with grand juries altogether, but the fourth
clause provided that when the magistrate
thought there was not sufficient evidence
to warrant the putting the accused person
on his trial, the party bringing the accu-
sation might prefer an indictment at the
Central Criminal Court, or other Court, and
the same proceedings should be had there-
on as was now the law in similar cases;
provided he gave notice in writing to the
magistrate who had heard the case bis
intention to do so within two days, and
also gave notice of the Court to which he
intended to carry the case. There would
be no great inconvenience in such a
course, as the accused would know who
was the prosecutor and who were the
witnesses. Then he proposed that the
grand jury of the Central Criminal Court
should assemble three times a year, and
that the grand juries at quarter sessions
four times a year, when charges of this
nature should be received and determined.
He further proposed, that upon the notice
being given the depositions should be sent
to the Court, hefore which the trial was to
take place, and if any indictment in respect
of such charge be preferred to the grand
jury, the officer of the Court is to deliver
to them these depositions.
These were
the general provisions of a Bill which he
thought would accomplish important ob-
jects. It would get rid altogether of
secret accusations-it would get rid of the
absurdity of a second imperfect investi-
gation of a charge after a complete, full,
and satisfactory examination before the
magistrate-and it would provide for what
some persons thought the accuser ought
to have-namely, the opportunity of going
before a grand jury, and pressing his accu-
sation in cases where the magistrate con-
sidered the evidence insufficient.

report to the Home Office on the criminal law generally, in which he recommended that grand juries should be abolished in the metropolitan districts. In 1849, a Bill was brought in by the Government of the day for the same purpose, and a Select Committee of the House of Commons was appointed to inquire into the subject. Six witnesses were examined men of great practical experience-namely, Mr. Clark, the Clerk of Arraigns at the Central Criminal Court; Mr. Humphreys, an attorney of great experience in criminal cases; Mr. Alderman Wire, the present Lord Mayor; Mr. Mirehouse, the then Common Serjeant; Mr. Puckle, Chairman of the Surrey Sessions; and Mr. Bennoch, a merchant of London; who all gave the strongest possible evidence in favour of the abolitiou of grand juries. The Bill, however, was dropped. In 1852, when he (the Lord Chancellor) was again Attorney General, he brought in a Bill for the same purpose, which failed in consequence of a change of Government. In 1857, with the sanction of the late Government, he introduced a similar measure, but owing to the press of public business he was unable to proceed with it. Under these circumstances he hoped that their Lordships would agree that there was no proposition involved in his measure which had not been maturely considered, and which was not desirable. Provision was made in the Bill for cases where parties were committed and bound over to take their trial; but he had further to provide for the fears of a noble and learned Friend (Lord Wensleydale), who was of opinion that it was the right of every subject to put the criminal law in force according to the established law. He (the Lord Chancellor) did not altogether adopt that doctrine, but it appeared to him to be one of the strongest arguments against the establishment of a Public Prosecutor he had ever heard. He was aware that the Lord Chief Justice considered that when the evi- THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY gave dence before the magistrate was not suffi- their Lordships an illustration of his own cient to justify the committal of the ac- personal experience of the uselessness and cused, the accuser should have the oppor- inconvenience of the system proposed to be tunity of applying to a Judge or some remedied by the noble Lord on the woolother tribunal in order to put the party sack. On one occasion he had his pocket upon his trial, if sufficient evidence could picked, but he gave chase to the lightbe adduced. He had provided for such fingered fugitive, captured him and introcases, and he trusted that he had, induced him to the Rhadamanthus at Marlthe measure as it stood, met all objec. tions, and he might almost say all prejudices. He did not propose to dispense

Bill to make better Provision concerning the Procedure against Persons charged with Indictable Offences within the Metropolitan Districts presented.

borough Street, where the whole case was fully investigated, and the case sent for trial by the magistrate; but notwithstand

ing that, he was compelled to be two days in attendance at Clerkenwell Session-house, waiting the deliberation and decision of the grand jury; and, after all, the operation of finding a true bill did not occupy five minutes. Ilad he not been an idle person, but a man engaged in urgent business, the inconvenience and loss of time would have been exceedingly great. Nothing, moreover, could be worse than the accommodation given, for he and the public had to pace about on the cold stones, and there was not the accommodation of even a single seat.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Thursday, March 10, 1859.

MINUTES.] NEW MEMBER SWORN.-For Sussex (Western Division), Right Hon. the Earl of March.

THE REFORM BILL.-NOTICE. MR. MILES: Sir, I beg to give notice that in Committee on the Representation of the People Bill, I propose To move a clause giving to the electors of cities and LORD CRANWORTH expressed his boroughs now represented the right, as entire concurrence in the measure pro- long as they themselves possess freeholds pounded by the noble and learned Lord on within such cities and boroughs for which the woolsack. He had two days ago rethey have qualified for a county, to retain ceived a letter from a person with whom the right of voting for such county prohe was not acquainted, but who appeared vided their votes have been duly registered to be an intelligent person, suggesting; in the Register of Electors for the year with reference to the Bill of the Lord 1858-9: Upon transfer by sale, or in any Chief Justice, that it might be the proper other manner of such freet olds, or by the occasion to remove what the writer con- decease of such elector, the freehold for sidered an anomaly, involving an unne- which he has voted for the county to merge cessary expenditure of public money, in the city or borough in which such freepresenting indictments in cases of man-hold shall be situate." slaughter and murder after a coroner's inquest had been held. He thought that his correspondent was mistaken on that point, and that there might be a difficulty in laying it down that the inquest by the coroner should be the only preliminary charge on which the accused person should be tried. It often happened that very valuable evidence was given after the coroner had held his inquest.

of

THE LORD CHANCELLOR would turn his attention to the point, but observed there was a clause in the Bill which exempted proceedings upon coroner's inquisitions, when a verdict of murder or manslaughter has been found. The Act also was not to affect ex-officio informations by the Attorney General, or the jurisdiction of the Court of Queen's Bench.

LORD WENSLEYDALE, while admitting that some alteration of the law was desirable, thought the rights of prosecutors to put the criminal law in force should be preserved; but the clause introduced by his noble and learned Friend removed much of the objection he had expressed on a former occasion upon that point. He regarded the grand jury as a constitutional and a useful institution, and should be sorry to see it abolished in all cases.

Bill read 1a.

House adjourned at a quarter before
Seven o'clock, till To-morrow,
half-past Ten o'clock.

LORD JOIN RUSSELL: I beg Sir, to give notice that on the Motion for the Second Reading of the Representation of the People Bill I shall move as a Resolu

tion

"That this House is of opinion that it is neither just nor politic to interfere in the manner proposed in this Bill with the Freehold Franchise as hitherto exercised in the Counties in England and Wales; and that no readjustment of the Franchise will satisfy this House or the country which does not provide for a greater extension of the suffrage in cities and boroughs than is contemplated in the present measure.'

BOROUGH ELECTORS.-QUESTION.

MR. FOLJAMBE said, as it appears, by Parliamentary Paper No. 108 of last Session, that the Registered Electors of the borough of East Retford entitled to vote for the northern division of the county of Nottingham, are only eighty-six in number, whereas it appears by the County Register of Voters that the number amounts to 1,466, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer to give an explanation of this difference; whether the proposal to disfranchise the freeholders of boroughs in respect of their county votes extended to the cases in which hundreds are included within the limits of Parliamentary boroughs?

and

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCIEQUER: Sir, I have referred to the Par

EXCHEQUER BILLS.-RESOLUTION. MR. HANKEY said, he rose to call the attention of the House to the late funding of Exchequer Bills, preparatory to moving, "That in future no funding of Exchequer Bills, held by the Commissioners of Savings' Banks, be made without the special authority of an Act of

Parliament."

which they could be repaid, and afterwards the funded debt of the country would stand precisely in the same way as before the transaction. But mark the difference that took place, if, instead of purchasing stock in the open market, the deposits of the savings' banks were invested in Exchequer bills; those bills, after a certain lapse of time, were converted into stock, and by The words of that Motion were precisely being funded these Exchequer bills were identical with one of the Resolutions of cancelled, but the stock remained as a the late Committee which sat last year, permanent charge. He was quite aware presided over by the right hon. Gen- that the indebtedness of the country, as tleman the Secretary of State for the regards capital, was not altered by the Home Department. He brought forward operation; the country was still indebted the Motion with no object of making an for the amount of the savings' banks attack on the Chancellor of the Exchequer. deposits; but it did appear to make a He might be told that it was in conse- great difference if the repayments when quence of the Act of the late Government, required had to be made by the sale of who possessed themselves of a certain stock, instead of by the sale of Excheamount of Exchequer bills, that this mea- quer bills, as in that case the funded debt sure of funding became almost a matter of remained the same. Now, the amount of necessity. The operation which had taken Exchequer Bills of which he had spoken place was this. There had been a new was obtained in this way. It was perfectly creation of funded debt to the amount of competent for the Commissioners of savings' £8,456,239, involving a permanent charge banks to invest in any Government seof £254,000 a year, in lieu of cancel-curity. If they invested in stock he had led Exchequer bills to the amount of stated what was the effect; if in Exche£7,600,000, involving an annual charge quer bills-to those bills if held merely of £160,000. He was not going to lay any stress on this difference between the charge on the Exchequer bills as compared with the charge on the 3 per cent Stock, because he was aware that the real charge on the Exchequer was the amount which the Government was bound to pay to the depositors of the savings' banks, and, therefore, it might be said it was a matter of but little difference whether the interest was more or less; but he did think that it was a matter of very great importance that this House should well consider any question which involved an increase of the funded debt on the country. The ordinary mode of dealing with savings' banks deposits was this it was presumed that the deposits were invested as soon as possible in Government securities. That was necessary in order to prevent the waste of any money lying idle in the bank of England in the names of the Commissioners of savings' banks; but when the deposits were invested in that manner there was not necessarily any increase in the total amount of the funded debt. Supposing that these deposits were to be required again by the depositors, then if the stock had been bought in the open market, the stock could be sold again in the same way, and thus a fund would be provided out of

as a temporary investment he had no objection-but if, acting on the power granted by the Acts under which all the savings' banks were now constituted, the Government turned those Exchequer bills into stock, that clearly involved a permanent increase of the national debt. And it appeared to be most desirable that the House should watch with jealousy any increase of the funded debt of this country. Well, some of these bills had been bought in the open market; but a considerable portion of those so bought were bought with funds obtained by the sale of stock. It was during the time of the late Chancellor of the Exchequerhe believed in 1853 or 1854, during the late war-that the right hon. Gentleman found himself under what he probably considered to be a necessity to provide some fund which was not readily at his command in the ordinary course of the money market; and perhaps, indeed, the expenditure of the war was So enormous as to baffle every calculation. He took the power of obtaining money from this House. But there might have been difficulties in getting the money in the way he thought most advantageous to the country. He therefore took advantage of the provisions of the Act, and he sold about

£4,000,000 of stock, and he bought Ex- of the debt, but made in a manner that chequer bills. The effect of that operation appeared quite unnecessary. Including was that he took a certain amount of Ex- that £8,000,000, he believed that about chequer bills out of the market, thereby £16,000,000 had been added within the tending to enhance the price of Exchequer last twenty years to the funded debt by bills, which were at a discount at the mo- such arrangements. He was not about ment; and he was then enabled, by having to discuss at any length the provisions a smaller amount of bills in the market, to of that Act, though he believed there was replace those bills which he took out. He a very strong feeling in the House that was enabled in some way or other to sell it would not be wise to continue them. that amount of Exchequer bills. These He was not afraid at this moment of bills, therefore, came into possession of the any abuse of that power by the Chanlate Chancellor of the Exchequer, as Com- cellor of the Exchequer; but he thought missioner of Savings' Banks, purely by the it a most unwise provision. It was a sale of stock. It appeared to him (Mr. thing that Parliament ought to guard Hankey) that it would have been wise, if against under almost any possible circumpossible, to have avoided the necessity of stances-an increase of the funded debt. funding those bills, and thereby of increas- That £16,000,000 involved an expendiing the amount of the funded debt. He ture of upwards of £400,000 a year; thought it would have been quite possible. and if even the whole of the Savings' There was no difficulty at the time of Bank money were paid off by the sale of selling Exchequer bills. He did not mean stock, the country would be left in this to say that it would have been possible or predicament, that it would be saddled with prudent to have thrown any large amount an extension of the funded debt to the of Exchequer bills into the market; but if extent of £16,000,000. He did not think those Exchequer bills had been disposed of that that was intended by the provisions by degrees the stock might again have been of the Savings' Bank Act; but that bought, and the result of that transaction the Commissioners of Savings' Banks would have been no permanent increase of were to place themselves in the position the National Debt. The transaction was of the depositors themselves - be their in effect nothing more nor less than a pure representatives, in short and as soon war loan. It was owing, probably, to that as possible invest the money in stock, arrangement of the late Chancellor of the and keep that stock in their names, Exchequer that the present Chancellor of the same as a banker would do to enable the Exchequer thought it expedient to carry out what he thought his predecessor would have done had he remained in office. He (Mr. Hankey) was quite aware that this was in strict conformity with the Act of Parliament. The Act of Parliament, for what purpose he could not divine, seemed to have given large powers to the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to funding Exchequer bills. It would be strictly in conformity with the provisions of the Act if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were to-morrow to find himself in this position, that in consequence of some sudden demand for money which raised its value, and placed Exchequer bills in the market at a discount, it would be within the provisions of that Act for him to sell the whole of that £8,000,000 of the funded debt, and buy Exchequer bills, and therefore relieve the Exchequer bill market to that extent. The same operation might go on again, but limited of course by the amount of Exchequer bills to be bought in the market. It might go on for some time, and the result would be an increase

him to meet the requirements of his customers. The Committee of last Session recommended in their Report that the funded debt of the country should not be increased by means of the money in the Savings' Banks. Ilis right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Gladstone) had laid it down as a principle that it was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer always to take care that as much money as he could require was raised from the taxation of the year, and he hoped his right hon. Friend would support him in maintaining to the utmost the power of this House, and that the House would not consent to sanction, unless on occasions of great emergency, an increase of the funded debt. In bringing this subject under the notice of the House he was actuated by no party feelings whatever. His chief desire was to elicit the opinions of the House on the principles upon which the operations of savings' banks ought to be conducted; and if the House would agree with him in the Resolution he proposed, he believed the result would be to put an