1345 Ecclesiastical Courts and MARCH 7, 1859 LORD REDESDALE said, that there was no doubt that the regulations of the Act had been very much neglected. The Act had been almost inoperative. It arose from the objections of people in the country to the mode in which the regulations were carried out, as he could state from his own experience. If the child of a neighbour was vaccinated, and the lymph was obtained from it, there was no ob jection to it; but they did not like lymph that had been brought by the medical man from some strange child, of which they knew nothing, to be used for their children. The disease was one that was very liable to spread, and adults were even more liable to it than children, and therefore they were very much afraid of having strange lymph introduced. EARL GRANVILLE said, that it was a pity that the powers given by the Act to the Privy Council were not carried out, and that the penalties remained in abeyance. If necessary, he thought that they ought to have come to the Parliament for more Powers. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS AND REGIS TRIES (IRELAND) BILL. COMMITTEE. REPORT. House in Committee (according to Order). Bill reported without Amendment. On Question that the Report be received, THE BISHOP OF DOWN moved an Amendment to Clause 4, the object of which, was, he said, to correct a serious evil which interfered most materially with the working of the ecclesiastical system in Ireland. Two large districts, one in his diocese of Down and Connor and the other in the archdiocese of Armagh, were exempt from ecclesiastical jurisdiction, and the object of his Amendment was to abolish that exemption. Over those dictricts neither the Bishop in the one case nor the Archbishop in the other could exercise any ecclesiastical authority. They could not VOL. CLII. [THIRD SERIES.] Registries (Ireland) Bill. 1346 even hold a confirmation withint he precincts of the exempt jurisdictions without the concurrence of the incumbent, nor could they require the incumbent to bring the children of his parishioners to a neighbouring parish to be coufirmed. They had no authority over the incumbent; such as the canons of the Church gave them in every other case, with respect to purity of morals or orthodoxy of faith. He put it to their Lordships to say whether this was a time when a system so injurious as that to the due working of the Church should be maintained in Ireland. It was said that to disturb this arrangement would be to interfere with vested rights, but he held that there were no inherent rights which authorized an incumbent to exercise his ministry irrespective of episcopal control, and superior to ecclesiastical jurisdiction, such was totally at variance with the constitution of the Church and the canon law of the land. He contended that the exempt jurisdictions in question were analogous to the case of "peculiars" in England. On the recommendation of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, the jurisdiction of the "peculiars," both contentious and voluntary, had been abolished; and that being so, he conceived he had a right to ask their Lordships to assent to an Amendment of the Bill under consideration, which would effect a similar purpose with respect to the exempt jurisdictions to which he had referred. His Grace the Archbishop of Dublin, whom he had felt it his duty to consult on this subject, whose authority would have weight with their Lordships from his high position and character, had been pleased to communicate his opinion to him in writing to the effect that he had always considered exempt jurisdictions as an unmixed evil, and one which he thought it would be as easy as it was desirable to abolish. The right rev. Prelate concluded by moving the insertion of words in Clause 4 to effect the object he had indicated--namely, the abolition of exempt jurisdictions which, he said, were nothing but the usurpations of a dark age. THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE opposed the Amendment on the ground that the Bill was one affecting procedure, and interfered with no rights, and therefore it could not deal with the question of exempt jurisdictions. The Amendment would incumber the Bill with another question altogether. The Bill was now in its third stage, and it was not competent to any one 2 X that the Chester and Holyhead Railway could not complete their part of it till their to introduce a few words in addition to a clause which would have the effect of doing away with certain ecclesiastical jurisdic-own arrangements had been concluded with tions. The proper course was for the right rev. Prelate to introduce a Bill to abolish exempt jurisdictions, and he was not prepared to say that he should oppose it. As it was, he hoped, the House would support him in keeping this Bill as it stood. THE BISHOP OF DOWN said, that the Bill did interfere with certain vested rights, whereas his Amendment only gave the Bishop his legitimate jurisdiction. How ever, he would not give their Lordships the trouble to divide. LORD REDESDALE said, he had as strong an objection as the right rev. Prelate to exempt jurisdictions, but he objected to the Amendment, which did not refer to the Report. Amendment negatived. the London and North Western Company. There was no objection to lay the contract on the table. With regard to the details alluded to by the noble Marquess, he had to say, that two special trains would start each way every day except Sunday. One would start from Euston Square at 8.30 in the evening, reaching its destination in a maximum of eleven hours; and another at half-past seven in the morning. Owing to the great speed of these trains it might be necessary to moderate the number of carriages they contained, in order to preserve a proper weight. As to better accommodation for landing and embarking at Kingstown, he had made inquiry on the subject. That matter did not rest with the Post Office, but with the Board of Works in Dublin, as far as Ireland was concerned ; The Report thereof to be received on and he was informed that arrangements Friday next. would be made, and the landing place completed, in about three months. At MAIL COMMUNICATION WITH IRELAND. Holyhead the matter rested with the Ad QUESTION. THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE begged to ask the Postmaster General Whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the Contract lately made by the Government with Railway and Steam Packet Companies for the Acceleration of the Irish Mails; and whether any Steps have been taken to obtain better Accommodation for landing and embarking pas sengers at Kingstown and at Holyhead? He said that his notice was given, and he asked the question on the assumption that the contract to which he referred had been signed. If so, it was desirable that it should be known what the details were. It had been stated that the carriages attached to the express mail trains were too limited for the accommodation required, and it was a point to which attention should be directed. There was another matter with regard to which he hoped something would be done, and that was with respect to affording better accommodation for landing and embarking passengers, especially at Kingstown. There was a great want of accommodation there which could be easily remedied at a small expense and in a short time. LORD COLCHESTER said, that he had to state that the contract which had been so long pending was signed and sealed on the 3rd of January. It would have been completed sooner but for the circumstance miralty, and he was informed that the necessary arrangements would be completed in the present year. House adjourned at a quarter-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Monday, March 7, 1859. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1° Mutiny; Marine Mutiny; Affidavits by Commission, &c. 2o East India Loan; Remission of Penalties. 3° Manor Courts, &c. (Ireland). EXCISABLE LIQUORS (SCOTLAND). ANSWER TO ADDRESS. LORD CLAUD HAMILTON appeared at the Bar with Her Majesty's Answer to the Address for the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the Laws regulating the Sale of Excisable Liquors in Scotland. I have received your Address praying that a Royal Commission may be appointed to Inquire into the Laws regulating the Sale and Consumption of Excisable Liquors in Scotland: And I have given directions that a Royal Commission shall issue for the purpose which you have requested. CONSERVATORY AT KEW. QUESTION. MR. DILLWYN said, he considered that the public appreciation of the Royal Gardens at Kew was fully shown by the fact that 400.000 persons visited the Gardens during the past year. He would ask the First Commissioner of Works whether it is his intention in the next Estimates to make provision for the erection of a new Conservatory at the Royal Gardens at Kew. LORD JOHN MANNERS said, the subject was at the present time under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government; but until they were in possession of the architect's design he could not say whether the cost of the construction of the Conservatory would be an item in the Estimates of the current year. KINGSTOWN HARBOUR. QUESTION. MR. VANCE said, he rose to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if it be the intention of the Government to introduce any general or special measure this Session which will relieve the Foreign trade of Dublin from the imposts now levied on it exclusively for the Harbour of Refuge at Kingstown. LORD STANLEY said, that on inquiry he found that the Despatch alluded to by the hon. and gallant Member had not reached this country. It appeared to have been lost on its way from head quarters at Bombay. As he had not seen it, he of course could say nothing as to its contents. He had written to India for a duplicate of it, if possible. With reference to the latter part of the Question he had to state that it was not intended to give a separate clasp for the battle of Calpee. OFFICERS IN THE MEDITERRANEAN. QUESTION. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER replied, that it was not the intention of the Government to introduce any measure on the subject, nor could the Government admit that the imposts were MAJOR STUART KNOX said, he wished levied exclusively for the Harbour at to ask the Secretary of State for War the Kingstown. There was nothing in the case different from the circumstances dis-terranean are not entitled to the same acreason why Officers serving in the Medicussed last year; but there were cases brought under the consideration of the Board of Trade and the Irish Board of Works which showed the existence of anomalies in the present arrangements connected with Dublin Harbour which might require revision. The subject was now under the consideration of Government. BEER-HOUSES AND PLACES OF PUBLIC RESORT.-QUESTION. MR. NICOLL said, he wished to ask the Under Secretary for the Home Department if it is the intention of Government before Easter to bring in a Bill to amend the Law in respect to Beer-Houses and places of public entertainment. MR. HARDY replied that it was the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill on the subject. commodation (in the way of Quarters or allowance for the same) as Officers in the United Kingdom, and whether it is his intention to remedy this? serving in the Mediterranean were entitled GENERAL PEEL replied that the Officers to receive, and did receive, the same accommodation in Barracks as Officers in the be accommodated in Barracks, they reUnited Kingdom, but when they could not rate was fixed by the Treasury in 1851, on ceived a pecuniary allowance instead. The the representation of a Board of Officers. HIGHWAYS BILL-QUESTION. MR. T. DUNCOMBE said, he wished to know if the Government had any objection to go into Committee on the Highways Bill, pro forma, for the purpose of reprint ing it with the Amendments of which notice had been given. The MR. WALPOLE replied, that it was his intention to move the second reading of the MR. HARDY said, he thought that Bill on Wednesday. The hon. Member for would be a very inconvenient course. Tavistock had given notice of a Motion for better plan would be to go through the un-its rejection. The discussion would take opposed clauses, and postpone the new ones. place in the regular way. Although the Amendments looked formidable on paper, they were not in reality of great importance. In reply to a question by SIR George GREY, THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said the Government would not go into the Highways Bill after ten o'clock. CHURCH RATES BILL-QUESTION. MR. VERNON SMITH wished to know whether the Government intended to proceed on Wednesday with the Bill on Church Rates introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge. The second reading had been fixed for Wednesday, but as that would be Ash Wednesday, he presumed the House would not meet till two o'clock. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said his right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge had undertaken to proceed with the Bill which he had introduced on Church Rates as a Govenment Bill, as he had taken a particular interest in it; but if the House did not wish it to be proceeded with on Wednesday he could not make any arrangements as to its postponement until he had consulted with the hon. Baronet the Member for Tavistock, (Sir J. Trelawny,) whose Bill on the same subject stood next in the paper. MR. BRIGHT said, he would ask when it was the intention of the Government to proceed with the Church Rates Bill; those who were interested in the measure had a right to know, and he wished to ask whether the right hou. Gentleman had made up his mind? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHIE QUER said, he had made up his mind long ago. It was an act of courtesy by no means uncommon that whenever any Member had retired from the Government he was at liberty to continue to conduct a Bill, if he desired to do so. The measure was a Government measure and they were prepared to proceed with it. MR. HÜTT said, he thought it would be very convenient if the right hon Gentleman opposite would state what course he intended to pursue on Wednesday with respect to the Bill. EAST INDIA LOAN BILL. Order for Second Reading read. But SIR GEORGE LEWIS said: Sir, before this Bill is read a second time I think it important that the House should pause and consider the principles on which it is based. I am not one of those who are inclined to place a high value on our Indian Empire. I am not one of those, as I formerly stated to the House, who are inclined to ascribe too great an advantage, either as regards national strength or national wealth, to our territorial possessions on the Continent of Asia. It has been said that the existence of our trade with India is in itself a conclusive proof of the benefit we derive from that empire. But our trade with China is of more importance than our trade with India, and it would be quite possible to carry on a considerable commerce with India, even supposing our territorial possessions there were not so extensive as they actually are. though I think it is important to a correct understanding of our interests in that quarter of the world that we should not exaggerate the advantages we derive from our Indian empire, nor over estimate the amount either of material strength or material wealth we obtain from those possessions, nevertheless I fully admit it is not a practical question as far as this country is concerned, whether we shall or shall not carry on the government of India. Whether, as popularly supposed even in this country, and more generally believed by foreigners, we derive vast advantages and great wealth from our Indian Empire, or whether it is true that India is essentially a poor country, that its inhabitants have little aptitude for trade and industry, that they are bowed down by a grovelling superstition, which checks every capacity for improvement; whichever of these views may be true, nevertheless we have destroyed the Native Governments of India, and assumed the authority ourselves. We have thereby contracted obligations towards the Natives which we are bound to fulfil. Whether we are likely to derive great | Treasury from the Imperial Exchequer. benefits from our Indian possessions, or That separation existed before the Bill whether those benefits are limited within of last year was passed; and it appears a small circle, it is, nevertheless, a para- to me, if the question is rightly undermount obligation on this country to carry stood, that Parliament, representing the on the government of India, wherever we Imperial interests, has acquired no new have superseded the Native authorities. powers, and contracted no new obligations We must look upon ourselves as having in consequence of the passing of that undertaken obligations that are binding Bill. Now, the great difficulty in which upon us, and, for the sake of our subjects the finances of India now find themselves in that quarter of the world, we are bound arises from the enormous amount of the to discharge those obligations to the best military expenditure. The noble Lord the of our ability. I think we last year made Secretary for India in his lucid statement a step in the right direction when we the other night, brought before the House altered the form of the home Government the various items of the present charge. of India, and abolished the last remnant He seemed to think that there might be of the worn-out constitution of the East some prospect of affecting a diminution in India Company, substituting for it a Coun- the civil expenditure of India. Now, it is cil with a Secretary of State at its head. the character of the civil expenditure of Though I think that change was in every India, as of all our colonial Governments, respect wholesome, and though the manner that it is in fact extremely moderate. in which the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) No doubt the scale of salaries in India has brought the affairs of India before the is on the whole high; and that for reaHouse confirms the views taken last Ses- sons which were clearly explained by the sion of the expediency of that change, noble Lord, and must be generally known still I wish to caution the House against to the House. The climate renders believing that the change implies any it necessary that Europeans should receive alteration with respect to the finances of larger emoluments than they would receive India, or that it saddles the Imperial Ex- either at home or in a healthier colony. chequer with any liability that did not But, after making due allowance for all previously exist. What is the effect of the this, any hon. Gentleman who will examine change made last Session? Before the the Indian expenditure will find that the Act of last Session passed, the supremacy real expense of the civil government of of Parliament over the territory and Go- India, if you deduct the cost of public vernment of India was quite as great as works, and all the extraordinary charges of it has been since. In no one respect has a civil nature, is extremely moderate in the control of Parliament over India been amount. And as we improve the character enlarged by that legislation. The only of the government, as we recede from a difference which has been created is in state of barbarism, and approach more to the power of the Crown over the sub- a state of civilization, the natural tendency ordinate Government of India. The rule of things is to diminish the proportionate in respect to our Colonies is, that subject cost of the military expenditure and to into the supreme control of Parliament, the crease the proportionate cost of the civil Crown superintends the subordinate Go- expenditure. Therefore, if we really wish vernment of a colony; but in India a dif- to render ourselves the true benefactors of ferent system had been established, and India-if we wish to give to its people a instead of the Crown being the immediate form of government better than that which head of the subordinate Government the they would have had under their Native power of the Crown had been delegated princes, we must look to an increase rather to a Company; that delegated power than to a diminution of the civil expendihas been withdrawn; but the power of ture. At all events we must not look for Parliament has been, in no respect, en- economy in the retrenchment of the civil larged or increased. Nor has the change charges. It may, indeed, be a matter of made any alteration in the national lia- necessity, but still only a painful and disbility, or given the finances of India any advantageous necessity, that we should connection with the Imperial Exchequer. submit to a reduction in this branch of exIt is important, in the case of India, as penditure. The financial state of India, it in that of Canada, and our other Colonies, seems to me, is to be improved only through to maintain with the utmost strictness and a diminution of the military expenditure. rigour, the entire separation of the Indian To give the Ilouse some idea of that ex |