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MERSEY DOCKS, LIVERPOOL AND MR. SAMUELSON said, he also was LIVERPOOL CORPORATION PROPERTY disposed to support the Bill; there was a RATING BILL.
beneficial occupancy, if not a beneficial SECOND READINO.
ownership, in the Liverpool Docks ; they Order for Second Reading read.
were the only docks in the kingdom exempt MR. HORSFALL said, lie rose to move from poor rate, and he did not see why the second reading of this Bill. The select that exemption should not be removed. Committee which eat last Session to con- SIR JAMES GRAHAM said, that sider the general question of the rating of having in the Select Committee devoted public property had stated in their report much toil to a thorough investigation of with reference to the peculiar case of the the Mersey Docks question, he appreLiverpool Docks Trust Property, that its hended the state of the matter to be this, exemption from rating depended on the the Court of Queen's Bench, by a decision special provisions of a local Act, and on of Lord Tenterden's, had declared that the construction which had been put thereon there was no beneficial interest in the dock by the Court of Queen's Bench, indepen- trustees, rendering them, as the law now dently of the general law upon the sub- stood, liable to the rate. If that were & ject; and that therefore if there was an in- false interpretation of the law, the remedy justice in that particular case it should be was to appeal to the Court of Queen's dealt with by a private Bill.
Bench, and try whether Lord Chief Justice Motion made and Question proposeil, Campbell was of the same opinion. But “ That the Bill be now read a second time." a Bill'was now introduced by the Govern
Mr. HEADLAM said, he should movement to alter the general law, and render as an Amendment that the Bill be read a trust property liable to rating. If that second time that day six months. Its ob- alteration of the general law were made, ject was to make the docks liable to pay the special question as to whether these rates from which they were at present ex- particular docks were not exempt under the empt. There was no body of shareholders local Act might be afterwards raised ; but or other persons having a beneficial interest until then he thought it would be a hard in the funds derived from these docks, but and extreme measure to charge the Liverall those funds were applied solely to de. pool Docks with a liability which the gene. fray the cost of maintaining the docks, and ral law did not impose ; and he therefore if after that there was a surplus of income thought that the Bill should be withdrawn. the charges for the admission of ships were Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, to be lowered. The effect of the Bill that in the unfortunate absence of his right would thus be to impose on the merchants, hon. Friend the late President of the manufacturers, and shipowners interested Board of Trade, it fell to him to express in the trade of the port of Liverpool, the what he believed had been the views of his payment of a large sum, to the advantage right hon. Friend upon the subject.
The of the rate-payers of that place. There Government entirely coincided with the was no special reason why these docks, views just expressed by the right hon. any more than others, should be rated, and Baronet the Member for Carlisle.
The within the last year £1,500,000 had been general question of the exemption of propaid by the dock trustees, virtually to the perty of this description from rating should corporation of Liverpool.
be considered by the House in connection MR. TURNER seconded the Amend with the Bill which had been introduced by ment.
his right hon. Friend the President of the Amendment proposed, to leave out the Poor-law Board. It would then be a fur. word“ now,” and at the end of the Ques- ther question, with regard to the Liverpool tion to add the words “ upon this day six Docks, whether, in consideration of the months.
great expenditure which had been incurred MR. J. C. EWART said, he should sup- upon them, and with which the trade of port the Bill. The Birkenhead Docks were the country was burthened, they should not rated, and the dock warehouses of Liver- be allowed some exemption ; but it would pool were rated, though no one had a bene- be unjust to prejudge this special case, in ficial interest in them. By a late decision which the objections to making the proof Lord Campbell's, the Tyne Docks were perty liable were stronger than elsewhere, also rated. It was desirable, in his opinion, before the general question had been disto let this case go before a Committee up posed of.
mind the lIouse of the long and painful, which shall contain a form wherein a person may contest between Manchester with the manu- simply declare that he conscientiously objects to facturing districts of the north of England this deelaration shall be exempted, and be from
the payment of this rate; and whoever makes on the one side, and the Liverpool Corpora- that time free from the obligation of paying the tion on the other, about the town dues, charge, and shall consequently take vo part in which the Corporation had levied upon the vestry nieetings until he consents to pay some trade and shipping of the port, and had rate.” applied to the benefit of the ratepayers of If he would bring in his Bill on an early the town of Liverpool. That question day? had finally been settled by the grant of
THE LORD ADVOCATE said, that in £1,500,000 of property to the corporation answer to the first part of the hon. Memof Liverpool, instead of those town dues ; ber's Question, he had to say that the matyet in the following year the Corporation ter was under the consideration of the Gointroduced a Bill to reimpose those dues in vernment, with a view to sceing, whether the shape of dock rating. There was al- they could apply a remedy; but he was ready a debt of £6,500,000 on the docks not at that time prepared to say that any of Liverpool, in addition to what was pro- Bill on the subject would be introduced. vided as compensation for the town dues, In reference to the second part of the and to complete the docks £5,000,000 Question, he could not at present state the more would have to be expended, so that course the Government iutended to pursue, the bondholders might have reason to look and consequently he could not name an to the credit of the dock trustees. They carly day for bringing in such a Bill as already paid for the lighting of their docks that referred to by the hon. Member. and of the streets adjoining ; they paid a large sum for their own police ; and they ought not to be called upon to pay one
SUPERANNUATIONS.—QUESTION. third of the rates of the town of Liverpool MR. NICOLL said, he would beg to ask in addition to their present charges. the Secretary to the Treasury if Poor Law
Mr. IIORSFALL, in reply said, that it was Officers are included within the provisions an utter fallacy to represent that the Liver- of the proposed Superannuation Act? He pool Corporation had received £1,500,000 also wished to know whether Stipendiary of property from the dock estate; the fact Magistrates are to be included within the being that the dock estate had received an provisions of the same Act? advantage to the amount of £3,000,000. SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, in If the Bill were to be rejected, he did not reply said, that the provisions of the Bill see how the House could afterwards sanc. would apply to officers who were paid out tion any general measure fur rating similar of Imperial funds, but not to those who property.
were appointed by local authority, and paid Question, “That the word 'now' stand out of local funds. With regard to both part of the Question,” put, and negatived. parts of the hon. Gentleman's inquiry, Words added.
there had been so many doubts expressed Main Question, as amended, put, and and so many communications addressed to agreed to.
him (Sir Stafford Northcote) on the whole Bill put off for six months.
subject, that he purposed on some future occasion to make a general statement
which would embrace all the particulars. ANNUITY TAX (SCOTLAND).
FISHERY LAWS (IRELAND).
QUESTION. in a Bill to relieve the towns of Scotland MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he rose now subject to the Annuity Tax for pay. to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland ment of the Stipends of the Ministers of whether he proposes to introduce the Bill the Established Church ; if he will pro- for the Consolidation of the Fishery vide the same relief for Scotland as the Laws, prepared under the direction of the Secretary of State for the Home Depart- Fishery Commissioners, and referred to in ment proposes to give to England in the their last Report, or any other Bill on the case of church rates, namely :
subject ? “ That when the rate has been imposed the
LORD NAAS said, he hoped to introcollector shall take round certain papers, one of duce a Bill in the course of the Session to consolidate the Fishery Laws, but he could CONSULAR OFFICES IN JAPAN. not at present state at what period.
MR. MONCKTON MILNES said, he MANNING THE NAVY.
rose to ask Her Majesty's Government
whether, for the future, persons appointed QUESTION
to Consular Offices in Japan, will be subADMIRAL DUNCOMBE snid, he would mitted to the ordinary examination by the beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty Civil Service Commissioners, or to a special if it is his intention to bring the Report training similar to that now in practice in of the Royal Commissioners on Manning the Consular Establishment in China ; and the Navy 'under the consideration of the when they will be prepared to lay on the House; and, if so, at what time?
table of the House the revised scale of Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said, he was consular salaries recommended by the Comafraid he could hardly give ko definite an mittee of last year. answer to the question of his bon. and MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD : Sir, gallant Friend which he should desire to I must confess that I was in hopes, after do. The subjects involed in that Report the very satisfactory statement I was were of such immense consequence to the enabled to make on Friday, that we country, and involved so great an expen- should not have heard anything more diture, that Her Majesty's Government had of these appointments in Japan. I own thought it necessary to give them the most I cannot congratulate the hon. Gentleman mature consideration before they deter- on having left the system of open atmined upon the course they should adopt. tack which was perfectly fair, and now But he could assure his hon, and gallant having recourse to the less direct method Friend that there should be no delay in of putting these questions. I can only giving the subject the consideration it de- inform him that it is intended for the served.
future that there shall be a special train. ing for those who receive appointments to
the Consular service in Japan. They will TORTURE OF A FOX,
not be instructed in Chinese, but in JaQUESTION.
panese, and also in Dutch, the European MR. C. C. CLIFFORD said, he would language chiefly spoken there. I may here beg to ask the Under Secretary of State observe that, in fact, this system has alfor the Home Department whether his at ready been commenced, and that student tention has been called to a case brought interpreters have been appointed in Japan. before the Bench of Magistrates in Hamp. That system is best exemplified by a note shire, concerning the torture of a fox, which which, though unsolicited and unexpected, which had excited great disgust in all bas been written by Dr. Jelf, Principal of classes of the community, especially among King's College. Dr. Jelf says,foxhunters. And whether, in bis opinion, it would not be advisable to extend the Lord Malmesbury, some one ought to state that
“I cannot help feeling that, in mere justice to provisions of the Act 12 & 13 Vict., c. 92, his Lordship has made his appointments of Chinese by making penal the torturing of other student interpreters upon exactly the samo prinanimals besides domestic animals.
ciple as his predecessors. [A laugh.] MR. HARDY said, that in answer to that statement seems to provoke a smile ; the hon. Gentleman's question he begged but I believe that Lord Malmesbury, like to state that his attention had not been his predecessors, has strictly adhered to drawn to the matter officially ; but, in con- the understanding-namely, that the stusequence of the intimation he had received dent interpreter should, as far as possible, of the question, he had looked into the be selected from those who had undernewspapers, and had there read an account gone previous training in King's College. which, if true, certainly disclosed a case of Iwish, with the permission of the Housethe utmost cruelty and barbarity. At the though it may, perhaps, be somewhat irresame time the obtaining of evidence of gular—to advert to the appointment of one cruelty to animals was attended with so gentleman as a student interpreter to Japan. much difficulty, that, although he could It has been said that the noble Lord apnot undertake to bring in a Bill on the pointed a man who had been a dependant subject himself, he would be happy to of his own. The facts of the case are consider the provisions of any Bill intro- shortly these. Mr. Fletcher was living in duced by any private Member.
very humble circumstances in the north of
Scotland, and having been employed as a | Affairs whether, in pursuance of the
desire gilly to those engaged in sporting, he was expressed by the Emperor of the French known to be constantly absorbed in some in his letter of the 30th of October last, studious pursuit, always having a book in addressed to Prince Napoleon, the negotiahis hand. It came to the kuowledge of tion relative to the inmigration of Indian those employing him that he was absolutely Coolies into the French Colonies was redenying himself food and raiment that he sumed ; and, if so, whether it has resulted might place himself at school and thus ad- from such negotiations that Her Majesty's vance himself in life. With the assistance Government has entered into any engageof some friends he did go to school, where, ment or understanding with the French in a very short time, he learnt both Latin Government for permitting or facilitating and French. This attracting the notice of the deportation of Indian Coolies into the those above him he was sent to college at French Colonies ; and also whether there Glasgow. There he displayed the same will be any objection to lay the Papers industry and aptness for acquiring lan relating to this subject upon the Table of guages, and the consequence has been that the House ? he so distinguished himself that he was MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD said, sent out as a student interpreter to Japan. in reply to the first part of the Question, I make this explanation because it shows that the negotiation relative to the immihow Lord Malmesbury has been made the gration of French Coolies had been reobject of detraction in a matter which sumed and was concluded ; and, in reply does him the highest credit.
to the second part of the Question, that MR. MONCKTON MILNES :- What Her Majesty's Government had entered is the answer to my second Question ? into an engagement with the French Go
MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD.- vernment for the purpose referred to. He The revised scale of consular salaries has apprehended that there would be no objecbeen a work of the utmost labour, requiring tion to lay the Papers on the Table. communications to be made with a great number of parties. It is not yet quite com
MINISTERIAL RESIGNATIONS. pleted, but it will be laid on the table at the earliest possible moment.
MR. WALPOLE : Mr. Speaker, before THE RIGHT OF VISIT-QUESTION. you proceed to the business of the evening,
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE I trust I shall be allowed, for the first time said, he wished to ask the Under-Secre- in my life, to ask the indulgence of the tary of State for Foreign Affairs whether House for a few minutes while I make the Correspondence with the Government some explanations with reference to a of the United States on the subject of the matter which is more or less personal to Right of Visit will be laid upon the Table myself. The House will have observed that of the House; and also whether those yesterday evening I forbore from taking my Papers will include any instructions given usual place, because I thought it would be during the year 1858 io the Commanders more convenient to my colleagues-my of our cruisers, with respect to the treat- former colleagues—that they should not ment of vessels suspected of Slave-Trading have any personal matter mixed up with and showing the American flag ?
the important measure which my right MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD said, hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchethat the Papers had been moved for in quer intended to introduce. I am not cer"another place," and that when obtained tain whether I should not have forborne from they would also be laid upon the Table of taking my seat again in this House until that House. Those Papers would include my successor was actually appointed ; the instructions given in 1858 to the Com- but as I find that some inisconceptions manders of our cruisers, with respect to have arisen, and been circulated, with the treatment of suspected vessels bearing reference to the reason which led to my the American flag.
resignation of office, I am sure the House
will not think I am taking an improper IMMIGRATION OF INDIAN COOLIES INTO course in venturing now to set myself right THE FRENCH COLONIES.
with it. In doing this, I must carry you QUESTION.
back, if you will permit me, for one year. MR. KINGLAKE said, he rose to ask It is just a year since I was asked by my the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign noble Friend at the head of the Government VOL. CLII. (THIRD SERIES.]
to join him in one of the most arduous and any other part of the subject but on difficult tasks which any Minister could have this point alone ; and in order to set myto perform-namely, to conduct, avowedly self right with the llouse and the country, in a minority in this House, the adminis- I hope I may be permitted to refer to the tration of the affairs of this great country. very language used by my noble Friend, I wrote to him to say that upon private when addressing the flouse of Lords on and upon public grounds I rather wished to this subject. On the 31st January, 1854, decline. The private grounds I need not my noble Friend said, mention ; and none of the public grounds I beg that your Lordships will not lose sight will I bere advert to, except that which of this, that from the earliest periods of the Parhas occasioned
liamentary history of this country there have been my resignation-namely,
two great divisions of constituencies, and it is a doubt whether I should agree with some upon due weight being given to each of these two of my colleagues on the Reform Bill, which that the whole balance of the constitution in the I knew they would have to propose.
My House of Commons depends. They are, on the noble Friend in the kindest manner-in
one hand, those who represent the propertythat kind manner which is not exceeded by property of the country, represented by the
landed, if you will, but the fixed and immoveable any one I have ever known—my nuble knights of the shire, elected by the freeholders and Friend in the kindest manner, and in terms those holding leases of property ; and on the other, which I will not venture to quote, requested the burgesses, elected by their fellow burges-es not me—aye, pressed me—to join him, and representing property, but representing residence
and occupation of premises. That distinction is stated that the suliject of Reform was a mat- as old as the earliest period of our history." ter for consideration and one to which in no point of detail was the Government then in My noble Friend went on to remark that
this any respect pledged. I said in reply to
à principle recognized, and my noble Friend, ** If there will be nothing the noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell
even extended, in the Reform Act, and dishonourable towards you or towards my colleagues in retiring from office, should i has constantly referred to that circumunfortunately not agree
stance, and expressly adhered to that dis
tinction. important question, I will consent to take
My noble Friend at the head of office and do my best to assist you.” It the Government went on to say,– was upon these terms that I joined the
Property was there, that is, in counties, made Government of my noble Friend. The dif
the basis of representation; number and residence
were the basis of representation with regard to ference which I then foresaw has arisen, boroughs. I do not pretend that this theory is and it is in consequence of that difference carried out in a! its integrity and with all its dethat I am no longer a Member of the tail. Theory it is not ; it is a practical distinction, present Administration. Joining the Ad-most important to be borne in mind if you desire
that the House of Commons should be not a mere ministration upon such ternis as these. I had representation of numbers, but a representation to consider what in all likelihood would be of property and numbers combined, one portion the principle upon which a keform Bill would of the Members representing more directly the have to be based. I had no need of conjec interest of property, the other representing more ture. Three times the subject had been and numbers. I do trist that the Government,
directly and immediately the interests of residence introduced into this House
in the measures they are about to introduce, will mendation of the Crown itself. Three not attempt to break down this old, well founded, times the House has assented to the con- and most important distinction.” sideration of the question-once in 1852, These were the words of my noble once in 1854, once at the end of 1857 ; Friend in 1854. I recollected these words and, I think, after that had happened, when I joined the Government. At the no division having been taken upon the end of the Session we had to consider how subject, and no Amendment having been the pledge should be redeemed of giving to suggested, the consideration of the ques. this country a Reform Bill based upon tion of Reform was a duty and a neces- principles which Conservatives have always sity imposed upon every one who took advocated, and also with a view of making a part in public affairs. As I have said, I a permanent and satisfactory settlement had no difficulty in conjecturing what I of the question. My opinions were perthought the principle of the Reform Bill fectly well known to all my colleagues would be. My noble Friend at the head throughout our discussions ; they were of the Government in the year 1852, known to my right hon. Friend the Chanand again in the year 1854, enunciated cellor of the Exchequor early in Septhose principles in the clearest possible tember. They were known and repeated, manner. I will not quote bis words upon strongly repeated, to my noble Friend at