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or however in fact they may actually observe them. This they must feel in a more fenfible manner, in as much as there is an exprefs claufe in the Marriage Act, for exempting Jeus and Quakers, who have peculiar ceremonies of their own, from its operation. The mischief, however, of this ftate of things, it is obvious, does not rest with the Catholics, but is matter of high concern to the general cause of morality; in a word, it conftantly occafions much private mifery, and frequently much public fcandal. On thefe grounds, Sir, I fhall moft confcientioufly vote for the motion of my Honourable Friend, and I trust that the decifion of the Houfe will be fuch as will be worthy of its liberality, and honourable to the character of the Parliament and of this Country.

MR. FORSTER.-Sir, I fhould not trouble the House even for the few minutes I feel it neceffary to trespass on their attention, did I not feel that my filence on the present occafion would be inconfiftent with the part I have taken on a former occafion, and in another place (the Irish Parliament). From what has been ftated by many Members who have spoken in the fupport of this motion, and also by the Honourable Member who has fpoken laft, many perfons will be led to think that there are still exifting many fevere laws against the Catholics of Ireland.-Will the House allow me to state what those laws are? Do not the Catholics of Ireland poffefs as free liberty for the acquifition, the enjoyment, and the difpofal of property; do they not enjoy as fully their perfonal fecurity, and the exercife of their religion, as any of His Majefty's Proteftant subjects? Are they not as fully entitled to civil liberty as any other description of His Majefty's subjects? What do they defire by this Petition? Not civil liberty-not protection to property-not the free exercife of religion ;all those they have: but they defire political power:-this is all that remains for you to bestow; of all the reft they are in complete poffeffion: and it is acknowledged by thofe who have brought forward and supported this Petition, that political power is now their only object; in every thing else they are as free and independent as any other clafs of their fellow fubjects. (No! No! No! from the Benches of Oppofition.) If I am thought wrong, I am ready to go through the whole catalogue of civil claims, and to prove they are already granted. You are now defired to judge of the future by the past, and upon this ground you ought to grant them political power :-and what is the inducement? Theytell you, that if you coincide with their propofitions you will incorporate their collective ftrength with yours. That the population of your formidable enemy amounts to thirty-fix millions, oppofed to yours which is only fifteen millions; and

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that by refusing their claims you deprive yourself of one-fifth of the national vigour. Condescend but to grant their demands, and it will be inftantly reftored. Thefe are the kind of reafons urged by the Honourable Members who have fo eloquently brought forward and fupported this motion. Why, Sir, I do fay thofe men are already attached to your Government by their zeal and loyalty, and that they have hitherto fought for the country without granting those claims. Are we not told that the Irish compofed a principal and honourable part of the army under Lord Hutchinfon, by which Egypt was vanquished? Is it not alfo proclaimed to the glory of that people, the gallant Nelfon was greatly indebted to their valour in the hour of danger, for the conqueft he obtained over the fleet of the enemy on the coaft of that country? Is not the British army fupplied with fome of its moft courageous recruits from the fame fource? Have not the militia behaved well? And are we now to be told that we are deprived, by withholding fuch conceffions, of the affistance of the Irish Catholics, to repel the dangers to which the Empire is expofed, and that we are to give away the Conftitution in order to obtain that which we have already? Then, Sir, it is urged that the loyalty of the Catholics to the Crown is not unfettered and unconditional but qualified, on the ftipulation that you must grant them now what they had not before. When asked for such conceffion, with whom is it they tell you to ftipulate? Is it with the great mafs of the Irish Catholics? Can the meafure required benefit that mafs? Do the great mafs know what the term emancipation means? I flate the fact when I fay that the Irish common people do not know what the phrafe means. Inquire of them, and fome will tell you it means freedom from rents; others, that it is freedom from tythes; others, that it is exemption from taxes ;-and all will give accounts of it palpably contradi&tory:-but that it is merely to give places and power to those of higher rank, not one in a thousand of them ever dreams of it. So that it is not the great mafs of the Catholics that feek thofe objects; for they cannot want what they do not comprehend. Is it then the higher orders, whofe loyalty you are called on to conciliate? Will they thank thofe gentlemen who pay them fo bad a compliment, as to fay that their loyalty depends upon the condition of granting them political power? I will not believe it; because I have the honour to know perfonally and intimately. many gentlemen of that perfuafion, and feveral of thofe whofe names are figned to that Petition; and I know them to be men of as loyal character, as good fubjects, as virtuous in private as independent in public life, and as ready to come forward

forward in the defence of their King and Country as any other defcription of His Majefty's fubjects. (Hear! Hear! Hear! from the Oppofition Benches.) And I am fure they would not thank thofe who pretend to be their friends, and who fay on their parts that their loyalty is to be the price for granting this measure. (Hear! Hear! Hear! from the Treafury Side of the Houfe.) If you come now to confider what it is that can be granted, the queftion is fairly this: Will you or will you not grant political power? Can you grant it? I fay No. It is not in your power. You must first look to England. The English Catholics ftand in a fituation by no means fo favourable as thofe of Ireland.The English Catholics cannot vote at elections; the Irish can. The Irish have many privileges which the English Catholics have not. Do you mean to grant to the Irish feats in this Houfe, and exclude the English? This cannot be. You must first put the English on a footing with their Western Brethren, (Hear! Hear! Hear! from all fides of the House,) and then, if you open to all the Catholics of both countries the feats of this Houfe; where, I afk, is the fecurity for your Proteftant Church Eftablishment? Would it not be the groffeft infatuation to intruft men educated in such principles, to frame those laws for the protection of the Proteftant faith, which it is your bounden duty to provide? Do you allow fuch a wide distinction between Church and State? Who is it that frame those laws, that regulate the rights of the Established Clergy, and the establishments under which their dues are collected? Who is it that forms the laws under which tithes are paid? Are they not the Lords, fpiritual and temporal, and the Commons of England? And will you fill the Houfe with members inimical to the lawsinimical to your Hierarchy and Church Establishment, and who refufe to difavow that fupremacy in a foreign Potentate, which legally belongs only to their natural fovereign? Are these the men to whom you will intruft political power, and the first offices in the State? Let us judge of the future by the effects of what is paft. In 1778 fomething was given by the Irish Parliament; in 1782 much more was granted; and in 1793 the Catholics alked for much, and Parliament granted much more than they required. I thought Parlia ment went much too far: but let that point reft. But let Parliament now grant this, and they will fhortly find the Catholics will not even then be fatisfied. And indeed how are we to expe&t that men will be fatisfied when raised to offices of trust and feats in Parliament, while they are influenced by an active and difcontented Clergy, who will be equally anxious for ecclefiaftical power? Can we fuppofe

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the former will reft contented, without looking to the elevation of their own Clergy, and refifting the powers of the Church from the Proteftant Clergy, whofe advice they will not receive, from whofe profane inftructions they turn away in difguft? If once you grant the power now required to thofe men, rely upon it they will fpeedily come forward with new demands they will presently expect equality in your Church Eftablishment. They will not reft there, but, arguing on the fuperiority of their numbers, they will infift on making Popery the Established Religion of Ireland. Such is the natural and neceffary progrefs. Again, Parlia mentary Reform and Catholic Emancipation were the two watchwords, which always went together, and upon which were founded the late confpiracies, which ended in the Rebellion of Ireland: A loud clamour was raised, and the one would not be endured without the other. I know that I am walking on delicate ground, and if I advance too far, I trust gentlemen will allow me an opportunity of explaining the motives of my progrefs. 1 am far from cafting any cenfures upon the Petitioners; on the contrary, I have high perfonal refpect for many of the gentlemen who have brought this forward. But let me fuppofe the Catholics by the vote of this night to acquire feats in Parliament, and that they poffefs the abftract right contended for, which it is faid can only be withheld under the maxim➡ Salus populi fuprema lex-if you confer this right on forty or fifty or eighty of them, and that they begin to feel their inferiority in an affembly of fix hundred and fifty-eight members compofing this affembly, will they not feek to confolidate their party, and augment their ftrength by new political recruits? What will then be the refult? Will they not argue thus- The barrier is now broken down, we have our rights of fitting in Parliament acknowledged: our number is fmall, but our influence not small, but great, if united in Parliament with any party who will efpoufe our caufe. If they find themfelves unable to fucceed in this Parliament, they will fay nothing remains to give effect to this happy change, but to reftore the Irifh Parliament. Three hundred Catholic members elected by the popular majority in Ireland will refume the functions of the Irish Parliament. The Proteftant afcendency is gone under the Union Act, which deftroyed the Boroughs, for under that compact the Proteftant Boroughs were fuppreffed, and a compenfation of 1,400,0col. paid to Proteftant owners, and not one fhilling to Catholics : (loud laughter) the confequence will be that popular elections will prevail. From the fuperior numbers of Catholic electors the Parliament will neceffarily become Catholic,-and in

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fuch a cafe I leave gentlemen to judge how long the fecurity will continue for the Proteftant Eftablishment in Church and State, and the connexion between thefe countries. If this were the only objection I fhould think it quite fufficient: I feel the full force of thofe confequences to be apprehended from fuch a measure, and I tremble for the feparation of my native country from that connexion with England, deprived of which I am convinced fhe would be neither profperous nor happy.

"Conciliation has been talked of to the great mafs of the people of Ireland. But does any man who goes to Ireland fay that the people of that country are in general fo difaffected, that nothing can fecure their allegiance but the furrender of the Conftitution? While you are turning your attention to the claims of three millions of Catholics, are you to be wholly unmindful to the rights of one million of Proteftants, whom your ancestors encouraged to fettle in that country, to whom they and you have promised protection, who are dependent on you for the fecurity of their Property, their Liberty, and their Religion, and who, if you do not extend to them your protection, can have no fafety? Are you to take away from them that protection? Are you to deprive them of the bleffings of the Revolution, of the Hanoverian Succeffion, of the Illuftrious Houfe of Brunfwick, and of the only Guaranty for their Civil and Political Liberty? Is it in the nature of things that you can accede to a meafure which must carry in its confequences a train of privations and degradations to the loyal Proteftants of Ireland? What then will become of that Proteftant afcendency to which I have alluded, and which has been a favourite topic of complaint, and falfely called a Syftem of Oppreffion? What do I mean by Proteftant afcendency? Nothing more than a Proteftant King, Proteftant Lords, and Proteftant Commons. I know of none other beyond this. I have never claimed any other, and this, while I have a voice, I will claim for my country.

"Gentlemen have dwelt much upon the affertion, that what is now demanded by the Catholics is little for us to grant, and much for them to receive. I defire to reverse the pofition; for, in reality, what thev afk is much for us to give, and little for them to receive. They ask for admission to a few feats in Parliament, they afk for eligibility to thirty-feven places of power and truft. They afk us to give up that which they profefs would not much increase their advantages or their power; but we are to confer upon them that which is the fecurity for our Civil Liberty, that for which our forefathers bled, that on which refts the ftrength of our Armies,

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