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Armies, and the fuperiority of our Fleets,-the Proteftant Succeffion, the Bill of Rights, and the whole fabric of our Conftitution. Do they pretend they ask you to give little, when they ask you to furrender no more than all the fecurities for your Liberty? What have you more to give?→→ What would afterwards remain to you worth preferving? (Hear! Hear! Hear! from the Minifierial Benches.) Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Fox) has defired us to look at the example of other countries, for the employment of Protestant Minifters and Generals under Popish Governments; and he refers us to the cafes of Sully and Neckar under that of France. But neither of those men, who were Proteftants, acknowledged any allegiance to a foreign power-the Catholics do. Befides, the Crown of France was not bound by any oath fimilar to that by which the Crown of England is bound in this refpect; and therefore the two cafes are wholly diffimilar. Was the Honourable Gentleman serious when he referred us to the cafe of Venice? Does he think we will affimilate with a nation embarraffed by conflicting parties and polemics,-whofe Government was a mixture of all Religions; and which, though once formidable in the scale of nations, is now loft to the world? I could with that the Honourable Gentleman who brought forward this queftion, and many of the friends who have fupported him in urging forward the measure, would pay a visit to Ireland, and stay there a few months. They would then be witnetles to the feelings of the honeft loyal Proteftants, and would fee that they were not wanting in loyalty and attachment, and that they deserve the protection of Government and the Le giflature alfo, against any further claims of the Catholics. I conceive, Sir, there is much danger in this question. I consider it as tending to break down the pale of the Crown and the barriers of the Conftitution; and as this is the first attempt, I think we fhould keep in view the old adage, Principiis obfta, and immediately give the Catholics to understand that we cannot grant the prayer of their Petition; and, therefore, will not deceive them by holding out any fallacious hopes on a subject so truly important and interesting to the whole Empire.'

Mr. LEE faid a few words in explanation.

.-"Sir,

Mr. G. PONSONBY." Sir, having long been acquainted with the great abilities of the Right Hon. Gentleman who has juft fat down, I might, perhaps, defpair of encountering him fuccessfully, if I had not previously received the affiftance of one who is altogether as able as the Right Hon. Gentleman, and whom I fhall always highly refpect-it is the Right Hon. Gentleman himself: (a general laugh) for I think I can clearly

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fhow

fhow that one half of the Right Hon. Gentleman's fpeech has incontrovertibly answered the other. He has told us of the victories of Lord Nelfon and Lord Hutchinfon in Egypt, gained by the efforts and affiftance of Irishmen, from which he draws a conclufive proof of the loyalty of the lower orders of the Catholics; and being alfo convinced of the loyalty of the higher orders of that body, he is determined to reward it, by refufing the prayer of their petition. (4 loud laugh, and a cry of Hear! hear! hear!) He has alfo informed us what is the Proteftant Constitution-that it is a Proteftant King, Proteftant Lords, and Proteftant Commons-and has moft emphatically and feelingly pointed out to us the dangers of a Proteftant King furrounded by Catholic Counsel lors. But pray, Sir, who is to effect that? The answer is obvious. This very Proteftant King him.felf. It is His Majefty, who, of his own free will, is to choose those Counfellors, who are to introduce the paramount authority of the Pope! Why, Sir, if His Majefty fhould unfortunately be furrounded by Counsellors of fuch a description, and they fhould endeavour to intrigue for fuch a purpose, would it not be the very firft act of His Majefty to difmifs from his Councils fuch wicked advifers?The Right Hon. Gentleman feems to be in fear for the fafety of the Hanoverian Succeffion. Who, Sir, is to compel any Prince of the House of Hanover to furround himself with Catholic advisers and á Catholic Council? It must be himself alone who can do this and if ever a Prince could be found, who would fo far attempt to deftroy the high trust repofed in him, by choofing advifers who fhould endeavour to fubvert the Con ftitution, or to change the nature of the Government in Church and State, I believe there can be no doubt but in this House there would be found many who would take a pride in moving to punish fuch advifers. The Right Hon. Gentleman fays, that if you grant the prayer of this Petition, they will not be contented; in proof of which he adduces the various conceffions heretofore made to the Catholics; he fays, the affertion made by an Honourable Gentleman,

that it was little for us to grant, but much for them to receive,' ought to be inverted; and he tells us also, that if we give them all we have, which is now but little, with that little they will overturn the Constitution and the Government in Church and State. The Right Honourable Gentleman tells us that if fifty or fixty Catholics obtain feats in Parlia ment, there will be much danger. In what that danger is to confift I am at a lofs to discover. But how are thefe fifty or fixty to obtain feats in Parliament? What is to become of the Proteftant gentry? What is to become of their te

nantry?

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pantry? Who are the perfons that are to return thofe Ca tholics? The fear of it is most futile; for my own part, really believe there would not be ten Catholics returned in as many years. The Right Honourable Gentleman allows, however, that if even one hundred Catholics fhould obtain feats in this Houfe, their efforts would be nugatory, or of very little avail against the other five hundred and fifty-eight. But, finding they have no weight or influence equal to what they expected, they become difcontented here too-and what do they do? The Right Honourable Gentleman, by a peculiar kind of logic, fhows that they will diffolve the Union. After having used their talents, their unanimity, and adherence to each other, without any avail, they contrive to diffolve the Union in fpite of the five hundred and fifty-eight, and fend themselves back to Ireland, there to form a Popish Parliament. (A loud laugh, and cry of Hear! hear! hear!) There is fomething ridiculous-I beg par don, Sir, for using that word-I mean not the flightest dif refpect to any Gentleman more especially the Right Honourable Gentleman to whofe argument I am particularly alluding, and for whofe perfonal character I entertain the highest refpect and efteem-but I cannot help saying there is fomething not only ridiculous, but contemptible, to hear Gentlemen argue that there's any actual danger to the Conftitution or the Government from admitting a few Catholics to have feats in Parliament. I have, Sir, however, heard arguments ufed in this Houfe which have made on my mind a moft deep impreffion, and from which one would be led to think that fome men were fent here only to circulate calumnies againft, and to draw the most odious pictures of the character of our common country. I have heard it faid, Sir, that the mafs of the Irish people are fo blood-thirsty, ignorant, and ferocious, and this is applied to the lower orders in particular, that no Proteftant would be fafe in living amongst them. I have heard as much faid in another place, but I did not feel it with fo much pain and indignation there as I did with fhame here. I cannot but feel forry to hear fuch a character given to a body of people, who, under fo many difadvantages as they have had to contend with, are, in my opinion, the very reverfe, in every refpect, of what they have been thus falfely defcribed. There never was fo foul a mifrepresentation of the Irish character; and I think one of the strongest proofs of this is, that those who have given this character have before and will again return to Ireland, and walk in the most perfect fecurity in every part of it; and I defy any perfon living to prove a fingle instance in which the people who have been thus degradingly tra

duced

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duced have ever expreffed the least personal refentment, or inflicted any perfonal vengeance on them. A Right Hon, and Learned Gentleman (the Attorney General) faid yesterday, that if he had been in His Majefty's Councils at the time, he would have objected to the elective franchise being granted to the Catholics, and alfo to the establishment of the College of Maynooth. This latter objection, I own, ftruck me most forcibly. What would the Learned Gentleman do with the Catholics? Would he have them brought up in the groffeft ignorance? Would he permit them no place of education, by which they might be rendered useful members of fociety, and good and loyal fubjects? or would he have them fent out of the country to be educated in the feminaries of that Pope, of whofe principles he has fo great a dread, and to whofe power he thinks it neceflary to oppose such strong and formidable barriers? I am heartily glad, Sir, the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman did not form a part of His Majefty's Councils at the period when those falutary measures took place, and I fincerely and devoutly hope he never will be confulted on any future occafion of a fimilar kind. So much having been faid, Sir, of the danger of a Proteftant King being furrounded with Catholic advisers, I would wish to fuppofe an inftance which may, perhaps, place the fubject in a fomewhat different point of view. I will fuppofe there fhould be a gentleman born and educated as a Catholic, who fhould be poffeffed of very fuperior talents and endowments; that he was an excellent fcholar; a good historian; a great financier; an accomplished gentleman; and a complete ftatefman; and that a Proteftant King, understanding all this, fhould choose to employ him,—would it not be an act of folly or madness, or both, in this man, after the King had thus taken him into his confidence, if he fhould advise his Sovereign to adopt any measure that might tend to overturn the Conftitution, or the State? It would moft unquestionably; and fuch an advifer could not poffibly efcape being brought to condign punishment for his attempt. It would be the fame if there were more Catholics in the Council; and it is ridiculous to fuppofe that they would forfeit the confidence of their King, and draw on their heads the hand of vengeance and punishment, more than Protestants would. But it feems, Sir, in the opinions of fome Honourable Gentlemen, that Catholics are unlike all other men; that they are not to be believed on their oaths. Other Diffenters of va rious claffes may be believed on their oaths, but a Catholic never; like the lover, if he fwears, he'll certainly deceive.' The Right Honourable Gentleman who spoke last allows that many of thofe who have figned the Petition, he knows

to be men of worth.' Yet the idea of a Catholic not being to be believed on his oath, can furely form no part in the character of a man of worth-nor can any man ever be entitled to that character, of whom such an idea can be feriously entertained. An objection has been urged against this Petition, on the ground of its not being figned by any of the Catholic Clergy. I believe the true reafon to be thisthe Catholics wifhed to have this measure understood, as it is really meant, a refpectful Petition for a civil right, unconnected with their religious tenets; and therefore it was not figned by the Clergy, because it was confidered as an act relating folely to the laity of that perfuafion. I have a book/ in my pocket, Sir, out of which I will beg the leave of the House to read a few fhort extracts. I am aware that it is not the most agreeable thing to trefpafs on the patience of the House, by reading books to them; but there have been fo many grofs mifreprefentations circulated against the tenets of the Catholics, in order to raise prejudices against this cafe, that I must entreat your indulgence. It is, Sir, a Roman Catholic Prayer Book, which the Clergy put into the hand of their flock, and out of which they perform their devotions: (Here Mr. Ponsonby read a renunciation of the Catholics, which went to fhow, that they do not think the POPE infal lible, cr that they are or can be difpenfed by any one, for any act of criminality, or breach of the laws of morality. Alfo, an oath, which fays, in express terms, that they do not believe in the infallibility of the POPE, and that they owe allegiance to the King, under whofe Government they live; that the POPE cannot give them difpenfation from that allegiance; but they are bound to fight for and protect their King and his Government against all enemies, even though the POPE himself fhould enter the kingdom at the head of an invading army.) Mr. Ponfonby continued-"If thefe, Sir, are not fatisfactory renunciations and abjurations of all thofe abfurd tenets which have been attributed to thefe people, then, I think, no fuch can be framed. I believe there is not a parish priest in Ireland who has not taken this oath, and God forbid they fhould think they were not bound to perform and ftrictly adhere to it! But, Sir, if this dreadful character of the Catholics were true, I think the Proteftants in Ireland must be the ftrangeft fet of beings. that ever were formed. There are, Sir, at this very moment, according to the articles of the Union, a certain number of noblemen and gentlemen who come over to this country to attend their duty in Parliament; there are, perhaps, fomewhere about one hundred, and thefe, moft of them, leave their property, their children, and even in fome cafes their wives, under the care and protection of Catholic fervants; ' and if these were the wretches which fome perfons defcribe

the