963] HOUSE OF COMMONS, attended with much inconvenience. Confinement of Offenders in the Hulks. It [964 of every kind. Will it be contended, that But is admitted, that there will be no more difficulty, or trouble, in keeping these accounts, than in the case of common labourers; but it has been surmised, that although the officers of the different yards are willing enough to accept of the work of these men, while it goes for nothing, and the value of it does not enter into the calculation of what is spent in the yard, the employment of them will be disliked, habit of industry? Are not the habits and endeavours will be made (at least in some of the yards) to get rid of them alto- of mankind, in general, formed by a gether, if their services are to be esti- course of discipline and education, not mated, and their earnings brought to ac-adopted from choice, but imposed, for count. I will not undertake to say, that their benefit, by the will of others? some practical difficulty may not occur, to lay aside, for a moment, all question in framing proper arrangements upon this of amendment and reform, it will be head, from the cause here stated; but the great point gained, if we only prevent House will, I am sure, agree with me in the offender from becoming worse on thinking that difficulties of this nature are board the Hulks, and redeem this estanot to be submitted to as insuperable, butblishment, in some measure, from the obshould be encountered and controlled by the authority of Government; and will be ready to vest powers in any quarter, in which they may be required, for that purpose. I must here remark, that, if there be any ground for such an apprehension as that to which I have now alluded, it strongly fortifies the arguments in favour of the expediency of appointing deputy superintendents at each of the places where there are Hulks, as it constitutes of itself a sufficient reason for the residence, at every such place, of an officer of a higher description than that of a captain of a hulk, or an ordinary clerk, to see that justice is done to the public and to the convicts. loquy which is now attached to it (and justly) in the public mind. The objection now felt, to employ a person who has lately quitted the Hulks, is not that he has been criminal, but that his crime has been punished; it is not that he committed an offence seven or fourteen years ago, but that he has passed seven or fourteen years of his life in the pestilential air of an illregulated prison. Let these places of confinement be put upon a proper footing, and the convict will not experience the difficulties, which he now finds, in procuring an honest livelihood on his discharge; nor can I see any reason why, after this shall have been done, arrangements may not be formed for giving emI know that, in the opinion of many ployment to such of the convicts leaving gentlemen, there can be nothing less the Hulks, as may be inclined to accept likely to succeed, no project more vision-it, not in a separate establishment for that ary, than an attempt to produce amend-purpose (which might, perhaps, be objecment on board the Hulks. We cannot, tionable, as pointing out these persons too indeed, give to the offender, in these much to the notice of the public), but prisons, the advantage, which would be among the numerous labourers and manuafforded to him in a penitentiary, of re-facturers employed in different works by flecting, in a separate cell, without inter- Government. To this point, also, the atruption, on his past life and future pro- tention of a deputy superintendent might spects; but with the means of inspection possibly be directed with advantage. and separation, which experience has shown to be attainable in the vessel, and with due attention to the convict on shore, we shall at least be able to keep him from the commission of fresh offences against law or good order, during his imprison-management, pursued in these great na ment; from stealing-from gambling and swearing-from drinking and quarrelling from the use of indecent or profane language, and from vicious conversation I am aware that I have extended my observations upon this subject to a considerable length; but it will, I am sure, be felt by the House to be a subject of no ordinary importance. If the system of tional receptacles for convicted felons, concerned only, in its consequences, the individuals confined in them, it would still deserve the notice of this House; but if . the present state of these prisons be among | the causes, to which it is owing that the criminals of the present time are not only increasing in number, but are every day becoming more daring and more dexterous, the evil is one which demands the serious consideration of every member of the Legislature, as materially affecting the comfort and happiness of every class of his Majesty's subjects-of every private family in this kingdom. The people of this highly-favoured country, fenced in, and guarded by the sea, and relying, with a confidence warranted by experience, on the exertions of their navy, to protect them against invasion, know comparative ly but little of the evils and anxieties of foreign warfare; but the danger of these domestic enemies is ever present-it meets us in the ordinary business and transactions of life-it follows us into our chambers and private retreats-it disquiets the minds of persons of all ranks and conditions, and of the most retired habits-of thousands, by whom the convulsions which agitate the continent of Europe are unheeded, and whose rest the name of Buonaparté, when his power was at its greatest height, never disturbed. Mr. Bathurst observed, that as the hon. gentleman's remarks applied rather to the details than to the principle of the Bill, they would be more appropriate in the committee than on the present occasion. But as to the classification of the prisoners on board the Hulks, and securing their due separation, he feared that such a system could never be found so practicable in the Hulks as in those penitentiaries which were justly the subject of the hon. member's panegyric. The utmost effort would, however, be made to improve the arrangements in the Hulks; and with that view it was intended to construct seven or eight different compartments, among which the prisoners would be distributed by the governors, with the approbation of others, according to the degree of their crimes, the actual or probable reform of their morals, and the decency of their manners. Thus he hoped that provision would be made to guard against the general contamination which was justly to be apprehended from the indiscriminate intercourse of different descriptions of prisoners. He could assure the House, that nothing was neglected that promised to benefit the system of imprisonment under consideration. In order to encourage the reformation of prisoners in the Hulks, it 22, been for some time the established practice to make a quarterly report to the Prince Regent of such prisoners as were thought deserving of royal, clemency, which was never refused to proper objects; and the release of such persons must naturally have the best effects on the conduct of other prisoners. Another important improvement, too, was intended, and it formed a part of the Bill before the House, namely, that all prisoners transmitted to the Hulks should bring with them an account of their conduct at the prison from whence they came, also of the offence of Thus the which they were convicted, together with their trial and convictions. governor of the Hulks would be at the outset enabled to form a judgment how to class each prisoner so as more effectually to provide against improper intercourse. The right hon. member, after replying to the observation that prisoners in the Hulks cost the country more than those confined in the penitentiaries, by stating, that the former must have an allowance of beer from the much harder work in which they were employed, added, that such improvements as were in contemplation, he hoped, would be productive of a satisfactory result. The Sir Samuel Romilly strongly objected, not merely to the details, but to the principle of the Bill under consideration; because by that Bill it was proposed to perpetuate a system of transportation, which was found utterly ineffective for the purpose it professed. The rational object of all punishments, short of death, was obviously to reform the offender. But those who suffered transportation were generally initiated in new crimes, introduced to worse habits, and in every respect disposed to much more mischief to society than they were inclined to, or qualified for, before their transportation. question, then, for the House to consider on this occasion, was, whether a system, found so defective, ought to be continued; for the Bill under discussion referred to transportation as well as to the hulks. With respect to the latter, he saw no reason why any large number of prisoners should be confined together in one vessel; but he objected to the system of the Hulks altogether, whether they were to be used as a place of punishment, or for the temporary confinement of persons meant to be transported. In either case these Hulks were exceptionable, especially as no provision was or could be made in such places to prevent that contaminating intercourse, which served to introduce prisoners to vices with which they were before unacquainted, to teach them new sources of villainy. This was particularly to be deplored with regard to those unfortunate persons of tender years, who were so often confined in the Hulks. There were at the present moment on board the Hulks some children of the age of 14, 13, 12, and even 11 years of age; and it was a fact, that within the last four years no less than 105 children, under 16 years of age, had been transported to Botany Bay; yet it was notorious, that crimes had continued to increase; and did not such increase prove the radical deficiency of our system of police? That system ought, therefore, to be inquired into, and peculiarly deserved the attention of Parliament; for as it was the object of all punishment and criminal law to prevent offences, the system which failed to answer that end ought to be corrected. The House could hardly imagine the extent to which the progressive increase of crimes had gone of late years. But he had to state, from authentic returns, that while the number of committals in London in the year 1806 amounted only to 849, they reached in 1813 to 1,278; so that in the former year those committals were one-third less than in the latter, and this extraordinary increase of crime had taken place, let it be observed, in a period of war; although whatever calamities belonged to war, it had generally been remarked to have the effect of producing a diminution of crime, from the number of persons which it required for the army With this statement, then, before the House, he hoped that he should not say in vain that our system of police ought to be inquired into, and especially that a mode of punishment ought not to be tolerated, which, instead of reducing, operared to augment criminality. For what a serious responsibility would the House incur if it overlooked the subject, especially with regard to the poor child, who, probably from want of education, was led into delinquency, and consigned to a species of imprisonment which only served to qualify him for the worst crime, until at last the law exacted his life as the penalty of that contamination which its own injudicious exercise created. Thus, punishment, instead of effecting reform, rendered those who were the objects of it worse than before. He attributed a great and navy. part of the existing evil to the defective state of the police of the metropolis. By the present system, the police officers had the strongest interest not to put down young offenders, but to allow them to go on until their crimes became so enormous, as to be very profitable. It was the most serious duty of the House to inquire into all these circumstances, and most especially into the disgraceful fact of the great increase of crimes. He wished that the Bill might be stopped in its progress. If not, he implored the House to do no more in the present session than pass a temporary Bill for a twelvemonth, and in the mean time institute an inquiry into the various circumstances to which it related. Mr. Bathurst observed, that the Bill must pass, but that he had no objection to limit its duration. Mr. Bennet contended, that the Bill had been introduced in June instead of February, because it was known that the attendance of members would be thin, and that it would thereby escape much discussion. Conceiving that the Report of the Committee on the punishment of transportation to Botany Bay had been miserably defective, he pledged himself in the next session (if no one better qualified should undertake the task) to move for a committee to inquire not only into that subject, but into the state of the Hulks, and the Police of the metropolis. Mr. W. Smith regretted that the measure had not been brought forward at an earlier period of the session, but thought that some of the excellent suggestions of his hon. and learned friend might still be introduced into it. Mr. Wilberforce expressed a similar opinion; and dwelt on the improvement among the lower orders which the newlyadopted mode of general education was calculated to produce. The House then resolved itself into the Committee. After some discussion, in which Mr. Holford, Mr. Bathurst, and Mr. Wilberforce participated, a clause proposed by Mr. Holford to limit the dura tion of the Bill to the 1st of May next was agreed to; and the House having resumed, the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. STAMP DUTIES BILL.] The order of the day having been read for the House to resolve itself into a committee on the Stamp Duties Bill, The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that 969] he was desirous of dividing the Bill into two parts, in order that the one comprising those objects to which no objection existed, might as speedily as possible pass into a law. With respect to the other, he should merely move that the blanks. be filled up, with a view to its future recommitment. On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was ordered to be an instruction to the Committee to divide the Bill into two parts. He then moved, that the Speaker should leave the chair. Mr. Grenfell expressed the satisfaction which he felt at the adoption by his right hon. friend, of the principle with respect to the Bank compensation for stamps that had been pointed out to him in the first instance, although he differed from him as to the application of that principle, He recommended that the average should be taken, not of the last three years, but of the last twelvemonth. He observed, that in consequence of the oversight on this subject of his right hon. friend's predecessors, the public had lost, and the Bank of England had gained, many hundreds of thousands of pounds. The Chancellor of the Exchequer defended the mode in which he proposed to apply the principle adverted to by his hon. friend. The compensation which the Bank would pay at present would be 87,000l.: being an increase by the present Bill of 45,000l., a sum much exceeding that which the Bank would have to pay if the new duties were actually imposed on their paper. He maintained, that to take the average of three years, was preferable to taking the average of the last twelvemonth only. It was his intention to propose that the operation of the measure, as it affected the Bank, should be co-existent with the restriction on their payments in specie. Mr. Mellish said, that all the merit of the arrangement with the Bank was not due to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Grenfell), because that arrangement was founded on the consent of the Bank itself. The year 1814 was one in which the expenditure had been very great, which was the cause of the increased issues of the Bank in that year; it would be therefore unfair to take the average of that year as a scale for the amount of duties. Mr. Bankes bore testimony to the merit of Mr. Grenfell, as the gentleman to whom this arrangement was owing. He thought no indulgence was due to the Bank, as it had derived great profit from the measures adopted by Parliament; and Mr. Forbes thought the Bank should be The Bill went through a Committee. The House having resumed, on the question that the Report be received, Mr. Grenfell said, that when the Bill was again referred to a committee, he should propose a clause to carry into effect his ideas of the proper arrangement to be made with the Bank. Mr. Forbes said a few words in support of the proposition of Mr. Grenfell. Mr. C. Smith observed, that the Bank should always be regarded by the House with a favourable eye, for having afforded great assistance to the public, as well as for having been a main support of our commerce in the late war. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that he considered the public faith so far pledged to the Bank, that a revision of the present engagements with them could not take place without their consent. He wished to suggest that consideration to the hon. gentleman, at the same time pledging himself to reconsider the subject. Mr. Wynn was of opinion the public faith was not pledged to the Bank, any more than to individuals who compounded for the dog duty as packs of hounds. He suggested that the duty should be taken off the patents of sheriffs, which only produced 2,000l. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he would take that subject into consideration. The office of sheriff was certainly one which, neither on account of its profit or pleasure, was a fair subject of taxation. Mr. Butterworth wished to suggest the propriety of some regulation as to the percentage on wills and administrations. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that after an examination of the subject, he was convinced of the impracticability of any arrangement. The Report was then brought up, and ordered to be taken into further conside ration on Monday. HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, June 23. THANKS TO THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON, PRINCE BLUCHER, AND THE ALLIED ARMIES.] The order of the day for summoning their lordships being read, Earl Bathurst rose, pursuant to the notice which he had given, to move the Thanks of the House to the duke of WelJington, and the Army under his command, for those transcendant exertions which led to the victory of the 18th of this month. He was aware that their lordships must be eager to discharge the debt of gratitude to the duke of Wellington, who had now so gloriously opened the campaign, and relieved them from the anxiety which all must have felt for some time past. How ever sanguine any of them might have been as to the final result, yet there were none who must not have experienced the utmost anxiety with respect to the turn which the campaign might take at the commencement. That campaign was begun by Buonaparté himself. He had not, for this time at least, to blame the elements: He had not to accuse the seasons, nor the defection of those from whom he expected support. He could not say that he was obliged to commence the battle by those to whose measures he was compelled to yield, contrary to his own better judgment. It was completely his own act and choice. He had the choice of the time, of the place, and of the adversary with whom he might be desirous to contend. Under these circumstances, he had begun the battle, and he had failed. His attacks were repulsed; the order was reversed-he was attacked in his turn. His boasted genius shrunk under the ascendency of the mightier genius of him by whom he was opposed, and the result was the complete rout and overthrow of the French army. As most of the transactions which had taken place on this memorable day must be fresh in their lordships recollection, he did not feel himself called upon to enter much into detail but there was one point connected with the duke of Welligton, to which, on this occasion, it was not out of place to call their lordships attention. It had been observed, with reference to the campaigns in the Peninsula, that the duke of Wellington's system had been, not to attack, but to wait for the attack of the enemy, and take advantage of the situation of the enemy when they were repulsed; and many thought that he acted in this manner, from a prudent attention to that part of the military science in which he found himself strongest. The duke of Wellington had, indeed, acted on this principle, during a great part of the time when he was employed in the Peninsula: but this was owing to the necessity of contending with inferior numbers against the enemy. When, in the year 1813, he was enabled to commence operations with forces more nearly approaching to an equality, their lordships knew how the system was changed. The rapid advance to Vittoria, and the splendid victory which had been there acquired, and to which the present bore a strong resemblance, could never be forgotten. The duke of Wellington then proved that bis great genius was no less powerful in the militaly science of attack than it was in that of defence. In this battle both these attainments were displayed in the most remarkable manner. Before he came to the operations on the 18th, he was anxious to make one or two observations respecting those of the 16th. It was due to the brave men who fell on that day not to pass it over entirely in silence. On the evening of the 15th, the duke of Wellington received the intelligence that the Prussians had been attacked by the enemy, and the forces in the neighbour. hood were immediately ordered to advance. The Prussians were driven from their posts at Sambref with loss. On the 16th, general Picton's division, with the duke of Brunswick's corps, and the Nassau regi ment, were attacked at Genappe. The battle lasted the whole of the day. The Prussians were likewise attacked in their position, and Buonaparté claimed a victory over both: but it was clear that the Prussians maintained their position; and so far were they from being driven out, that they did not leave it till the attack for that day was concluded. Our troops likewise maintained their position; they passed the night there ready for a renewal of the contest next day. But the Prussians having lost 16,000 men on that occasion, from their refusing to take quarter, and a great proportion of their forces not having yet come into line, it was deemed by marshal prince Blucher most prodent to retire upon their reinforcements. In consequence of this resolution, they retreated, and the duke of Wellington also retired with his troops to Waterloo, maintaining his communication with the Prussians, so |