France. It was, however, evident, that Russia was hostile to this country after the attack on Copenhagen; and, on that account, he contended it was a meanness in this country to ask a power so hostile to us to interfere for the purpose of making up the quarrel between us and Denmark. He was ready to admit the right hon. gent. had that night advanced strong reasons why an attack should not be made on Cronstadt. With respect to the value of the Danish ships, it was stated, in some accounts, that they were very good ships, because they stood the weather so well in coming home. But it appeared, from admiral Gambier's account, it was necessary to repair some of them before they were put to sea. From the regularity and preparation in the Danish navy, an inference was drawn, that they were intended to be made use of against us. But it must appear, to any person who ever visited Copenhagen, that, for fifty years past, it had been the practice of the Danes, a practice in which they prided themselves, to have their ships laid up in ordinary, in so complete a state of repair, that they could be fitted out in a very short time. But when we took the ships, we took the least efficient part of the Danish navy. We left behind 18,000 seamen, who would be ready to enter into the service of France; and France had ships enough for herself. The English had acted like shabby thieves. They took only one half of their booty. Why was not the French property at Copenhagen seized also? The only effect of the expedition was to arm the people of Denmark against us, and to shut us out from the Baltic; while Holland was entirely under the power of France, without the latter being at the expence of sending troops to conquer it. If the act in question was justified by necessity, he was ready to admit that it was justified in morality and in the sight of God. But it could not be justified. Ministers wanted to imitate the energy of France. But how did they do that? France had slain a giant, and then England must go and embrue her hands in the blood of an infant. The question now was, not whether the expedition was justifiable, but whether that house was bound to give credit to the assertions of his majesty's ministers, and whether it ought not to require further information? Lord G. L. Gower, as he had been so particularly alluded to, felt himself called on to say a few words in explanation to VOL. X. the house. He begged leave totally to differ from those hon. members who had asserted, that the hostile spirit of Russia arose in consequence of the attack on Copenhagen, but said, that it was a consequence of the pressure of the French, after the defeat at Friedland; for if his Imperial majesty could be obliged by that defeat to abandon Prussia, which, four days before, he had pledged himself never to do, it was hardly to be expected he would continue very friendly to the interests of England. In six hours after his imperial majesty's return to Petersburgh, the very first person to whom he gave audience was his Minister of Marine: the very first place he visited, was Cronstadt, and the first directions he gave, were for the equipment of the fleet, and the repair of the fortifications in that place, and this some time before the attack on Copenhagen took place. The noble lord remarked, that many persons in this country seemed to be of opinion that the expedition to Copenhagen was generally execrated on the continent. He could assure them, however, in so far as his experience went, that the contrary was the case, particularly in Russia. A great majority of the persons of consequence in that country rejoiced at the event which took place at Copenhagen, and those consisted not merely of what was called the English party, but others, who thought that Russia ought not to have entered into a war with France, and seemed to wish to insulate their country from the rest of Europe. These persons saw with alarm a French army in Poland, and another on the frontiers of Turkey, and they were happy at the check which the expedition to the Baltic gave to the views of Buonaparte, for they dreaded his hostility through Denmark. The noble lord also pointed out the inconvenience arising from the publication of what passed between his majesty's ministers and the governments of other countries. Foreign ministers had frequently expressed an unwillingness to communicate freely with him, because they did not know but that what they stated might, perhaps, in the course of a year, be made public. Lord Castlereagh contended, that ministers were not bound to lay before parliament all the information on which his majesty's Declaration had been founded. The hon. gent. had dwelt much upon the circumstance of his majesty's pleasure being taken on the expedition to CopenX dition, and had infinitely less of the plea of necessity to justify them. Mr. T. Grenville complained of the constant practice of introducing, collaterally, charges against the late administration. He thought, after what had passed the other day, that this practice would have been refrained from. The attack upon Turkey, in a period of peace, had been alluded to, though the secretary of state must have known that the orders given by the last administration were precisely the contrary of attacking the Porte during peace. On this subject, and on the Lisbon expedition, which had been also alluded to, there was nothing which the late administration so much desired as inves→ tigation. hagen on the 19th of July. The fact, | perfectly similar to the Copenhagen expehowever, was, that what passed on that day related only to sending a force to the Baltic, in order to ascertain the disposition 'of Denmark; the final instructions to attack were sent out afterwards. The hon. gent. admitted that France had the disposition to seize the Danish navy, and the only question was the disposition of Denmark, which must be judged of from circumstances. The Court of Portugal had given repeated information, that the demand of France was, that the Portuguese navy should be joined to the other navies of the continent by the 1st of September. Besides this fact, he wished to call the attention of the house to what had passed at one of Buonaparte's levees in one of those extraordinary conversations in which that person was accustomed to indulge Mr. S. R. Lushington took a view of the himself with foreign ambassadors, he ad- whole of the transactions relative to Rusdressed himself to the Portuguese minister, sia and Denmark, and then proceeded and asked him, whether he had trans- thus :--In applying, sir, the laws of nations mitted to his court the demand that the to the conduct of G. Britain towards Dennavy of Portugal should be ready to unite mark, the gentlemen on the opposite side with the other navies of Europe against of the house seem desirous of establishing England on the 1st of September. Hav a code of their own, separate from that ing said this, he immediately turned round law of nature, which, according to the to the Danish minister, and asked him best writers, is the very foundation of all whether he had made the same commu- the laws of nations. Their sentimental nication to his court. The noble lord, in system would embrace all nations but answer to the charge that ministers had their own. These ingenious disquisitions not gone far enough, observed, that after may be well calculated for the amuseit was found that Denmark could not be ment of the schools, but they are not fitted brought to any amicable arrangement, the for the events of real life, or a state of practicability of holding Zealand as a mi- ferocious war. Sir, the first law of nalitary station was taken into consideration. ture, the foundation of the law of nations, But the reports of the officers, who had is the preservation of man. It is on the been desired to direct their attention to knowledge of his nature, that the science this subject, proved that the force neces- of his duty must be founded. When the sary for the defence of that island was far feelings point out to him a mighty dangreater than this country could spare in ger, and his reason suggests the means of the state of military poverty in which the avoiding it, he must despise the sophistiformer administration had left us. It was cal trifler, who tells him it is a moral duty also thought that it would have been im- he owes to others to wait till the danger proper to advise his Swedish majesty to break upon his foolish head, lest he should furnish for this purpose a detachment from hurt the meditated instrument of his dehis ariny, to make up the deficiency of struction. Upon this general principle of ours, as the removal of that force would the law of nature and of nations, I mainhave weakened Sweden too much, in the tain the morality, and certainly the neevent of an attack from Russia. It was cessity of the Expedition against Copenalso proved from the report of admiral hagen. In applying this general prinKeats, on the probability of the enemy ciple to the state of Denmark, we shall transporting a force from Holstein to Zea- find that it derives particular force from land, that it would be impossible to keep her past conduct. It may suit the purpose up a blockade in the winter months suffi- the Moniteur to represent Denmark as enciently close to prevent that commu-joying a moral dignity in the circle of nanication. The noble lord then proceeded to shew that the designs of the late administration against Portugal were of a nature tions, and to insist that G. Britain had a sufficient guarantee in the sincere neutrality of Denmark, and in the cordiality of her attachment to England. I would ask, sir, whether it was a proof of the moral dignity of Denmark to attack the neutral state of Hamburgh, or of her neutrality to shut that port against the commerce of Great Britain, or a token of her attachment to us to originate and support a confederacy, having for its avowed object, the destruction of that maritime law which we conceive indispensable to our existence as an independent nation? All these circumstances, and those stated with such unanswerable truth, and matchless eloquence, by the right hon. the secretary for foreign affairs, justified his majesty's ministers in expecting similar demonstrations of the will and the power of Denmark, whenever the mandate and the alliance of France should promise her protection in them. I rejoice, sir, in the wisdom of those councils which has anticipated and has averted this danger. But I am astonished that any man in this house, or in any other, should doubt the reality of that danger, when he recollects, that in confirmation of all the other evidence I have stated, the Prince of Portugal has been driven from his dominions, because he would not join in that confederacy with France, Russia, and Denmark. With this impression, sir, of the conduct of ministers, I am thankful to them for the great service they have rendered to the state, and they may be assured that this feeling is general throughout the country. Let them proceed in the course they have already pursued, let them face unappalled the unnatural combination which is gathered around us, relying that the spirit of the people of Engwill keep pace with the energy of the go vernment. Sir C. Price regarded the Copenhagen expedition not only as just and necessary, but as wisely planned, and gloriously executed. Mr. Davies Giddy was sorry the information on which ministers had acted could not be laid before the house. However, as that was the case, he thought himself bound to acquiesce in the concealment which the government thought necessary. Mr. Ponsonby rose to reply. He remarked, that all he had asked for was information, and that all the answer he got to that request, was details respecting expeditions to Alexandria, the Dardanelles, and Lisbon, in order to prove some supposed misconduct in a former administration. The right hon. secretary had read extracts to prove the hostility of Denmark, but to this he objected, on the wholesome principle, sanctioned by courts of justice, which was, that when you propose to read a document in your defence, you must read the whole of it, for if you were permitted to read extracts only, it was probable that you would read nothing but what was favourable to yourself, and that you would omit all that was against you. He complained that the right hon. secretary had accused him of justifying Buonaparte. All the compliment he paid to France was to compare her conduct with that of the servants of the crown in this expedition. While the right hon. secretary talked so much of the morality of others, he ought to take care of his own. He had said that his majesty was disposed to wait for the operation of the thinking part of the Russian community, rather than, in the first instance, to resort to measures which might have a result more disagreeable to that monarch. This looked like intimating, that he was, from his discontented subjects, to meet the fate of his father. [a cry of no! no!] If such were not the meaning of the right hon. secretary, he hoped that more care would in future be taken in the words employed. Mr. Secretary Canning said, he was misinterpreted, and disdained the implication assigned to him. At half past five (on Thursday morning) the house divided, when the numbers were, For Mr. Ponsonby's Motion 108 Against it Majority 253 145 Dundas, W. List of the Minority. Abercromby, hon.J. Adam, W. Agar, E. A. Althorpe, viscount Antonie, W. L. Colbourne, Sedley Horner, F. Howard, W. Hunt, Robert Combe, H. C. Creevy, T. Cuthbert, J. R. Petty, lord H. Piggott, sir A. Poole, sir C. M. Pollington, visc. Ponsonby, G. Ponsonby, H. G. Prittie, F. A. Pym, Francis Romilly, sir S. Russell, lord W. Scudamore, R. P. Sharp, Richard Shelley, Timothy Sheridan, R. B. Smith, John Smith, W. Stanley, lord Taylor, M. A. Temple, earl Templeton, vis. Thompson, Thomas Thornton, Henry Tierney, G. Vernor, G. G. V. Walpole, G. Ward, J. W. Western, C. C. Wharton, John Whitbread, Sam. Wilder, Fr. John Williams, Owen Windham, W. HOUSE OF LORDS. Thursday, February 4. [DISPUTE WITH AMERICA.] Lord Grenville said, he had a paper to move for, which might tend to enlighten and guide the conduct and the discussions of that house, on that most important topic, our relations with America. It was with much anxiety and regret, he continued to look back at those expressions in his majesty's speech, where it was stated, that the president of the United States had refused to ratify the Treaty which had been sent out from this country to America. He was inclined to believe there was some inaccuracy in these expressions, which might lead to mischievous misconceptions. Their lordships were well aware, that the president of the United States could not, of his own authority, refuse to ratify a treaty of that kind; and that such a refusal must previously have the sanction of the Senate, &c. The principal paper he should now have the honour of moving for would be, the Message of the President of the 28th of Oct. last to the Houses of Congress. It was not in his power to contemplate the issue of our present discussions with America without uneasiness and apprehension. Much had been said of the comparative distress which either country must experience from a rupture; some contending that America would suffer most; others, that England would be the greater loser. He should not attempt to appreciate the comparative evils of either as resulting from a state of hostility; but he laboured under the melancholy conviction that the consequences of hostility would be extremely detrimental to both; and the reflection that the one must suffer a great deal, by no means mitigated, in his mind, the hardships with which, from the same cause, the other must be afflicted. Much, however, as he was disposed to deprecate a war with America, he should never think of averting that evil by the surrender of any of the just rights of England, more especially of her maritime rights, to which she owed almost every thing. Sooner would he consent to perish in a struggle for their assertion and conservation, than think of surrendering them in order to prevent that struggle. Much better was it to fall in the endeavour to maintain them, than tamely and deliberately to surrender that, from which sprung our proudest glory, from which chiefly flowed our strength and prosperity. He should still, notwithstanding, cherish the idea that the good sense and moderation of the two countries would obviate the necessity of an appeal to arms, and that their mutual interests would point out a safer and wiser conduct to pursue. Such were his feelings respecting the relative situation of the two countries. We had already all Europe against us: we should not be too eager to add America to the long and formidable catalogue of our enemies. The noble lord concluded with moving, That an humble Address be presented to his majesty, praying, that he would be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before the house a copy of the Message of the President of the United States of America of the 28th of Oct. last, to the Houses of Congress. Lord Hawkesbury said, he would not be led into any discussion of the points now at issue between the two governments, by any observations in which it had pleased the noble baron to indulge. He was as sensible as that noble lord could be, of the great importance of continuing on a footing of friendship with America; but, highly as he valued the continuance of those relations of amity and good understanding, he could never think of purchasing it by the surrender of any of our rights, much less of any of our maritime rights, upon which our very existence might be said to depend. At the same time, however, that he insisted on that resolution, he did not hesitate to say, that every thing would be done on the part of his majesty's government to manifest a disposition to peace and moderation; in a word, every thing that could tend, short of the sacrifices he had already alluded to, to maintain uninterrupted a good understanding with the United States of America. He had no objection to the production of the paper moved for by the noble baron.-The question was then put, and agreed to. Lord Auckland next rose, to move that there be laid before the house a copy of the Declaration delivered to the American Plenipotentiaries by the Plenipotentiaries of his majesty, in the month of Dec. 1806. When that document was before the house, an opportunity would arise of justifying the Orders in Council issued by his majesty's late government, and which his majesty had been advised to represent as inadequate to their purpose in the speech with which, in his majesty's name, the commissioners had opened the present session of parliament. He concluded with moving for the production of that docu 'ment. Lord Hawkesbury did not see the necessity of producing this paper. It was already before the world, and every advantage might be derived from it in argument which the noble lord could wish for. His objection to the production of it was chiefly an objection of form; for he was at a loss to see with what propriety a paper so intimately connected with the Treaty itself could be produced, while it was not thought proper or necessary to produce the Treaty itself. Lord Holland was surprized to see the noble secretary stop short so suddenly in his career of concession; and his surprize was still greater at the reasons assigned for it. The noble secretary refused to produce the instrument moved for by his noble friend; and why? because it had had a close connection with the Treaty, which it was not thought proper at present to produce. Yet, but a moment ago, he made no objection to the production of a paper moved for by another noble friend of his; which paper, however, had a much closer connection with the Treaty than that to which he now objected. However public the paper might be, it was for the dignity of that house, and for the convenience of discussion, to have it laid on their lordship's table by an order of their own.-The question was then put and negatived. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. Friday, February 5. [EXPEDITION TO COPENHAGEN.] Whitbread wished to know from the right hon. secretary for foreign affairs, whether he had any objection to lay before the house copies of the Letters from which he had read extracts in a late debate. He was desirous to know particularly whether there was any objection to the production of the Letter from lord Howick to Mr. Garlicke, and the letter from Mr. Rist, on the subject of the Orders in Council, with lord Howick's answer. It was due in fairness to that noble lord, as this last had been much dwelt upon, to place it before the house in a full and unreserved form. Mr. Secretary Canning wished the hon. gent. either to make a motion, or give notice of one; he should then know what answer to give. It was usual either to make a communication on these subjects in private conversation, or to give a previ ous notice publicly.-Mr. W. then gave notice for Monday; he did not want any private conversation. [ORDERS IN COUNCIL.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that the house do resolve itself into a committee of ways and means, and that the Orders in Council, presented to the house on the 26th of Jan. (see p. 126.) be referred to the said committee. Lord Henry Petty, had hoped, that before this motion should be brought forward, some explanatory papers would have been produced, and some explanatory statements made, to remove the doubts which existed as to the legality of the Orders themselves. Certainly, if there were doubts as to the legality, those doubts ought to be removed, before the sanction of parliament was asked for the Orders. His arguments in the present stage, would be directed solely to the legality; for the policy of the Orders could be more conveniently canvassed in the committee. He certainly felt great difficulty in entering into an argument on this head. Unlearned as he was in the law, like the majority of the members of that house, he was perhaps unfit to form an opinion on the strict legal right. But since the majority of the house must be made to feel and to |