connected with law proceedings to which he should take the liberty of referring, and in what he should say on that subject he was fully persuaded he should be supported by the concurrent opinion of the noble and learned lord on the woolsack. He meant the state of the law with regard to the stamps on legal proceedings. The duties on stamps had been imposed during a time of war; but if the necessities of such a period could be urged as a reason for laying them on, it might reasonably be hoped that the burthen would be lightened on the restoratiun of peace. Their lordships were now called upon to consider whether these oppressive duties ought to be continued. In his opinion, the public distress had afforded no excuse for these taxes, which were levied on private distress-which were often extracted from misery itself. Disapproving of all law-taxes, which were burdens imposed on the necessitous, and obstacles to the obtaining of justice, he could not but condemn the enormous duties levied by law stamps. Great, however, as the evil was, it had been immensely aggravated by the ingenuity of clerks and officers in some of the courts to which he had already alluded; for when, by an act of the legislature, stamp-duties were required on office-copies of certain papers, these clerks had availed themselves of that circumstance to increase their fees. In Ireland the fees had on this ground been in general augmented 25 per cent. There was a case mentioned in one of the reports, where the stamp-duties came to 694.; but the charge, including fees, was 459l.: so that, when the legislature intended that parties were to be charged only 69., about seven times that sum was extorted from them. Thus property was destroyed by the means to which it was necessary to resort in order to secure it. He was far from imputing any blame to his majesty's government on account of these nefarious transactions. He had no doubt that mi nisters would visit the offenders with just severity, and believed them to be perfectly disposed to check, and even extirpate, the evil; but it would be satisfactory to the House to know what measures had already been taken towards this end; and this was certain that it was their lordships duty to see that the object was accomplished. The noble marquis concluded with moving, "That an humble address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, praying that he would be graciously pleased to give orders that Copies of the Reports of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Fees of the Courts of Justice in England, Scotland, and Ireland, be laid upon the table of the House." The Earl of Liverpool did not rise for the purpose of opposing the motion, which, on the contrary, had his most cordial support, but to make a few observations, suggested by what had fallen from the noble marquis. Their lordships must have heard with satisfaction what had been stated by the noble marquis respecting the heads of the different courts, whose conduct, as might have been expected, had been found liable to no kind of imputation whatever. He must also take the liberty of remarking, that nothing in the statement which their lordships had heard, and the matters of complaint in the reports, in scarcely any respect applied to the courts of England or Scotland, but were confined almost exclusively to Ireland. The investigations had been carried on with the greatest impartiality, and with all practicable diligence; and he believed he spoke the opinion of every man who had seen the reports, when he said that the conduct of the commissioners had been most exemplary. Indeed, every circumstance mentioned by the noble marquis tended to prove the honourable and upright manner in which their inquiries had been prosecuted. Four reports had already been made, and there were two more in a very forward state. The report on the court of chancery had been referred, after it was drawn up, to the lord chancellor of Ireland and the master of the rolls, by whom the labours of the commissioners were approved. With regard to the court of exchequer, in which the right of appointment to the office of the clerk of the pleas had become a question of legal dispute, the report was equally approved. A decision had been given in favour of the Crown by the court of King's-bench in Ireland as to the appointment of the clerk of the pleas; but an appeal had been made to their lordships House, where the final judgment must now be given. The report respecting the courts of error was important, and he could assure the noble marquis that his majesty's government would be happy to carry the recommendations of the commissioners into effect. He had thought it necessary to make the few explanations with which he had troubled the House. It would be for their lordships, when the reports should be before them, to consider whether it would be requisite to apply farther remedies to the evils complained of, which had arisen from no neglect in his majesty's government, and the existence of which could scarcely have been suspected before the investigation of the commissioners disclosed them. In the mean time, it could not escape observation, that this inquiry was one of the advantageous results of that measure by which the two countries had been united, and the proceedings which might be instituted on the reports would afford a farther proof of the attention of the united parliament to the interests of the people of Ireland. The Earl of Lauderdale had great satisfaction in hearing that none of the extortions which his noble friend had recited were chargeable on the courts in Scotland. He could not help, however, reminding the noble lords opposite, that an inquiry of the same kind which was now acknowledged to be so salutary, had formerly received their disapprobation. The commissioners, who had been appointed to inquire into the state of the courts in Scotland, had not only reported what they considered as abuses, or unnecessary burdens, but had pointed out the means of redress. He hoped, however, that the report which he had heard would not prove true, namely, that appointments had lately been made to some of the of fices in Scotland, the abolition of which had been recommended by the commissioners. He was exceedingly glad that these reports were to be laid on the table, which would give their lordships the opportunity of judging whether it was proper that the commissioners should continue their labours. It would be proper to take care that these commissions were not maintained longer than was necessary; for they were attended with no little expense. If maintained too long, they would justly deserve the name of jobs, and parliament ought to be as careful in guarding gainst the evils which might arise from their undue continuance, as in abolishing the abuses they had been the means of disclosing. bert Peel presented a Petition from all the cotton-spinning factories of Stockport, in favour of the Cotton Factories bill. The petition, he said, was entitled to great attention, because it came from persons well acquainted with the facts in which they desired alteration. It would show, that the masters themselves were petitioners at the bar of the House in favour of their labourers. It was signed by seven master manufacturers, the opinion of one of whom, Mr. Entwistle, was entitled to the greatest consideration, and of the rest he was persuaded, that if they believed the measure he had brought forward would tend to injure the trade, they would be the last to petition for it. It was, moreover, signed by thirteen resident clergymen, who had an opportunity of knowing the condition of the objects of it, and by not less than eight medical gentlemen. He thought the petition was of the first consequence, in showing the necessity of the measure he wished to have adopted.-The petition was then read: it purported to be from the labourers above sixteen years of age, employed in the cotton-spinning factories of Stockport, and others of that town, and stated in substance, that under the existing regulations, workmen were over-laboured, over heated, and subject to oppressive inconveniences; that the personal experience of most of the petitioners showed how injurious the system was to the constitution. It prayed that a shorter period of labour might be established, and added, that the petitioners had no expectation of relief, but from the wisdom and liberality of parliament. Sir James Graham thought that the House would not attach as much importance to the petition as the hon. baronet had, when they were informed of the real character of the petitioners. He would inform them, that these petitioners were no other, for the most part, than a set of idle, discontented, discarded, and good-fornothing workmen, who conceived that they did too much, when in employment, for the wages which they received. He knew them to be of the description which he had stated, and he had no doubt, that if the bill before the House were carried in the present session, these men would endeavour next year to have a bill carried to limit their hours of employment to a much smaller number than that which was fixed by the bill. He thought that manuCOTTON FACTORIES BILL.] Sir Ro- factories and the workmen employed in The motion was then put and agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS. them should not be interfered with by any legislative regulation, so far as the hours they might consent to work were concerned. He should beg leave to add, that if such a regulation, with respect to free labour, had been passed when he was a boy, he should never have had the honour of a seat in that House. Mr. Curwen said, he was averse from granting the prayer of the petition. The petitioners asked that their time of labour might be reduced to ten hours and a half: if that was conceded, the next prayer would be, that it might be brought down to nine. The House should remember, that if the principie were once adopted in the case of the cotton-spinners, there was not a trade in the kingdom that would not desire the same interference and the same reduction. He thought an alteration was advisable; but he verily believed it would come at no great distance from the parties interested themselves. He believed the masters, if left to themselves, would shortly reduce the hours to twelve. Sir R. Peel begged it to be distinctly understood, that, to his certain knowledge, the character of the petitioners varied materially from the character given of them by the hon. baronet. They were respectable inhabitants of Stockport, professional men, and clergymen, who, observing the evils of the existing system, stepped forward to give that information which the House ought gratefully to receive. He was certainly of their opinion; having long been convinced (and he was happy to hear that his hon. friend who had last spoken entertained similar sentiments), that the hours of labour in cotton factories were protracted to an excessive length. had occurred in the committee upon the subject of manufactories. It was there ascertained, that children of a more tender age were employed in the silk factories, and for a longer time. The same might be said of the potteries, but no remedy had been applied to them. Why, he asked, if the evil was admitted to be the same in both cases, was not the same remedy applied? Why not extend the operation of the bill to all cases where similar causes might render it necessary? But he could state to the House, that it was not the fault of the manufacturers that the people were employed for so long a portion of the day. They were compelled to work by that greatest of all necessities-hunger. The evil was inherent in the very nature of manufactories, and in the present state of society, and unless these could be altered, it would be useless to make any legislative regulations to remedy the evil which arose out of them. Let those who possessed manufactories endeavour to improve the condition of those who they employed. They possessed the means of doing so under many circumstances; but the House was mistaken if they imagined that the evil could be remedied by mere legislative measures. He was aware that many of the master manufacturers had consented to the present measure from motives of humanity. He gave them credit for it, but he wished that a mistaken notion of humanity might not lead them to injure those whom they wished to serve; and he was convinced, that the effects of the present bill would operate more to the injury than the benefit of those for whom it was intended. Mr. Wynn, without entering into any argument on the question, wished merely Mr. Bulterworth said, that he knew to state, that he did not think the adopmany persons in the north of England, tion of the bill which had been introduced who were in no way interested in cotton by the hon. baronet, would evince any factories, but who were unequivocally of hostility to the principle, that it was geopinion, that unless some decided mea-nerally expedient not to interfere with sure were adopted, with respect to the rising generation, the lower classes of the community would, in a few years, become a most degenerate race of human beings. Mr. Finlay was well aware of the evils which were attendant upon protracted hours of labour in manufactories, but he was convinced they were not confined to the cotton manufactories alone. In several others there were younger children employed, and for a longer period of the day. He should state to the House what free labour. For on what was that principle founded? On the knowledge that, by leaving the regulation of the labour in the hands of the master, if he worked his labourer too hard, that labourer could resort to some other employment. Now this was wholly inapplicable to children of a tender age, who were placed in cotton factories, and who were necessarily at the mercy of their masters. What remedy had they if they were overworked? He did conceive, that it was in strict conformity to the principle on which the House ought to act, that they should interfere in the case of children who had no resort when oppressed. Where was the difference between children who were free labourers and apprentices? Those children, who were placed in cotton factories by their parents, had no more remedy if overworked than apprentices. They had not so much; for apprentices had it in their power to go before a magistrate, and complain if their masters tasked them beyond their strength. If it was proved that in any way the masters were enabled to task the children whom they employed beyond their health and strength, he was completely ready to contend, that a case had been made out which called imperatively for the interference of the legisla. ture. Ordered to lie on the table. WAR IN INDIA.] Mr Howorth rose and said;—I am desirous, Sir, of putting some questions, on a very interesting and important subject, to the right hon. gentleman opposite, who is at the head of the administration of India. It has been stated to the public, in the daily prints, that two battles have been already fought between the company's troops and the Mahratta forces. It has been said, that the Peishaw, with a large army, amounting to 40,000 men, attacked a body of the company's troops, which had been admitted into his territory in perfect amity, and for purposes of mutual advantage. I am not aware what could have been the motive for this sudden act of hostility on the part of a chief with whom the company had been for so many years on terms of friendship, but the statement is, that with the army which I have described, he did actually attack a body of 4,000 subsidiary troops in the service of the company. This gallant little army is said to have completely repulsed its assailants, and its success is in a great measure attributed to the bravery and skill of its officers; but in consequence of the great disparity of numbers in the contending parties, the conflict is described to have been severe, and the slaughter to have been in proportion to that disparity. A few days afterwards, it is said that the company's army, having received a reinforcement, attacked the Mahrattas in their turn, defeated the Peishwa, and got possession of Poonah, his capital. It is likewise stated, that unfortunately two British officers fell into the hands of the Peishwa, and that they were It has been the immediately executed. usual practice with the court of directors whenever dispatches have arrived from India of battles fought and lives lost, to take the earliest opportunity of removing the public solicitude by giving details of the actions and returns of the killed and wounded. In the present instance, the dispatches have not come to the directors, but have been transmitted to the Secret department, and are in the board of control; it is therefore that I ask whether these statements are founded in fact? If they are, I am quite sure that the right hon. president will feel the propriety of taking the earliest opportunity of relieving the relations and friends of those engaged in these transactions from that anxious state of suspense in which they are at present most painfully placed. But, Sir, I understand that later accounts have been received from India of still greater importance. It is said that the rajah of Berar, with a force similar to that under the Peishaw, made a simultaneous attack on another body of the company's subsidiary troops. I confess, Sir, that this last intelligence fills me with the most unaffected alarm; and I beg to ask the right hon. gentleman, with reference to this as well as to the former report, whether or not it is founded in fact? and if it is so, what are the particular circumstances which have come to the knowledge of his majesty's government with respect to it? Mr. Canning said:-I am very ready Sir, to give the hon. gentleman and the House all the information in my power on this subject, although I cannot undertake to enter into any of the details respecting it. It is undoubtedly true, that the Peishwa has commenced hostilities against the forces of the East India Company. It is undoubtedly true, that in two actions fought between armies greatly disproportionate in point of number, the advantage was decidedly in favour of the company's troops. But Sir, I am happy to add, that one part of the statement refered to by the hon. gentleman, is not true, namely, that the slaughter was proportionate to the disparity of the force of the conflicting parties. We are not in possession of such returns with respect to these battles as it would be fit to publish under the authority of government. While the possibility of doubt exists with respect to the accuracy of the eturns, it would be highly improper to and if he will do me the favour to communicate with me on the subject, I shall be very happy to assist him in preparing such a motion. Mr. Howorth expressed himself extremely obliged to the right hon. gentleman for the candid reply which he had made to his questions. He would certainly avail himself of the right hon. gentleman's kind offer of assistance, and would take an early opportunity of submitting to the House a motion on the subject. Lord Morpeth thought the House much indebted to the hon. gentleman, for having called their attention to this important subject. He agreed with the hon. gentleman, in thinking that the circumstances had a very formidable appearance; and he trusted that the public would soon be put in possession of accurate information with respect to them. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE--INTERFERENCE OF A PEER IN THE ELECTION OF A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.] give them any official sanction; for those who are as well acquainted with India as the hon. gentleman, know well how much private account from that quarter of the world outrun official details in various relations. Some of the statements, therefore, which have been alluded to by the hon. gentleman, I, morally speaking, have no doubt are facts, although I am not competent so to announce them officially. As far, however, as I am informed on the subject, it gives me great satisfaction to say that it does not appear that these conflicts have cost the life of a single European officer, and that not more than three officers were wounded, the names of whom have appeared in all the newspapers, on the authority of the Bombay Gazettes, which, singular as it may appear, have not reached his majesty's government. It is, I fear, true that two individuals, the one an officer, the other a gentleman in the civil service, suffered in the way mentioned by the hon. gentleman. With respect to the proceedings of the rajah of Berar, the information possessed by the secret committee of the directors of the East India Lord Archibald Hamilton rose, in purCompany, and by the board of control, suance of the notice he had given, to bring rests on a single letter without a date. If before the House his complaint of a breach the hon. gentleman asks me if I believe of its privileges, by a member of the other the information which the letter contains, House of Parliament He regretted exmy answer is, I do. But if he asks me if tremely, being obliged to discharge so it is of such a nature that I can commu- painful a task as that, which his duty imnicate it with the sanction of official au- posed upon him on the present occasion, thority, my answer is I cannot. The hon. but he had in this business guarded himgentleman will easily see, that an undated self from listening to any thing, but that letter, which merely states an attack by which could be sufficiently proved to make the Mahrattas, but not the result-I mean out a case to the House, founded on authoany farther than their immediate repulse rity which could not be questioned. Such -is not an account of the transaction a case he would now submit to them, as which could with propriety be published must shield him from the slightest imputaby authority. This I will undertake to tion of being excited by personal feelings say, that there is no disposition in any alone. It would not be denied by any quarter to withhold intelligence respecting hon. gentleman who heard him, that the this interesting subject, or to do any thing privileges and the independence of that not conformable to the established usage House, were the sources of all the narespecting Indian affairs. But the hon. gen- tional power and prosperity. It was to tleman knows as well, or indeed much bet- secure those privileges and to support that ter than I do, how litte interest is excited independence, that he came forward on here by the occcurrences in that quarter of the present occasion; and therefore, whatthe globe. Singular as it may seem, it has ever might be the result of his motion, he never been the practice to communicate to hoped he should appear to the House to parliament any intelligence from India, have only discharged his duty in bringing except in cases of a very extraordinary the subject under their consideration. nature. So far am I, however, from wish- Frequently had the House of Commons ing to withhold any thing that can pro- been reproached for the manner in which perly be granted, that if the hon. gentle- it was constituted; and the best answer man will frame a motion for such informa- that could be made to the charges advanced against the purity of the House in many of the petitions that had been pre(4 M) tion as ought to be and can be furnished, I will most readily assent to its production: ('VOL. XXXVII. ) : |