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were his duties in connection with these institutions. The analogy of the English Act, which had generally worked well, had been adhered to in framing the present measure, as far as was consistent with the state of things prevalent in Ireland, and he sincerely hoped that with the assistance of the House this Bill, which was imperatively called for on behalf of that unfortunate class whom it had pleased Providence to visit with the most dreadful calamity which could befall the human race, and who ought, therefore, to be the first objects of their care and benevolence, would be speedily passed into a law. The noble Lord concluded by moving for leave to introduce the Bill.

MR. BAGWELL said, he hoped his Lordship would introduce some provisions relating to the criminal lunatics instead of ignoring them altogether, as he had said the Bill would do. The gaols of Ireland were already sufficiently occupied, and any relief that could be given with respect to them would be a seasonable improvement. He regretted to hear that the appointment of all the committees requisite to carry out the provisions of the Bill was to be vested in the grand jury, for they were formed generally of just the kind of people who were most energetic in raking up that party spirit which it was the desire of all right-minded persons to extinguish in Ireland, and this was certain to break out in the choice of the medical and other officers attached to these asylums. Beyond these matters, he quite concurred in the necessity for such a Bill as that proposed by his Lordship.

MR. H. HERBERT wished to know if it were intended to adopt the literal recommendation of the Commissioners that a portion of the board of visitors should be nominated by the grand juries?

LORD NAAS replied in the negative. He must be allowed to express his surprise at the objection which had been raised by the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell). If there was one thing more desirable than another, it was that the control of institutions supported by local rates should be vested in the representatives of those who had to pay for them; and he must say he was greatly astonished to hear any gentleman declare in this House a preference for appointments such as these being made by the Executive Goverument rather than by local bodies. The experience of Ireland showed that wherever local authority was extended and

put in action the system had worked well; and his own opinion was that it should be the object of all true Irishmen to get rid of that centralized system of Government, where the circumstances of the case permitted it to be done with safety to the public interests.

MR. ESMONDE did not regard grand juries in the light of representatives of the cesspayers. They were nominated by the high sheriffs; and it was a fundamental principle of the Irish grand jury law, that no money should be voted by the grand jury until it had first been assented to at a meeting of the magistrates and associated cesspayers. He trusted when the House was called upon to consider the details of the Bill the noble Lord would consent to an alteration of this portion of his scheme.

Bill to consolidate and amend the Law relating to the Lunatic Poor in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Lord NAAS and Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for Ireland. Bill presented, and read 1o.

House adjourned at Eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Tuesday, February 8, 1859. MINUTES.] Sat First in Parliament.—The Lord Maryborough-after the Death of his Father. PUBLIC BILL.-1a Transfer of Real Estate.

DILAPIDATIONS IN GLEBE HOUSES. QUESTION.

VISCOUNT DUNGANNON put a question, of which he had given notice, in reference to the present state of the law relative to dilapidations in glebe houses. It was a subject, he said, of anxious interest to a large body of the parochial clergy throughout the country. The existing law as regarded dilapidations was not only most unjust in every sense, but in many instances exceedingly oppressive. An incumbent frequently succeeded to an insolvent predecessor, or to a living which had been several years in sequestration, and might be called upon to make extensive reparations; but in such a case he had no adequate remedy; and sometimes, particularly in the diocese of London, a clergyman frequently removed from benefice to another, and might be called upon to make repairs, for which he received no compensation whatever-which he need not say was a manifest injustice.

He

hoped himself to be able to introduce a measure to meet the case, but he would much prefer that the matter should be taken up by the natural guardian of the Established Church in that House. He therefore wished to ask the right rev. Prelate who presided over the diocese of London, whether any measure, sanctioned by the right reverend Bench, was likely to be introduced during the present Session, to alter and amend the Law relative to Dilapidations in Glebe Houses.

ships could judge from that provision how necessary it was that the measure should be carefully considered before it was finally sanctioned. He wished to ask whether the Royal Assent had been given to the Jamaica Immigration Act.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON said, that perhaps the best mode in which he could answer the question of his noble and learned Friend would be to state very briefly the circumstances under which the subject had come under the consideration THE BISHOP OF LONDON said, he was of the Colonial Office. Last year the Jainstructed by the right rev. Primate to maica Legislature passed an Act for the give an answer to the question of the noble encouragement of immigration into that Viscount. The subject referred to was colony. That Act was sent home for the one of much difficulty, and had been under Royal sanction; but his noble Friend (Lord the consideration of those Bishops who were Stanley), who at that time filled the office in town during the last week, the result of of Colonial Secretary, considered that some which had been that instructions were given of the provisions of the measure were of to prepare a measure which, though he could so questionable a nature that he had no not make a promise, would, it was hoped, alternative but to disallow it; and it was be introduced and be found satisfactory. accordingly sent back to Jamaica disallowed. But his noble Friend, at the JAMAICA IMMIGRATION ACT-QUESTION. same time, expressed to the Legislature at LORD BROUGHAM, in rising to put a Jamaica his regret at finding himself comquestion of which he had given notice said, pelled to pursue that course, and his readihe understood that not less than seventy ness to advise Her Majesty to sanction any of the principal towns had sent memorials measure calculated to promote a system of to the Colonial Office urging that the Royal immigration into the colony which should Assent might not be given to the Immigra. be free from the objections which had intion Act passed by the House of Assembly duced him to disallow that particular Act. of Jamaica for the encouragement of immi- At the same time the noble Lord drew the gration. He hoped to hear from the noble attention of the colonial Legislature to Earl that that Assent had not been given. a model Bill that had been sent out to He should not enter upon the subject in any Jamaica during the time that the Duke of detail at present, but, if the Royal Assent Newcastle held the seals of the Colonial had unhappily already been given, the mat- Office, and had been adopted by other ter must at some time come under the con- colonies as a guide for their legislation on sideration of Parliament. He would remind this subject. The Jamaica Legislature the House of what he had stated on a for- considered the question, and framed a mer evening respecting the haste-he might measure which, although there were cersay the hurry, with which the Bill had been tain blemishes in the Bill which required passed through the local legislature: no to be carefully weighed, still he (the Earl time had been allowed for the presentation of Carnarvon) was bound to say was, on of petitions against it-indeed but a short the whole, in conformity with the repretime previous it had been ordered that a sentations of his noble Friend, who was at fee of 10s. should be paid upon the pre- that time at the head of the Colonial sentation of each petition to the legisla- Office; and, he would add, that his right ture. One of the provisions in the Act hon. Friend who had succeeded to that was of a most extraordinary character, department (Sir E. B. Lytton) had, after conferring power-not upon the magis- a full and careful consideration of the varinot upon the chief officers-ous objections which had been made against but upon immigration agents and sub- the Bill, determined to submit it to Her agents and upon the deputies men Majesty in Council, for confirmation, upon with salaries of £100 a year-to in- the first convenient opportunity. He did flict imprisonment with hard labour upon not wish to go into the general question of any negro who happened to violate any of Immigration at present, as his noble and the clauses of his contract. Their lord-learned Friend himself had not done so ;

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but he felt it right to say a word or two | the despatches of numerous Secretaries of upon the objections that had been urged State; and, still more, in general acagainst the Bill. He was well aware that cordance with the model Bill sent out for many memorials had been presented against their guidance by the Government. Other the Bill from various parts of the coun- objections had been urged, to which he try, and they had been considered, as believed he could give an equally satisthey deserved to be, with great deference factory answer; but as they had not been and respect; but his right hon. Friend urged by his noble and learned Friend, he had come to the conclusion that the would not further allude to them. He greater part of these objections were urged would only say further, that though it was on a complete misconception of the case. the intention of his right hon. Friend to The system of immigration into the West recommend Her Majesty to sanction the India islands was not new-it had been Act, there were one or two provisions established for nearly fourteen years; it which the colonial Legislature would be rewas adopted by various colonies, and had commended to amend. been sanctioned by a number of successive LORD BROUGHAM observed, that so Administrations; and he was bound to say far as the question of the measure having that it had worked, upon the whole, very been passed with undue haste was consuccessfully and satisfactorily. Jamaica cerned, he should simply state that it had was almost the only colony that had not been brought into the House of Assembly hitherto availed itself of the advantages in Jamaica on Wednesday the 17th, and in respect of immigration which had been had been passed through all its stages by offered by the Government of this country, the Wednesday following; there having and now that for the first time it had been during that interval two days-Sapassed an Act which was in strict con- turday and Sunday-upon which no busiformity with the legislation of all the other ness could be transacted. West India colonies, his right hon. Friend that he had received information from the could not well refuse his sanction to a mea- most respectable quarters, that petitions sure which would give Jamaica the same were at the time in progress of preparation, benefits that were already enjoyed by not against immigration in general, but almost all the other West Indian colonies; against this particular Bill; but that they its confirmation would, in fact, amount to were prevented from presenting them by nothing more than the sanction of a set the extreme haste with which the measure of regulations which had been adopted passed through the House of Assembly. over and over again. He was sure, there- With respect to what his noble Friend said fore, that his noble and learned Friend about the system of immigration adopted would, under these circumstances, admit in other colonies, he pledged himself on that it would be unjust and unfair towards the fitting opportunity to demonstrate to Jamaica to withhold from that colony a pri- their Lordships that the measures thus vilege which had been repeatedly conceded taken were hostile to the independence in those other instances with the best and and security of the working classes in the happiest results. The observations which Colonies, and that they tended directly to his noble and learned Friend made were the encouragement of the slave trade, not entitled to the highest respect and atten- only on the coast of Africa, though that tion, but he thought his noble and learned was bad enough, but even in the eastern Friend was misled by the misrepresenta- possessions of the Crown. He observed tions of others. Take, for instance, the ob- by the powers of the Act that children under jection of his noble and learned Friend had the age of twelve years were indentured urged, that this measure was passed with to the planters. He should like to know precipitation. Now, the facts which he had who were the parties that signed these inalready stated showed that this was not so; dentures on the part of the children. He that the measure had, in point of fact, re- had lately seen an example of the trustceived considerable attention from the co-worthiness of the agents of immigration lonial Legislature in two consecutive Sessions, and that it was passed at last not in a hurried manner, but in conformity with the recommendations of the Secretary of State for the time being, and in conformity with the principles laid down in

and of the honesty of their undertakings in the East. He had had an opportunity of seeing the indentures of some immigrants who were nominally engaged to go to Demerara, and so the instrument was headed; but on looking into the body

of the indenture it turned out that they were to be taken to Bahia, in the Brazils; and others, who were nominally engaged to go to St. Vincent, were in reality taken to Cuba.

EARL GREY said, he should express no opinion upon the merits of the particular measure to which his noble and learned Friend referred, inasmuch as he had not seen it; but he could not, at the same time, refrain from remarking on what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord with respect to the system of immigration. The noble and learned Lord appeared to him to have indulged in a somewhat too unsparing condemnation of the system of immigration into the colonies generally. For his own part he felt assured that such a system would be found to be, under proper regulations and great pains had, he was bound to admit, been taken with the question under successive Governmentsproductive of considerable advantage to our West Indian colonies. It would provide the means of raising a formidable competition with slave-grown sugar; it had done much to contribute to the prosperity of the colonies themselves, especially to that of the Mauritius and Trinidad, while it led, he believed, to the happiest results in the case of the immigrants themselves, inasmuch as it was a well-known fact that upon returning to their native country at the expiration of five years many of them were in a position to take back with them large sums of money, and were so well satisfied with the treatment which they had received as to consent to revisit the scenes of their labours, frequently accompanied by their friends, whom they induced to follow their example. Only a few days since he had read an account of a ship which sailed from Guiana, carrying back a large number of coolies to India, who had with them a large sum of money. But while he could not concur with his noble and learned Friend in pronouncing a sweeping condemnation of the system of immigration, he was, at the same time, prepared to admit that the proceedings of the colonial Legislature upon the subject required to be watched with the closest care. For although slavery had long been abolished in the colonies, still more or less of the old spirit of the slaveholding class remained behind; and it was, therefore, desirable to scrutinize with the utmost closeness measures which, under the designation of Bills for promoting immigration, might give rise to a system of slavery. It was, therefore, with some sur

prise that he had heard from the noble Earl the Under Secretary for the Colonies the statement that, notwithstanding there were some objectionable clauses in the Act more immediately under discussion, it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to submit that Act to Her Majesty in Council with a view to its being confirmed. He was not aware of the nature of those objectionable clauses, but if there were anything seriously objectionable in them, the course proposed to be adopted seemed to him to be most injudicious and imprudent. So long as the Act was not submitted to Her Majesty for confirmation, the Government might make such suggestions to the Legislature for its amendment as they thought proper, and if those suggestions were rejected they might advise the Queen to disallow the law. When, however, that law was once confirmed by Her Majesty in Council the power of the Ministers was at an end. They could no longer enforce any alteration, however important, however indispensable it might be for the safe working of the measure, except by the difficult and objectionable course of an Act of the Imperial Parliament overruling the Act of the colonial Legislature. Upon that ground it had been hitherto the practice of the Home Government-certainly it had been the invariable practice when he was at the Colonial Office-to submit none of these Bills to Her Majesty for confirmation until they had been so amended as to be unobjectionable in the opinion of the advisers of the Crown. He was sorry to find that, according to the statement of the noble Earl, that policy was to be departed from in the present instance, and he could not help thinking that it would be much better to incur any amount of delay in submitting the Act for amendment to the colonial Legislation than that by advising Her Majesty to confirm it the Government should deprive itself of the power of getting the matter rightly settled.

LORD BROUGHAM in explanation said, his objections were not to all immigration, as he had shown last Session, when with his right reverend Friend (the Bishop of Oxford) he had admitted the good effects of free immigration to the Mauritius; but he objected to the manner of dealing with the subject in the Jamaica Bill, and other Colonial means of a like description.

THE EARL OF AIRLIE hoped the House would bear with him while he made a few remarks on this subject, in which, having

considerable property in Jamaica, he felt a deep interest. As those who preceded him in this discussion had not gone into the details of this particular measure, he also might be excused from making particular reference to it. The noble and learned Lord said that memorials and petitions had been sent up against the measure from various parts of the country. Nothing was easier than to get up petitions against any measure of this kind. They all knew that there was a society in London, the Anti-Slavery Association, which had a regular organization for the purpose; and if they sent down their agents to Manchester and Birmingham, and the different large towns to agitate against a measure of this kind, they would not have the slightest difficulty in obtaining signatures to their petitions against such a measure, especially if the petitioners had never seen it. If, how ever, he did not discuss the Act, he might advert to one or two of the arguments which had been used against it. The noble and learned Lord presented a petition against this measure the other night, containing statements which appeared to him not only inconsistent with the facts, but with one another. One of these statements was, that there was no want of labour in Jamaica; and another was, that various efforts had been used to procure labour before, but they all proved fruitless. Now, he should like to know how the one of these statements was to be reconciled with the other. But there was another statement still more extraordinary. It was stated that the free negroes of Jamaica apprehended that the introduction of fresh labour into the colony would lower the rate of the wages they were now receiving, and they prayed therefore that this Bill might not be assented to. Now he should have thought that even the free negroes of Jamaica must have learned by this time that the Government, and the Parliament, and the people of England, had abandoned all idea of fixing by Act of Parliament the price of commodities or the rate of wages. Passing to the general question of the supply of free labour to our West Indian colonies, it was notorious that it was well known that the production of sugar had largely fallen off in our colonies ever since the abolition of slavery, and that in the face of a steadily increasing demand. Many estates had been thrown out of cultivation, and he knew owners who would be very glad to sell their estates in Jamaica for one year's rent of

what they formerly used to receive. It was no answer to the owners of property in Jamaica or Trinidad to be told that other West Indian colonies were in a flourishing condition. The conditions were not the same in all these islands. In the larger islands there were vast tracts of waste lands on which the negroes were accustomed to squat, and where they could maintain their families comfortably without the necessity of working on the estates of the planters, and therefore, unless the immigrants were bound by indenture, they too would squat upon this land and refuse to labour. Neither was it any answer to the Jamaica planters to say that there were a few of their own number who were doing well. Why were they flourishing? Because they were few, because the land they had to bring into cultivation was of limited extent, and because from their situation they had the command of the labour market of Jamaica, such as it was; whereas if other planters were in competition with them, and a demand for labour arose in a limited market, the ruin of the whole would follow. It was admitted that in Jamaica and in several of the other islands there were vast tracts of land which were capable of cultivation, but which were now lying idle for want of a supply of labour. It was also admitted that in other countries there was a teeming population which would be benefited by employment. Why then should they not have it? So far was it from being true that the immigrants were subjected to illusage in the islands, he was informed that many of them, after returning to their own country, had entered into fresh engagements, and were going out again to Jamaica. The demand for sugar in this country he believed to be practically unlimited, as it kept pace with the increase in the demand for tea and coffee; and if the consumption of tea and sugar was an index of the national prosperity, it might also be looked upon as, in some degree, the cause of that prosperity. Public attention had been directed of late to the spread of intemperance in this country, particularly in the northern part of the island; and statesmen of eminence had lectured at public meetings during the recess, and endea. voured to prescribe a remedy. There had been legislation with a view to check the evil, and now he understood the Government were about to grant an inquiry into the results of that legislation, as there were reports that it had proved a failure, as all attempts must fail which attempted to

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