ments on which the opinion expressed in that letter was founded, to be altogether different from those recently brought before the House.

Mr. Tierney thought it possible that some of the five documents, said to be undoubtedly genuine, were among those on which the first opinion of the Duke of Wellington was founded.

Lord Castlereagh had not understood any of those documents to have been at that time submitted to him.

Mr. Tierney wished to know if the noble lord had seen the documents which were submitted to him?

Lord Castlereagh said, that documents on which no case could be founded he had considered to be very unimportant for him

to see.

Sir James Mackintosh, if he understood what had just fallen from the noble lord, thought some of the five documents might have been among those which were laid before the Duke of Wellington. Was the noble lord prepared to say that he knew what those documents were? If he could say this, and that none of the five were among them, it certainly would be very important.

Lord Castlereagh stated, that the three documents which were last found in the archives, were not discovered till after he had left Paris. Surprise had been expressed at papers being thus found from time to time; but this had arisen, as he had been informed by the French Government, from the circumstances of the documents being very numerous in the archives, and consequently consuming much time in the examination. All were in the possession of the Government in January last, though from the length of time taken up by the search, they could not be discovered at that period.

Mr. Horner said, the noble lord would do him the justice to acknowledge, that on the night when these documents were first brought forward, he had doubted their authenticity, without waiting for the statement that might be put forth from the other side of the water. It had particularly struck him, that it was highly improbable the letter dated from Nangis should be found at Paris.

Lord Castlereagh certainly admitted that the hon. and learned gentleman had expressed a doubt on the subject; but at the same time it had appeared to him, that an impression was made upon his mind, as well as on the House in general,

that there was internal evidence of the letters being genuine. There was, indeed, that in the documents in question, that he must confess, had they come to him in a less satisfactory manner than on the authority of the minister of a crowned head, his suspicion would not have been so much alive as it would on many occa

sions.

Mr. Horner said, it was clear from what had recently transpired, that they both were right as to the internal evidence which some of the letters bore of coming from the pen to which they were ascribed.

The question was then put, and the motion agreed to.

EAST INDIA SHIPS REGISTRY BILL.] On the order of the day, that the Bill to make further regulations for the registry of ships built in India be read a second time,

Mr. Marryat moved, that counsel be heard against the Bill on the part of the persons who had petitioned to that effect.

The Speaker intimated that counsel could not be heard until the question of the second reading was disposed of; it would then be competent to introduce them if the House thought proper preparatory to the committal of the Act.

Sir C. Monck trusted, that the second reading did not identify those with the principle of the Bill, who sought to hear counsel against it at the bar.

Mr. Alderman Atkins expressed his anxiety that counsel should be heard before the principle was acknowledged.

Mr. Wallace said, it would be competent for the House to enter into a full discussion upon the merits of the measure when it was about to be committed.

Sir C. Monk trusted, that the question would still be open for general discussion after the second reading.

Mr. Wallace replied in the affirmative. Mr. Marryat urged the number of the petitioners and the importance of their complaint, as sufficient grounds for their being heard by counsel.

Mr. Alderman Atkins suggested, that some regulations might be entered into which would obviate the grievances of which the petitioners complained.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer intimated, that the object at which the hon. alderman aimed, was attainable in the committee; where the regulations could be either wholly opposed or modified.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer objected to the motion. It was known to the House, that a committee had been sitting upon this subject from April to July during the last session. Counsel were heard in that committee, and every argument which could be adduced was then laid before them on the part of the petitioners. After an investigation so general as that to which he alluded, it would be a a waste of time, as well of money, for the parties to countenance a further renewal of topics which had grown familiar by their repetition to almost every member of the House.

Mr. Marryat repeated the importance of the subject, in justification of the motion he had made. In different private esta blishments on the Thames, three or four thousand shippers, and an equal number of other artificers, had been employed. At present there was not a single ship building in those places; nor was it likely there would be one, if this Bill passed. Under such circumstances, he trusted the indulgence of the House would allow the petitioners to be heard by their counsel at the bar.

Mr. Sturges Bourne said, it was without example to call upon the House for a further hearing, after that which had already taken place. On the subject volumes of evidence had been transmitted to him, and he supposed other members were equally put in possession of its merits. It was idle to say, that any new light could be thrown upon the case.

A division then took place, when the numbers were: For calling in counsel, 13; Against it, 33.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, May 22.

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RELATING TO FRANCE.] The Earl of Liverpool presented to the House a Message from the Prince Regent. The Message [for which see the proceedings of the Commons] was read by lord Ellenborough, who sat on the woolsack, and for the time acted for the Lord Chancellor, who was indisposed. The earl of Liverpool moved

Earl Grey did not rise to state objections at any length to the proposition which the noble earl had just made to their lordships. He still, however, notwithstanding all he had heard or seen on the subject, remained of opinion that before they were called upon to concur in an Address, founded on a treaty purporting to be made in support of certain stipulations and arrangements, they ought to know what those stipulations and arrangements were. This at present they did not know; and they were placed in this awkward predicament, that they must thus incidentally pledge the faith of the House to the approval and support of arrangements and stipulations of which they could know nothing. That, however, was not the point to which he now wished to call their lordships attention. He rose for the purpose of requesting the noble earl opposite to state precisely in what situation the country stood. Were we actually at war, or were we not? and in what light, with reference to the subject of war or peace, was the Message and the Address about to be moved in consequence to be regarded? He trusted the noble earl would not feel it inconsistent with his duty to give the desired explanation upon that head.

The Earl of Liverpool said, that he was just on the point of presenting the treaties and other papers connected with this subject, when the noble earl spoke [his lordship then handed them in], and from these, he trusted, would be derived all the requisite information as to those points which they would be called upon to consider to-morrow: with respect to the matters touched upon by the noble earl who had just spoken, he did not conceive that the House, by the Address which he should propose, would be at all pledged to the approval or support of the stipulations and arrangements to which the noble earl referred; for the question, whether their lordships would concur in such measures as it might be necessary to adopt against the common enemy, and a system proved by experience to be incompatible with the peace and independence of nations, was entirely distinct from the question, whether their lordships should approve or not of these arrangements and stipulations. He did not conceive, therefore, that the House would be at all pre-judged

in that respect by agreeing to the Address which he proposed to-morrow to submit for their consideration. With regard to the question, in what situation was the country placed, were we at peace, or were we actually at war? he was perfectly ready to give the noble earl and their lordships such an explanation on that head as, he trusted, would be found satisfactory. If the noble earl wished to know whether hostilities had really commenced, that is, whether letters of marque had been issued and ships captured, or any blow had been actually struck, he had to answer, that in that sense hostilities had not yet actually commenced: but he should deceive the noble earl, and deceive the House, if he were not distinctly to avow, that this Message was brought down with a view to the commencement of hostilities against the system mentioned in the Message, as soon as it should be found expedient to do so. He was aware that the expediency of beginning the war at an earlier or later period might depend upon various circumstances; but as to the nature and object of the Message, it was certainly to be regarded as a war message; and in concurring in the Address which he should have the honour to propose tomorrow, their lordships would be understood to concur in the propriety of commencing hostilities in concert with our Allies against the system to which he had adverted, as soon as, in point of expediency, it might be judged proper to begin the war. This was undoubtedly the nature and purport of the Message, and he wished it to be so understood.

Earl Grey asked whether the treaty had been ratified by Austria.

The Earl of Liverpool replied, that it was not as yet ratified by that power; that the ratification had not yet arrived, but was every day expected. The noble earl would find, however, in one of the papers now laid on the table enough to show, that there could be no doubt as to the intention of Austria to ratify the Treaty.

The motion was then agreed to.

PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONGRESS AT VIENNA.] The Marquis of Buckingham rose, pursuant to notice, to move an Address to the Prince Regent, praying that he would be graciously pleased to lay on the table copies of the stipulations and arrangements made at the Congress at Vienna, and mentioned in the Treaty of

the 25th of March, as stipulations and arrangements which it was the object of the Allies, in the approaching contest with the present ruler of France, to support. In bringing forward this motion, it would be unnecessary for him to trouble their lordships at any length, because the grounds and propriety of his motion might be explained in a very few words. His motion rested upon these words in the 1st article of the Treaty of the 25th of March: "The High Contracting Parties solemnly engage to unite the resources of their respective states for the purpose of maintaining entire the conditions of the Treaty of Peace concluded at Paris, the 30th of May, 1814, as also the stipulations determined upon and signed at the Congress of Vienna, &c." The object, then, of the parties to this alliance for the purposes mentioned in the Treaty was to maintain entire the stipulations determined upon and signed" at the Congress of Vienna. When, therefore, their lordships were called upon to concur in the measures necessary to give effect to treaty having for its object the maintenance of these stipulations, they ought certainly to know what these stipulations were. The stipulations in question were said to be concluded, to be determined upon, and signed; and if ratified, they were in a state fit to be produced, and certainly ought to be produced, and approved by their lordships before they pledged themselves to maintain them. If they were not reduced into the form of a treaty, and were not ratified, and not in a state fit to be produced, then they ought not to have been mentioned in this Treaty at all. When their lordships were thus called upon by a side-wind, as it were, to approve of these stipulations, surely it was not too much to ask that the substance of them should be communicated, or some explanation given which would at least afford some foundation for this method of proceeding. This, then, was the ground of his motion. In the predicament in which the House was placed, it was hardly possible for them to declare their approbation of the Treaty of the 25th of March, and the objects for which it was entered into, without at the same time pledging themselves to the approval of stipulations and arrangements of which they did not, and could not, regularly know any thing. He could, therefore, say nothing with respect to them. Admit that they were the most wise, the most politic, the most

which the House was placed, it was not too much to expect that some explanation as to those arrangements, some statement of the general nature of the stipulations, should be given, before they were thus, by implication at least, called upon to approve of them. Still, however, if it was to be understood on all hands that their lordships, by a concurrence in the Address, were not to be understood as at all pledg. ing themselves on the subject of those stipulations and arrrangements, he was disposed not to press his motion: with this understanding, that no such pledge was to be called for, or was considered to be given either directly or indirectly, he should, with their lordships leave, with draw it.

Earl Grey said, he must confess he was still very little satisfied, with the explanation given by the noble earl on the subject of his noble friend's motion. If the stipulations and arrangements in question were not in a state fit to be produced-if they were not regularly ratified so as to bring them in the regular course to the notice of their lordships-why were they inserted in the present Treaty at all? As matters now stood, when they came to morrow to discuss and decide upon a question, the perilous magnitude of which he almost trembled to think upon, it would hardly be possible not at the same time to take into consideration the subject of those arrangements and stipulations which were mentioned as a constituent part and object of the present Treaty; and though it was stated that they were not regularly ratified and not in a state fit to be produced so as to enable their lordships to examine and decide upon them, yet as they were mentioned generally in the Treaty of the 25th of March, their lordships would be called upon indirectly to approve of them, though it was admitted that they could know nothing of them. But there was another most important view in which the information now required was essentially necessary. The noble earl had stated, that the arrangements had no connexion with, and would not at all affect the question to be submitted for consideration to-morrow: But might they not affect the question as to the expediency of commencing hostilities? Might they not, to a fearful extent, affect the chances of success? If those arrangements and stipulations were in themselves just and equitable, and agreeable to those states whom they more especially affected, and

satisfactory to the nations of Europe in general, would not this be a most material consideration, when they came to discuss the proposed Address, with a view to the chances of success, and the consequent expediency of thus embarking in a new war? The prospect of success must materially depend upon the cordial concur rence and support of all the Powers who were to engage in so perilous an undertaking and was it not fitting, therefore, that their lordships should know something now of the nature, extent, and principle of those arrangements, which might, perhaps, bear so directly and powerfully upon the strength and efficiency of the means by which it was proposed to accomplish the object which now distinctly appeared to be in view? Was it not of essential consequence, when their lordships were to be called upon to concur in the propriety of entering into a new war, that they should know whether those arrangements were such as to inspire general confi lence, and give strength and energy to their cause and their measures; or whether they were such as would form a source of disunion, apathy, and weakness? How could their lordships know at present, whether the stipulations mentioned in the Treaty were such as promised cordial co-operation and success, or such as por tended division and failure? And yet this was a question of the first importance in considering the expediency of commenc ing hostilities. There was another subject, too, with respect to which it was proper for their lordships to have some informa tion before they came to discuss the question of to-morrow, and which he would advert to, before he sat down, that he might not again be under the necessity of addressing their lordships at this time. He had on their last day of meeting called their lordships attention to that part of the Treaty which provided that Louis the 18th should be invited to accede to it, and he had asked, whether there was any formal act of accession; and if there was, he had stated that, in his opinion, it ought to be produced. He now again contended that some information on that bead ought to be laid before their lordships, as that information might be of great importance in pointing out to the House the principle upon which they were proceeding. The production of this information he now considered as the more material on account of what he had seen in one of the papers this day. He had there read a