839, and of the beneficial results which had ensued. Upon that occasion the Portuguese and Spanish slaves trades were especially specified as calling for more active measures toward their suppression. It appeared now that the Portuguese slave trade had entirely ceased, and although that was no doubt in some measure owing to the steps which had been taken by this country, and partly in consequence of their Lordships' address just read, still it would be most unjust to withhold from the Portuguese — aye, and from the Brazilian Government too the credit of having entirely and absolutely fulfilled their engagements with us; and not only was that the case, but they also acted well to the emancipated negroes. So completely had circumstances changed that in Brazil coloured persons were admitted to official privileges and to an equality of social intercourse, from which, he grieved to say, they were still debarred in the United States. The Spanish slave trade, however, still survived, notwithstanding all our attempts to put it down, and it was to this subject that the petition he was about to present to their Lordships had reference. That petition was similar to one which had been presented last Session by the right rev. Prelate opposite (the Bishop of Oxford), with an eloquence that would not soon be forgotten, and was "That the Address to Her Majesty, agreed to adopted at a public meeting held at Spanish SLAVERY-CUBA SLAVE TRADE. PETITION. LORD BROUGHAM moved, |