the manner in which this tribunal, which of necessity must have a limited jurisdiction, is to be connected with other tribunals, to which resort must be constantly had to determine questions that will arise, not only on the declaration of title, but afterwards. When caveats have been entered, or inhibitions put in, questions will constantly arise as to what conditions must be observed previous to the estate being released from the operation of that species of injunction. In what manner those questions are to be settled, or what superior tribunal they are to be settled by, my hon. and learned Friend abstains at present from mentioning, though no doubt one will be provided. There is another point of some importance to which I wish to advert, in order to warn my hon. and learned Friend of the great difficulty he will have to encounter, and I mention from the experience I had in respect to the Testamentary Jurisdiction Bill. The great question arises on the interests of practitioners. I was willing to incur all the odium of establishing a metropolitan court of probate and registry of wills; but eventually I found myself compelled, mainly by the hon. Gentlemen who now sit on the other side of the House, to establish local registries as well; and I am afraid my hon. and learned Friend will be compelled to make a similar compromise in respect to this matter. I quite admit the superior claims of a metropolitan registry; but I have no doubt that great difficulties will arise on that subject. With regard to the other details of the Bill, they are so numerous and important that I will not at the present moment trouble the House by any observations upon them, all I can say is, that I am quite sure my hon. and learned Friend will concur with me in the propriety of giving considerable time after the Bill is printed to enable us to study them. The success of the measure will of necessity depend almost wholly upon the machinery being simple, economical, intelligible, and such as recommends itself to the country. It is of little consequence to the country at large by whom an important and useful measure is introduced; and I am glad that the measure now before the House has been brought forward by the present Government, because from their more intimate connection with the landed interest it will be more generally welcome, and will be accepted with greater confidence than if I had had the good fortune to have prevailed on the late Government to introduce it. I assure my hon. and learned Friend that in all its stages the measure will receive the most cordial support from my hands, and I trust that so great a measure of legal reform, and one so well calculated to confer advantage upon the community will be successfully carried through both Houses during the present Session. MR. DOBBS expressed his general concurrence in the measure. As the establishment of the Incumbered Estates Court and the Court of Registry in Ireland had been alluded to, he must add that he thought the operation of the Bill would be much assisted by the order and regularity which prevailed in this country. At the same time he quite admitted that the establishment of similar courts in Ireland had been productive of great good, and he had no doubt the same results would accrue to England from the measure now before the House. MR. AYRTON said, it must be a source of immense gratification to those who, like himself, took part in bringing about the recent change of Ministry, to hear from such a great authority as the hon. and learned Member for Aylesbury (Sir R. Bethell), that it was necessary to place the present Government in office in order to inaugurate an era of comprehensive and useful reforms. But he wished to draw the attention of the hon. and learned Solicitor General to one or two points. The Bill was divided into two parts. One was a measure attempted some centuries ago, to give to landed gentlemen a judicial title to their estates. But, unfortunately, at that time legislation was not quite so elaborate as it was at present. From that day to this the system of giving a judicial title to an estate had been a great desideratum, both for landed gentlemen and for those who dealt in money, but it had not hitherto been established. He hoped the present Bill would be sufficient to protect, on the one hand, the honest owner in the possesssion of his land, and enable him, on the other, to deal as freely with it as he could with other kinds of property. The second part of the Bill was intended to relieve the landed interest from one of those doctrines of the Courts of Equity which had proved so injurious to the country that all trusts followed the land into the hands of a purchaser for value. But, instead of going into that subject, he wished to ask an explanation upon a point which the Solicitor General had not made quite clear to his mind. According to the law of England a title to land was land had been established which was out of not complete unless it were followed by all proportion, and was totally opposed possession. In that respect there was to every principle of political economy. some difference between landed and other He hoped the same rate of charge would species of property; and, while he admired not be adopted under this Act. The the great ability which the Commissioners rate of charge in Ireland was much too manifested in their Report, he could not high, and the result was that charging understand how they came to subscribe 1 per cent on all property kept large esthe paragraph in which they declared that tates out of the Court. they could not discover any distinction between land and other descriptions of property, such as stock, railway shares, and ships. MR. WALPOLE: There is no such phrase in the Report. MR. AYRTON: There was something very like it-that they could not recognize any distinction between the principles on which a person should deal with the one kind of property or the other. The Solicitor General was wrong in supposing that there was not a complete registry with regard to ships. No deed could affect a ship, nor could there be any interest in a ship, unless it was registered. MR. WALPOLE: It is not so now. MR. AYRTON: It was so until recently, and ships stood on a different footing from land, inasmuch as a ship was always a single thing, and could be identified at once with the deed relating to it. A trustee in possession of stock had not a material thing at all, but merely a right to sue the Bank of England. Both ships and stock, however, were in the exclusive possession of those who had the title. It was not so in the case of land. The legal owner of an estate in land, speaking gene rally, was not in possession of it. Property was held in trust for gentlemen for life, and a person might be in possession of an estate and in receipt of the rents although his name might not appear on the registry, but only that of the trustee. Now, at the end of twenty years, according to the existing law, the trustee merely as the registered owner would have no right whatever to the property, because twenty years' adverse possession gave an absolute title: and what he wanted to know was, how the Solicitor General proposed to connect the possession with the title if there were to be no investigation into all the intermediate interests in the land? MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he was happy to add his testimony to the great merit of the measure; but he was desirous of inquiring of the Government, whether they proposed to adopt the precedent of the Irish Transfer of Land Act. Under that Act a rate of charges for transfers of MR. LOWE said, he had listened with great pleasure to the admirable exposition of this subject which the House had heard from the Solicitor General, and could only echo what had been said by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aylesbury, that the introduction of this measure. reflected the highest credit upon Her Majesty's Government. By bringing it in they were doing all they could to benefit the landed interest, an interest with which they were supposed to be so much connected. That, however, did not diminish the credit to which they were entitled for it, because, looking to the past, it was quite possible that their efforts might not be appreciated quite so well as they deserved by those for whose benefit they were made. Having had something to do with these matters at other times, he wished to give an answer to the criticism of the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton). That hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to think that those who framed the Report of the Commission had fallen into a confusion of terms, in endeavouring to liken the transfer of land to the transfer of a ship, and that ships, stock, and land, were things so essentially different in their nature that the same principles could not be applied to them. As well might he contend that the same auctioneer could not sell the three. It was quite true that there were many obvious differences between these three things; but it was equally true that they were all capable of being represented before the public by a person clothed with all the attributes of ownership, for the purpose of transferring them, while the beneficial ownership did not appear before the public, and might be subject to any modifications which persons chose to impose. The system upon which ships were transferred was brought into operation by the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854, two years before the Commission made its Report: the system had been completely successful, and from his experience at the Board of Trade he could state that it had given the greatest satisfaction to the owners of ships, With regard to stock, the system had titles to and transfers of lands; and if it could be done, it would be a great benefit to the public. But great benefits had of late years been conferred in this way, and he could say that titles to land had been simplified and the laws relating thereto had been greatly simplified; still he admitted that these laws were very imperfect, and if it could be proved by experience that titles could be simplified, and that the new Court been in existence for 100 years, and therefore the Commissioners were not without grounds for thinking that this system of having one person to represent the ownership for the purpose of transfer, and leaving the beneficial interest to be arranged as parties pleased among themselves, had been well tested, and was well worthy of approbation. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Ayrton) had also asked how it was possible to connect the title on the call it by what name they might-could, register with the possession of land. How by declaration, give the owner of land a was a title shown by deeds now connected title which should be conclusive when he with possession? A man might produce sold, mortgaged, or otherwise dealt with his deeds showing a good title; but how did estate, it would be of the greatest possible that prove that the deeds had any relation benefit; but as this was to be confined to to the land which they professed to convey? owners in fee who had been in possession All lawyers knew that you must go to the for five years, and as no judicial declaraland itself, and there pursue inquiries into tion was to be finally made until the end of the possession on the one side and the fifteen months, he was afraid that the meadeeds on the other, until you brought the sure would not be of so extensive applicatwo to some point of contact. In the same tion as might at first sight be expected. way, after this Bill was passed, if it be- He was glad that the registration was to came law, a man would have to take what be a registration of title only, and not a was shown on the face of the register, general registration of deeds; but, as it ownership, mortgages, caveats, inhibitions, was to be confined to titles judicially deand whatever was shown there, as a start-clared to be good, it would only apply to ing point, on the one side, and on the other must, with such assistance as he could obtain from the seller, pursue his investigations upon the land until he brought the ownership and possession to a point of contact, and satisfied himself that there was a good title. The difficulties, such as they were, were ejusdem generis, and could be easily removed in the same manner. There were no objections to this plan, which had not been thoroughly considered by the Commission in the course of its three years' incessant labour; and although he might not have replied to the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets so well as the Solicitor General would have done, he was anxious to show that even the least learned and least competent members of the Commission did not venture to launch a matter of this enormous importance, and dealing with such vast interests, without at least having given to it the consideration which it deserved. MR. MALINS said, he fully concurred in the observations which had been made as to the ability with which his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General had introduced this measure, and would promise that the Bill should receive his best consideration. At the same time he thought it right to state that the impression on his mind was, that rather too sanguine expectations were enter tained as to its results. He was a great advocate for simplifying comparatively few cases. The Irish Incumbered Estate Court had now been in estate operation ten years. Suppose the case of vantage, a system of estates for life, with remainder in tail, and portions for younger children, with other complicated arrangements, the House might continue to have glittering pictures of simplicity of titles to land, which would, however, only be simple for a time. A judicial declaration would enable the owner of land to commence with a good and short title, but after a series of caveats, inhibitions, and complicated settlements, the title to the land would, in the course of time, become just as complicated as ever. If, however, the Bill, upon an inspection of the details, should appear calculated to diminish the complications which at present existed, he would give his hon. and learned Friend his best assistance in perfecting the measure. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. MR. WALPOLE, in moving for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Acts relating to the Ecclesiastical Commission, said, that as it had, in a great measure, been before the House on a former occasion, those who took an interest in it would find it more convenient to have the Bill in their hands before he explained the main points to which he thought attention should be directed. He wished to have an opportunity of explaining it, because he thought there had been misunderstanding with respect to it. There were four points involved-first, the management and restoration of episcopal estates to those entitled to them; secondly, the mode of requiring accounts from the different chapters, and dealing with capitular property in a similar manuer to episcopal property, so as to put an end by degrees to the system of reHenewal of leases on lives; thirdly, the extension of the principle of local claims to other property besides tithes; and, fourth, the mode in which it was proposed to put an end to all leases or renewals on fines, and the specific period when they should cease, providing, that in the meanwhile those persons should receive the full right of renewal, according to the recommendations of the Commissioners. With this short explanation he hoped the House would permit him to bring in the Bill. MR. HADFIELD thought that if the Solicitor General loaded the title with all the equitable interests that might affect it, he would gain very little by this Bill. had great doubts about making the office for all this business in London. In Lancashire the subdivision of property was almost infinite, and it was not so easy for country attorneys to commission their agents in London to make these inquiries as the hon. and learned Gentleman appeared to think. As it was to be optional for parties to come before the Court or not, he anticipated that very few landowners in Lancashire and Yorkshire would come into Court with their titles. Leave given. Bill to amend the Acts relating to the House adjourned at a Quarter before HOUSE OF LORDS, RIGHT OF SEARCH. LORD WODEHOUSE said, that in asking the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the question of which he had given notice as to the recent correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States respect ing the Right of Search, he trusted he General Cass felt highly delighted; but might be allowed to explain why he as to the question of what was to be thought this Correspondence should be laid done in order to verify the flag of a merupon the Table of the House at this early chant vessel in time of peace, General Cass period of the Session, instead of their was not only unwilling to propose any arLordships having to wait for it until the rangement, but he thought that in no case usual time when the Slave Trade Cor- should such verification be permitted. respondence would be placed before them. Every one must admit the right of search It would, no doubt, be in the recollection by an armed cruiser was quite a different of their Lordships that during last Session thing from the right of verifying the title of serious discussions arose between the Go- a merchant vessel to carry the flag of a vernment of Her Majesty and the Govern- particular nation. The difference was imment of the United States in respect to portant, because if it was to be laid down the right of search generally, and with re- that in no case should a visit be made to a ference in particular to certain proceed- merchant vessel to ascertain her right to ings of British cruisers on the coast carry a particular flag, pirates would be of Cuba, of which the American Govern- allowed to occupy the seas with impunity, ment complained. Towards the close of as the hoisting of a different flag to that the Session the noble Earl the Secre- under which the cruiser sailed would insure tary for Foreign Affairs stated to the inviolability. The same would be the House that the right of search had been case with slavers, who would hoist any flag given up by Her Majesty's Government, that would be most convenient for the mobut that a correspondence was going on ment. He had only made those few rewith the Government of the United States marks in order that their Lordships might with the view of fixing upon some definite know how the matter stood, and, as he arrangement whereby, for the future, the thought it was important that they should right of vessels to carry a particular flag have the correspondence before them, he might be verified. He (Lord Wodehouse) begged to ask the Secretary of State for could not understand the proposition that Foreign Affairs whether he would lay on the right of search had been abandoned, the table of the House copies of the recent because the right of search could only be Correspondence between Her Majesty's exercised as a belligerent right, or under Government and the Government of the the stipulations of treaties, and neither of United States respecting the right of search. those cases applied to the United States. | THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: My As negotiations between the two Govern- Lords, I have not the least objection to lay ments were proceeding at that time, the this correspondence before your Lordships. matter had stood over; but during the I am afraid, however, as my noble Friend recess a correspondence was presented has read that portion of it which has been by the President of the United States Go- published in America, he will find little vernment, to the American Congress, and of novelty or amusement in the papers had been reprinted in the English news- which will be produced here. I think, papers. In that Correspondence-which, however, the noble Lord would have in some respects, was of a very remarkable consulted the convenience of the House character it appeared that the question if he had waited until the Corresponon this subject was still in a very uncertain and most unsatisfactory condition. There was a despatch of the American Minister in this country, which gave a somewhat surprising example of the celerity with which the noble Earl transacted business, for it appeared that the noble Earl had not only changed his opinions in twenty-four hours, but that at the end of that time he had drawn up a complete account of international law, which he handed to the American Minister, as an authoritative acknowledgment of the doctrine held by Her Majesty's Government. The noble Earl appeared to have adopted the principles of General Cass, and no doubt dence was laid upon the table before he indulged in the remarks he has made, as I expect but few of your Lordships have seen that portion which has been published. My noble Friend appears to be surprised, and not unnaturally, considering the account which has appeared of the conversation which I had with the American Minister, and which that Mnister reported to his Government, and infers that within twenty-four hours I had entirely changed my opinions. But that is easily explained. Upon the first day on which the Minister of the United States called upon me, and asked my opinion upon certain points of international law |