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a flourishing condition. It is a common on works of irrigation. Considerable diffi. mistake to suppose that there has been culties were anticipated—and I do not say little or no expenditure of this description that some of those difficulties may not in India. For a considerable number of yet arisemas to the negotiations which years there has been an average out- may have to take place between the comlay of £2,000,000 on public works. Ipany and the cultivators who are to purdo not, of course, claim credit for the chase the water which it supplies. But, whole of those works as being of a re- whatever those difficulties might be, I felt productive character. It is difficult to that the experiment was one which ought state exactly to what extent they are to be tried, and a guarantee of a million sterreproductive, but probably I should be ling, therefore, was given for that purpose within the mark if I assumed that of the There is no portion of the business of the In£2,000,000 a year so expended previous dian Administration to which I and the Memto the outbreak of the mutiny, one half at bers of the present Government attach so least might be regarded as a profitable much importance as to that of pressing on investment. During the, two years of earnestly and expeditiously undertakings the mutiny there has necessarily been a of this nature. Guarantees to the exdecrease in this item of expenditure ; but tent of something like £37,000,000 have that decrease has not gone so far as might been given to railroads and to other combe supposed, the outlay having amounted panies of that deseription, and we have to £3,000,000, or three-fourths of the felt that in the present state of the moneyaverage of the preceding ten years. We market it was not expedient indefinitely to are at present, perhaps, in a more un- increase the number of those guarantees ; favourable position in one respect - I partly because their value would be thereby do not mean in reference to finance-than depreciated, and partly because between at any former time; because we are the time when the interest upon undertaknow incurring all the expenditure which ings of that kind becomes payable, and belongs to a large systeni of works un- the time at which they bring back any dertaken without receiving any portion return a considerable interval must elapse. of that profit which can only begin to ar- We have thought it, therefore, more desirrive when the works shall be completed. I able to press forward with the utmost speed came down to.night not prepared to go the works that are already actually in prointo this subject, and I speak therefore gress than by giving the fresh guarantees from general recollection ; but I think I to begin on new works to any great extent. may say, in round numbers, that the Mr. BRIGHT: Sir, I have listened to the length of railroad sanctioned in India is observations of the noble Lord with very 5,000 miles, and that the amount actually great pleasure. I think that he has given under construction is about 3,000 miles, a very fair answer to the question of my while the quantity finished and opened does hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield (Mr. not exceed 550 miles. We have, there. Hadfield). But there is one point, which fore, a heavy outlay to bear with a com- has not been referred to, which I think paratively small return. But I am confident bears very importantly upon the question that when the main lines of communica- raised. I fully admit the necessity that tion shall be completed, the traffic will there is for establishing roads, or railroads, increase to such a degree in the districts or some means of communication in vari. through which they pass

very ous parts of India ; but I can conceive it foon make them amply remunerative. I quite possible that the roads should be as shall be prepared to enter more at length good in India as in any part of England, into this subject ten days hence. In the and yet that there should be very little meantime, perhaps, I may state that we improvement in the cultivation of the soil have at this moment in contemplation a or in the production of the land. We have plan which will greatly increase the amount had a case of this description near home. of skilled engineering labour at the dis- In no part of the United Kingdom are the posal of the Government. Another class roads better than in Ireland ; at the same of public works on which some labour has time, we know that from causes of a difbeen bestowed is that of irrigation. In the ferent character the agriculture of Ireland course of last autumn the Indian Govern. was about as bad as possible. We may ment, for the first time, took the step of have, therefore, in India any number of giving a guarantee to a prirate company roads that English capitalists may like to as in the case of railways, for carrying make, under the guarantee of the Govern

as will

ment, and still we may have very poor cul- | appointing him to that office-if he goes tivation and very little production from to Madras, and is to carry out a system so the soil. I believe, therefore, that unless severe, so relentless, so utterly unjust as something be done-in Southern India es- has been adopted in the Presidency of pecially, in the province of Madras-to Bombay, then, I say, whatever troubles improve the tenure of the land, and to give may happen in Madras, and however serigreater security both to the cultivators and ous they may be, the noble Lord and those to the owners of the soil, little good will who are associated with him will be reresult from guarantees to railway com- sponsible for them. It cannot be of the panies. I have been very sorry to observe, slightest consequence to the Government from private letters and from public news- whether half a score or half a hundred papers, that the Government of Madras men hold land upon titles which, of whathave been following the example of the ever nature, have not been questioned Government of Bombay, in a manner which for half a century; but it is very important I conceive to be little short of official insa- that that expression in the Proclamation nity. The Government of Madras have which appeared to guarantee to the people issued a commission, called an Enam Com- of India their rights of property should not mission, for the purpose of ascertaining the be merely a statement upon paper, but validity of the titles to land in that pro should be felt to be a truth by all the vince; but I think that anybody who has Natives of India. The noble Lord, I am been concerned with Indian affairs during sure, will know that I am not making these the last two years, must have observed how observations for the purpose of detracting complete was the unanimity of opinion with from his merits as the Governor of India respect to the absolute folly and injustice in this country. I beg that he will use his of a similar commission in Bombay. It own strong sense and just feeling towards might be said—indeed, it has been said the people of India, and that he will not that this commission in Madras is not ex- allow the officialism of that country, the actly the same as that in Bombay. Unfor-red-tapism, the old Indianism--so to speak tunately, it has the same name, and with —to overrule him in a matter of this nathe same name, it will do the same work, ture. If he does, I believe that he will have and I fear that it will produce the same re. next year, or the year after, to repent that sults. If I understand it aright, it is he did not act with regard to India upon intended to examine into the title deeds and the only principle which could be applied rights of possession of proprietors of land, to the land in this country. I think that whose rights have not been disputed for the fair thing would have been to appoint a half a century; and the mode in which the Commission, not to inquire into the titles to inquiry will be carried on-judging from these estates, but generally into the whole what took place in Bombay—is such, that tenure of land in India, as was done with if it were attempted in regard to the pro- respect to the practice of torture some perty of the landed gentry in England, it time ago. If a Commission were appointed would change this country in a week from to inquire into the whole question of the a condition of tranquillity to one of absolute tenure of land, especially in the province revolt. I am speaking from a statement of Madras, with its population of more which has been made to me by a gentleman than 20,000,000, and in which the land, of very high character, and of great infor- owing to the mode in which it is held, has mation in India, and I believe that I express no saleable value, and to gain all the inforthe sentiments of most gentlemen in this mation upon that subject which was to be country who are acquainted with the state of had, I think it very probable that the noble affairs in India. The noble Lord, in his Lord might be able to introduce some new Governor of Madras, has made an ap- legislation which would give to the land, pointment which I think is calculated to gain and the industry of the people, and the the confidence of the House, and of the climate of India, a fair chance of profriends of India, for I am disposed to think ducing all that they could produce, and to that the gentleman who is going out there the manufacturers of this country all the is as well qualified, probably, as anybody benefits that could result from their conwho could have been chosen for the high nection with a country capable of prooffice which he is about to fill. At the ducing so abundantly as we know that same time, I do not care what is the cha- India can produce. I do not ask for an racter of the man, or how just and pure answer now. I merely throw out these may be the motives of the noble Lord in observations as suggestions, and ten days

Because many

hence, I hope, we shall bear from the noble £23,000,000 worth of her produce annually, Lord that a Commission will be appointed she only took in return some £12,000,000 to inquire into this subject of the tenure or £13,000,000 of the manufactures of this of land, which I do not hesitate to say is country. Why was this? the first and foremost question to which of the products of this country-woollens, the noble Lord should direct his attention. hardware, stationery, glass, &c., were not

LORD STANLEY: I am glad to hear required in India, and the consequence was, those expressions of gratification which that the balance of trade with India since have fallen from the hon. Member with 1800 had been paid in bullion, and rerespect to the appointment of Sir C. Tre- mained in the country. With regard to velyan to the Governorship of Madras. public works, the noble Lord had even unAt the time that appointment was deter- derrated the amount expended upon them mined on I wrote to Lord Harris to re- in the five years preceding the mutiny. quest that he would suspend all operations At this moment three magnificent works with regard to the Enam Commission until of the highest importance were in prothe arrival of his successor at Madras. gress of construction one, the screw. The object of the Commission is not to pile pier at Madras, where for a hundred disturb the old tenures, but, on the con- years past passengers and merchandise had trary, to confirm them, and to give a Par. been landed through the dangers of the liamentary title to a great mass of property surf, but which dangers were now about the validity of the title to which is disputed to be removed by the erection of a screw

COLONEL SYKES said, that probably the pile pier — another, the water works in best course would be to defer any dis- Bombay, which would be completed this cussion on these subjects until the noble year, the water being conveyed from Lord made his statement ten days hence ; Salsette--and the last, the improvement of but in reference to the observation of the the harbour of Kurrachee in Scind, at a hon. Member for Birmingham that he hoped great outlay, which improvement, when the noble Lord would not permit old Indians finished, would make the harbour accessito overrule him, he had to remark that ble to ships of large burden, to the great adit did not follow because a man was an vantage of the important trade with Central “old Indian” that he was necessarily either Asia. As to the road communication that an advocate or an admirer of .. Enam Ten- really was not a question of so much imure Commissions." There was not one portance as the bon. Gentleman (Mr.

a hundred in this country who really Bright) supposed. For many months of the understood the question of tenure of land year, during the dry season, all India was in India. With respect to Enam Com a road. The country was not divided or missions great misconceptions prevailed. separated by fences as in England, and the The rights to be inquired into were not whole country might be traversed in any the rights to the land, but the right of direction. Let us hope that with a prosEnamders to the Government tax which pect of the people of India having their issued out of it. There were a hundred confidence restored in the Government, different tenures of land in India, and if a there will soon be a return to that state Committee were to sit in that House and of prosperity to which the country had go into every tenure it would not finish its advanced before the late disturbances. labours for years. On the question of the Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said, he could production of cotton, he wished to know corroborate the statement of his hon. were they to compel the freemen of India Friend (Colonel Sykes), as to the growth of

- for they were still free — to cultivate cotton in India. He had been in the princotton merely because it was wanted here ? cipal cotton-growing districts, and Cotton could be produced to an unlimited assured they were capable of growing an extent in India, and if the manufacturers of unlimited supply. The great difficulty at England wanted it, let them make it worth present arose from the considerable damage the while of the Natives to grow it in which was done to the cotton from the preference to sugar or indigo, or oil seeds; manner in which it was brought down to let them send their agents into the country the coast from the interior. It was carried as he had frequently told them during the on the backs of bullocks. One load was last twenty years, and contract with the dragged a certain distance and toppled over, farmers, and cotton would be cultivated to after that another load was brought down any extent.

The House, perhaps, was and so on, so that by the time it reached the not aware that while India exported some coast, it was often in a state of the greatest

was BILL PRE

SENTED.

impurity. No company had ever been / warrant, has directed the discontinuance of formed for purchasing cotton in the interior, those special services which were appointed screwing it up, and sending it down to the for the particular days I have mentioned, coast. He thought if the gentlemen who it is right that the Acts of Parliament to wanted the article were to send their agents which I have adverted should be repealed ; into the country to do this, they might pur- and I, therefore, now beg leave to move chase cotton in any quantity, and of a that you, Sir, be directed to ask that leave superior quality. In conclusion, he might should be given to bring in a Bill to repeal state that he had grown cotton in India certain Acts, or parts of Acts, which relate himself, and he knew it could be grown to the observance of the 30th of January with a profit.

and other days. Mr. J. EWART remarked that there Resolved, that the Chairman be di. was a necessity of greater irrigation in rected to move the House, That leave be India before the supply of cotton could be given to bring in a Bill to repeal certain expected to be much increased.

Acts and parts of Acts which relate to the Address agreed to: to be presented by observance of the thirtieth of January and Privy Councillors.

other days.

Resolution reported and agreed to : Bill THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.

ordered to be brought in by Mr. Fitz Roy, HER MAJESTY's Speech to be taken into Mr. SECRETARY WALPOLE, and Mr. HARDY. consideration on Monday next.

Afterwards, Bill presented and read 1°.

House adjourned at Six o'clock OCCASIONAL FORMS OF PRAYER.

till Monday next. ACTS CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE.

READ 1° On the Motion of Mr. WALPOLE, Acts read, and ordered to be considered in Com

HOUSE OF LORDS, mittee.

Monday, February 7, 1859. (In the Committee).

MR. WALPOLE: Sir, the Committee Minutes.] Public Bills.—1• Debtor and Crediwill recollect that during the last Session of

2* Law of Property and Trustees Relief AmendParliament two Addresses were moved one by the other House of Parliament, and the other by this llouse --- to Her Majesty,

BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY. praying for the discontinuance of certain DEBTOR AND CREDITOR BILL. fornis of prayer on the 30th of January,

FIRST READING. the 29th of May, and the 5th of November. THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, that In pursuance of those Addresses, Her Ma- in rising to call the attention of their Lordjesty, by warrant, has now directed the ships to the subject of the Law of Debtor discontinuance of those forms of prayer ; and Creditor, he feared he should be but on the issuing of that warrant it was obliged to trespass upon their attention for necessary for the Government to consider a greater length than he could have wished. whether there were not certain Acts still in the subject he need scarcely remind the force which would forbid the exercise of House was one of great importance to all, that warrant, by reason of those Acts re- for the community might fairly be divided quiring the observance of those particular into two classes, debtors and creditors, and days. I find that there are certain Acts of therefore it was vecessary that the law Parliament I think six, seven, or eight in relating to it should be made as perfect as number-in which no provisions are made possible. Their Lordships might rememfor any particular service or form of prayer, ber that at the close of the last Session he but in which directions are given to mi. had laid upon the Table a Bill which at the nisters to observe those days, and to the time he said must not be regarded as empeople to attend church. In some instances bodying the ultimate views of the Governit is enacted that these days shall be kept ment, but rather as the redemption of a as holidays, and that all persons shall ab- pledge that some measure should be prostain from labour and trade ; in others, duced during that Session. That Bill had notice is required to be given on the pre- been prepared by his hon. and learned ceding Sunday that these days are to be Friend the Attorney General, and it was kept as holidays. I think the Committee more wonderful, notwithetanding his known will agree with me that as IIer Majesty, by industry and ability, that his hon. and

tor.

ment.

hence, I hope, we shall hear from the noble £23,000,000 worth of her produce annually, Lord that a Commission will be appointed she only took in return some £12,000,000 to inquire into this subject of the tenure or £13,000,000 of the manufactures of this of land, which I do not hesitate to say is country. Why was this? Because many the first and foremost question to which of the products of this country-woollens, the noble Lord should direct his attention. hardware, stationery, glass, &c., were not

LORD STANLEY: I am glad to hear required in India, and the consequence was, those expressions of gratification which that the balance of trade with India since have fallen from the hon. Member with 1800 had been paid in bullion, and rerespect to the appointment of Sir C. Tre- mained in the country. With regard to velyan to the Governorship of Madras. public works, the noble Lord had even unAt the time that appointment was deter- derrated the amount expended upon them mined on I wrote to Lord Harris to re- in the five years preceding the mutiny. quest that he would suspend all operations At this moment three magnificent works with regard to the Enani Commission until of the highest importance were in prothe arrival of his successor at Madras. gress of construction one, the screw. The object of the Commission is not to pile pier at Madras, where for a hundred disturb the old tenures, but, on the con- years past passengers and merchandise had trary, to confirm them, and to give a Par- been landed through the dangers of the liamentary title to a great mass of property surf, but which dangers were now about the validity of the title to which is disputed. to be removed by the erection of a screw

COLONEL SYKES said, that probably the pile pier another, the water works in best course would be to defer any dis- Bombay, which would be completed this cussion on these subjects until the noble year, the water being conveyed from Lord made bis statement ten days hence ; Salsette--and the last, the improvement of but in reference to the observation of the the harbour of Kurrachee in Scind, at a hon. Member for Birmingham that he hoped great outlay, which improvement, when the noble Lord would not permit old Indians finished, would make the harbour accessi. to overrule him, he had to remark that ble to ships of large burden, to the great adit did not follow because a man was an vantage of the important trade with Central “old Indian” that he was necessarily either Asia. As to the road communication that an advocate or an admirer of .. Enam Ten- really was not a question of so much imure Commissions.” There was not one portance as the hon. Gentleman (Mr. man in a hundred in this country who really Bright) supposed. For many months of the understood the question of tenure of land year, during the dry season, all India was in India. With respect to Enam Com. å road. The country was not divided or missions great misconceptions prevailed. separated by fences as in England, and the The rights to be inquired into were not whole country might be traversed in any the rights to the land, but the right of direction. Let us hope that with a prosEnamders to the Government tax which pect of the people of India having their issued out of it. There were a hundred confidence restored in the Government, different tenures of land in India, and if a there will soon be a return to that state Committee were to sit in that House and of prosperity to which the country had go into every tenure it would not finish its advanced before the late disturbances. labours for years. On the question of the Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said, he could production of cotton, he wished to know corroborate the statement of his hon. were they to compel the freemen of India Friend (Colonel Sykes), as to the growth of

for they were still free — to cultivate cotton in India. He had been in the princotton merely because it was wanted here?cipal cotton-growing districts, and was Cotton could be produced to an unlimited assured they were capable of growing an extent in India, and if the manufacturers of unlimited supply. The great difficulty at England wanted it, let them make it worth present arose from the considerable damage the while of the Natives to grow it in which was done to the cotton from the preference to sugar or indigo, or oil seeds; manner in which it was brought down to let them send their agents into the country the coast from the interior. It was carried as he had frequently told them during the on the backs of bullocks. One lond was last twenty years, and contract with the dragged a certain distance and toppled over, farmers, and cotton would be cultivated to after that another load was brought down any extent. The House, perhaps, was and so on, so that by the time it reached the not aware that while India exported some coast, it was often in a state of the greatest

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