lord opposite thought him ready to admit, | from the result of the trials that had taken place, that any facts in those reports had been contradicted, he was so far from making such admission, that he thought the result of the trials strongly confirmed all that had been laid before the committee. Not only had 50 true bills for treason been found by the grand jury, but 36 individuals had been convicted, or had admitted their guilt. He would not now discuss any farther the reports of last year, but those reports had been, in that House at least, the result of unanimous opinion on the part of the committee; and, in the other House, the committee was also unanimous on the report, though there was a difference of opinion as to the measures that ought to be pursued in consequence. Their lordships had now laid before them important information on the state of the country since the period of the last report up to the present time; and the question was, whether the House would refer that information to a committee in the ordinary course? It would be open to that committee to determine how it should act on that information; it would be open to the House, whether it should act on the representation of the committee; and it would then be for them to consider, whether any other measures ought to be pursued? upon ex parte evidence; so the secret committees of last session had made their report upon ex parte evidence; and upon ex parte evidence ministers might get what report they pleased, as by making their own case they of course could obtain whatever report they pleased, if no other evidence was allowed to be brought forward. The motion was then agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tuesday, February 3. FINANCE COMMITTEE APPOINTED.] The dropped order for the appointment of the Finance Committee being read, Lord Castlereagh said, that in calling the attention of the House to this subject, he did not think it necessary to go over the same arguments which had been adduced when the committee was first constituted. The House would see the importance of losing no time in reviving that committee, as to which, he might say, that whatever difference there was respecting any particular measure which they might have recommended, there could be no difference as to its activity aad fidelity. If some doubted whether the course of their investigations had been in the true spirit which parliament and the country expected from them, there could be but one opinion as to the extent of their inquiries, and the importance of the objects to which they had turned their attention. The committee had drawn up six extensive and laborious reports respecting the. official establishments, the official reductions which were advisable, and the modi The Marquis of Lansdowne said, he had not opposed referring the papers to a committee of secrecy, on the contrary, he thought that was the most advisable course to be pursued. What he contended for was, that a large and extensive inquiry was necessary; and whether it was to be effected by creating a prece-fications which might be advantageous to dent, and giving the committee powers to send for persons, papers, and records, or whether they were to apply to the House to order the attendance of such. witnesses or the production of such papers as they thought necessary, was immaterial. He was certain of this, that if the inquiry was to be confined to the papers furnished by ministers, the result would not, he should hope, be satisfactory to that House; he was certain it would not be satisfactory to the country. The Earl of Carnarvon observed, that he had not stated that the reports of the committee of secrecy had been falsified, but that they had not been borne out by the subsequent judicial proceedings. As to the bill of indictment found by the grand jury at Derby, they hat found it the public service. Though the com. mittee had not imagined that the House had devolved to it the consideration as to what precise establishments would be necessary in the great branches of the public service-the army, the navy, and the ordnance; yet they had exhibited so many and so important views on that subject, that when the House hereafter discussed those subjects, their decision would be much more easy. The committee also had made inquiries on the great subject of the general revenue and expenditure of the country, and how far they were likely to square and meet. Other objects still remained for the consideration of the committee, and he should therefore move that it be revived. He should not think it necessary to go into a detail of the measures The motion was agreed to, and the following members appointed; viz. lord Castlereagh, Mr. Bankes, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, lord Binning, Mr. Bootle Wilbraham, Mr. Peel, Mr. Hart Davis, sir George Clerk, Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Tremayne, Mr. Nicolson Calvert, Mr. Davies Gilbert, Mr. Cartwright, Mr. Holford, Mr. Littleton, lord Clive, Mr. Gooch, sir Thomas Acland, Mr. Robert Smith, and Mr. Calcraft. which his majesty's ministers had adopted | year. He should propose the same names, in consequence of that report, but it as well on account of their respectability, would be the duty of ministers, immedi- as on account of the great addition to ately on the re-appointment of that com- their experience.-The noble lord then mittee, to give a full account of what they moved, "That a select committee be aphad done, on its recommendation. It pointed, to inquire into and state the inwould be then shown that the earliest atcome and expenditure of the united kingtention had been paid to their suggestions, dom for the year ended the 5th of January and that all their recommendations of par- 1818; and also to consider and state the ticular measures of economy had been probable income and expenditure, so far followed, except in particular instances, as the same can now be estimated, for the in which they would lay all the grounds years ending the 5th of January 1819 and before them on which they had acted. the 5th of January 1820 respectively, and When he had first proposed the formation to report the same, together with their of this committee he had observed, that a observations thereupon, to the House committee to inquire into so large a sub- and also to consider what farther measures ject as the income and expenditure of the may be adopted for the relief of the councountry after so long a war, would pro- try from any part of the said expenditure bably go on to a second, or perhaps a without detriment to the public interests." third year, before it would conclude its inquiries, as it could not till that time be known what the permanent income and expenditure was likely to be, and what sum might be expended, not only without running in debt, but with the establishment of a fund for the reduction of that debt. His hon. friend the member for Bramber had (he thought unfairly) taken up this admission, and concluded that, because the inquiries were to be so long continued, nothing was to be done in the mean time. It would be seen that this inference was erroneous, and that the country had received substantial relief in point of sound economy. He should not wander to a statement of all that had been done, but he should mention that a reduction had been made in the army, especially in the amount of our force in Ireland. He was happy to say, that when parliament on a late occasion had placed confidence in the tranquillity of that part of the empire, it had not been disappointed. No government had less reason to fear local difficulties than the government of that island; and during the late time of distress, the spirit of charity and benevolence that had prevailed, and the exertions of the higher for the benefit of the lower classes, had drawn closer the bond of social attachment between them. It was interesting to observe how that country had passed through the late time of distress, without the obligation of granting relief being imposed by law. When the estimates were laid before the House, the increase and decrease of expense, and the reasons for each, might easily at one view be pointed out. He should now move to re-appoint the committee of last (VOL. XXXVII. ) Mr. Bankes said, that a right hon. gentleman, of great knowledge in matters of finance, was placed on the committee of last year, but had retired on account of the ill state of his health. It was now happily restored; and he suggested that he should be placed on the committee. Mr. Tierney said, that though he was somewhat recovered, he was still in too weak a state to attend to business in the morning and in the evening also. begged, therefore, to be excused from serving on the committee. He Lord Castlereagh said, that the manner in which the committee had proceeded was, to invite the attendance of any member of the House, who had peculiar information in any particular branch of public business. This was the case with the heads of official departments, and he did not think a better course could be pursued this session. He should be unwilling that any alteration should be made in the names on that committee, on account of their intimate acquaintance with the former part of the investigation; but the occasional assistance of any other member might be obtained. Mr. Bankes could not see how the right ( K ) hon. gentleman could be desired to give | creditors, had been a source to them of his attendance in that manner. If he did, he would only be an idle observer, as he would not have an effective voice. power and prosperity. But they now said, the continuance of the restriction was not for their convenience, but a measure of state policy. The declaration to MOTION FOR PAPERS RELATING TO this effect had been made by the memthe Bank of ENGLAND.] Mr. Grenfell ber for Taunton (Mr. Baring), who was said, he should trouble the House with a now in France, pursuing those negotiafew observations, in relation to the papers tions which were made the ground for the for which he was about to move. It continuation of the restriction-a meawould be absurd for him to affect any sur- sure, which, while it enriched the Bank prise at the communication of the chan- of England, impoverished the public, and cellor of the exchequer, respecting the sapped the means and solid resources of affairs of the Bank. Though he was un- the country. Before this measure was aware of the grounds which had been again adopted, a committee should, at stated for continuing the restriction, he least, be appointed, as in 1797, to sawas aware that on some pretence or other tisfy the public, not only as to the means such a communication would be made. of the Bank of England, which could not He had long expressed a persuasion in be doubted, but as to the principles on that House, that such a course would be which it conducted its operations, and taken, when the ministers approached whether they could justify so immense a the time when they were to fulfil those confidence as was to be reposed in them. promises and hopes, with which, for the The legislative acts by which the Bank last three years, they had entertained, had been protected during one and twenty might he not say deluded the House and years from payments in cash, were eight. the country. Those promises had been given Three had been brought forward in 1797; not only by the chancellor of the exche- three during the administration of lord quer, but by other members of his ma- Sidmouth, about the time of the Peace of jesty's government, and particularly by Amiens; and two by the present chanthe right hon. the surveyor of woods and cellor of the exchequer. The pretexts forests. There were words, too, intro- for them were, war, subsidies to foreign duced into the bill, to impress more powers, foreign expenditure, the high strongly on the country the confident ex- price of bullion, the war of the French pectation that, on the 5th of July next, against our finances, or their great desire the Bank would resume its payments in to get hold of our gold; but of all the cash. These fair promises and protesta- pretences on which the restriction had tions on the part of the government, were been justified, there was none so futile, met by similar promises and protestations so flimsy, or so insulting to the underon the part of the Bank. The governors standing of the House and the public, as of that corporation declared, that they that which was now brought forward. were not only able, but most anxious to Were they to be told, because France, or discharge their solemn engagements to Austria, or Prussia wished to negociate the public. If the directors were sincere, loans-that, because two or three merand he had no reason to believe that they chants in the city, Messrs. Rothschild for were not, particularly one director, of instance, wished to have negotiations great respectability, not in that House- with foreign powers, the House of ComMr. Harman-the Bank, for its credit, was mons was to inflict an evil on the people desirous of resuming its payments. That of England? Besides, this restriction corporation would, he hoped, beg to be re- would give the facility to transactions lieved from that situation in which it had which the chancellor of the exchequer debeen placed in the year 1797, which, precated. The fact was, that if the Bank whatever profit was derived from it, was a resumed its payments in cash, not one situation of disgrace. The situation of shilling of British capital would go fronr the Bank was anomalous. Nothing was the country. He agreed that trade should to be found like it in the history of trade not be interfered with, and that the trade or commerce. What would have been in money should be as free as any other ruin to any other body, was the cause of trade in any other article. But was the their wealth. The stopping payments for article of money free while the Bank resone and twenty years, the failure of all triction lasted? If he had to make his their engagements to the public and their choice between cash payments and foreign loans, he should prefer cash payments, and he should be willing to see all foreign loans prohibited, so long as the Bank did not resume its payments-and no longer. There was an argument as to the exchanges connected with this subject, much of a similar nature. It was said, that the state of the exchange was against us, and thus prevented the return to cash payments. The effect here had been mistaken for the cause. So long as there was a paper currency not convertible into cash, the exchange would be against us. The authors of the evil thus attempted, in that very evil, to find a reason for the acts which had produced it. He thought that a paper currency was a great benefit, but to secure this benefit, it should be founded on, and referable to, some standard definite, and to a great degree unchangeable. For this purpose, gold and silver formed the best, and perhaps the only standard which had been discovered by mankind, and the sooner they reverted to it the better; the longer they continued in the present course, the more difficult would be a return, and the greater would be the convulsion it would occasion. If this was an error, he shared it with all great political writers, from Locke to Adam Smith, the late lord Liverpool, and even the present ministers; for they always had acknowledged the principle, though they deviated from it in practice. He concluded by moving for various accounts of the Bank notes and post bills in circulation during the last year; of the balances of public money in the hands of the Bank; the price of bullion, and the rate of exchange; and of the allowances made to the Bank for business done for the public. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he had no objection to the production of the papers. As to the remarks of the hon. gentleman, another opportunity would occur for discussing them, and he should not then trouble the House. The motions were agreed to. SECRET PAPERS PRESENTED.] Lord Castlereagh presented, by command of the Prince Regent, a green bag, containing information respecting the internal state of the country; to be kept in the custody of the clerk of the House. The noble lord said, he should on Thursday move that they be referred to a committee. INCOME TAX PAPERS.] Mr. Brougham wished to know, from the chancellor of the exchequer, whether the returns made under the income tax had been destroyed. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, a circular had been sent to the different collectors to destroy all papers on the subject, except such as were necessary at the receivers-office to collect in and check the unpaid balances. Mr. Brougham wished to know, whether answers had been given to this circular, and whether the command applied to copies as well as originals. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that answers he knew had been returned in some instances, probably in all. The circular applied to all papers-copies as well as originals. MR. HONE'S CASE-INFORMATIONS EXOFFICIO.] Mr. William Smith said, that at present he did not conceive it necessary for him to go into a minute detail of the circumstances connected with the motion which he had announced. He should content himself with moving, that an account be laid before the House, of the sum received from Mr. Hone at the crown office for copies of the various informations filed against him, in order to form the grounds of proceedings which he intended hereafter to bring forward. He took that method of procuring the necessary information, as he thought it best adapted for bringing that information before them with the greatest degree of authenticity. At the same time he thought it proper to mention, that the case of Mr. Hone was rather the incidental occasion than the reason of the motion now proposed for their consideration. He had for more than twenty years been of the same opinion respecting the expediency of reform in this department; and he now took shame to himself that he had been so remiss in bringing it under discussion. Had the subject been repeatedly agitated, it was impossible but some amelioration should have taken place. As to Mr. Hone, he had never known any thing of him till the time of his trial, but he was ready to confess, that in considering the recent prosecutions instituted against him, he could not help admiring the intrepidity, sagacity, and skill, with which he had conducted his own defence. He had since had an opportunity of conversing with him in private, and he must declare that he discovered nothing that could tend to give him an unfavourable impression of his character, nothing unbecoming the man ners of a gentleman. As for the parodies published by Mr. Hone, his opinion perfectly coincided with that of the public in general, that they were highly censurable; and it was not the least honourable part of Mr. Hone's conduct, that immediately on finding that such was the public impression respecting them, he used every means to prevent the circulation. But those parodies, however censurable, were not a fit subject to be animadverted on in a court of justice. It appeared to him that the free operation of public opinion was the only adequate and proper check to their popularity. He said he had little more to trouble them with on the subject, and disclaimed any intention of complaining of any party. He had the authority of Mr. Hone to state, that the conduct of the attorney-general towards him was that of a man of urbanity, politeness, and justice. If any blame could attach to the conduct of that gentleman, Mr. Hone conceived it was in not including the three informations in one: in every other respect he had shown himself a gentleman and a man of humanity. It was of the law itself, as it at present stood, that he had to complain. From the officers of the crown he had received every attention. Neither did he mean to reflect on the conduct of the learned lord on the bench, in refusing to furnish copies, as he found that, according to law, he could not have acted otherwise. It was in the law itself, therefore, that reformation was required, and the motion he was about to make had occurred to him as the proper parliamentary mode of bringing the subject under their notice. He should therefore move" That there be laid before this House, an account of the sum received at the Crown-office from Mr. Hone, for the copies of the informations filed against him by the attorney-general, with the authority on which the same was demanded, and the use to which the same was applied," The Attorney General said, he saw no reason for acceding to this motion, as it did not appear that any thing was done towards Mr Hone, different from that towards other persons similarly circumstanced. This, indeed, the hon. mover had admitted, that nothing more was exacted by the crown office from Mr. Hone, than would have been demanded from any body else in the same situation, and that he (the attorney-general) wished to be distinctly understood; for as Mr. Hone had not suffered a different mode of treatment as to the fees of office, from that experienced by others in his condition, he saw no reason why his case should be made the particular ground of any general measure of regulation. Such a measure appeared to be the ulterior object of the hon. mover. But if such were the case, why not, instead of selecting any specific case, move rather for a general return of the fees received at the Crown-office for copies of informations filed by the attorney-general, with a statement of the authority upon which such fees were demanded, and the purpose to which they were applied? Such a motion would bring the whole question fairly forward, and it would then be for the wisdom of the House to consider whether a practice sanctioned by immemorial usage required any alteration or amendment. It ought to be known that the master of the Crownoffice, or the chief judge of the court of King's-bench, had no right to order that Mr. Hone, or any person in his situation, should have a copy of any information filed against him free of expense, because such expense was but the remuneration to which the clerks in the Crown-office were entitled for their trouble in drawing up such copy. If it appeared that the remuneration obtained from Mr. Hone had exceeded that required from any other individual, there would be some ground for this motion; but as such excess was not alleged, the motion struck him to be totally unnecessary for any parliamentary purpose. If it was the object of the hon. mover to ascertain the amount of fees received at the Crown-office, he could find a record upon the Journals explanatory of all fees exacted for copies of informations filed by the attorney general, as well as of indictments found by grand juries; for the expense for copies and subpoenas was the same upon both. The exaction of those fees had been a practice of very ancient date he could not say how long the practice had existed before, but there was a distinct record upon the Journals stating the amount of those fees, in a return to the House in the year 1693, and the fees were still the same, with the addition only created by different stamp acts. Under these circumstances he repeated that the present motion was quite unnecessary, because the information which it professed to have in view might be had from the return which he had already mentioned. On these grounds he felt it : |