Why, my Lords, the same argument may be urged against every species of appeal for the redress of grievances; and if it is to be admitted, we may as well close our doors against such appeals altogether. But I would be glad to know how Parliament deprives itself of the power and discretion to grant or refuse the prayer of this Petition by consenting to refer it to a Committee? But instead of refusing what the Catholics now ask, it is a policy imposed on us by necessity, to grant it and conciliate them by a measure that would unite and attach so large a portion of the Empire zealously for its common defence. It has been stated, against the Petitioners, that they wished to be relieved from a test which only binds them to declare they are not traitors ;but surely, my Lords, to call upon any people to say so of themselves, is, at least, paying them no great compliment. On the contrary, must it not be extremely hurtful to their feelings, as a particular sect, to be called on for a test demanded of no other? If all were equally obliged to the test, it would be felt to convey no particular insult to the Catholics. The Noble Lord who spoke last has deprecated the time at which the Petition is brought forward; and says, he will vote against it because he thinks it has no likelihood of success, though he approves its principle. My Lords, this is a species of reasoning and argument which I confess I do not understand; but, I trust, the vote of the House this night will convince the Noble Lord that he has been mistaken in that as well as in other sanguine expectations. Upon what ground the Noble Lord has made the assertion, I am at a loss to know, It surely cannot be forgotten that the same Right Honourable Gentleman who once retired from office, expressly because he could not carry the Catholic question in a certain exalted quarter, and declared he never would return to office until he could, is now again in power; and if this moment of war and difficulty be an unseasonable time for the measure, was not

the

the moment when that Right Honourable Gentleman formerly quitted his office, because he could not carry it, equally a moment of war and danger? Are not the enemies' fleets at sea? Is not Ireland threatened as much with invasion now as it was on the former occasion? and is not the measure, as peculiarly and forcibly as ever, called for at this moment, to conciliate the inhabitants of that country? I am not surprised, however, at the resistance to this measure given to the Noble Lord who succeeded that Right Hon. Gentleman in his high situation, and who went into office expressly, as he himself has declared, upon the condition of resisting all farther concessions to the Catholics. Oh! but, says the Noble Secretary of State, it would be the height of imprudence to consider their claims now, when the greatest part of Catholic Europe is under the influence or dominion of France! This, my Lords, is indeed a curious argument. So that, because a certain portion of those countries professing the Catholic religion are under the controul of France, you are to refuse his Majesty's Catholic subjects in Ireland the liberty they solicit. This indeed might be a good argument for ceding what they wish, and granting them the full benefit of the Constitution; but it is the worst of all bad arguments for withholding those benefits. It is always a mortifying grievance to the people of any country to find themselves excluded from any of the rights belonging to the constitution under which they live. The policy of King William was always to extend toleration; and one of his strongest reasons for lamenting the severities to which the Catholics were subjected was, that they tended to augment the power of Louis XIV. then the head of the Catholic body, a trict of which policy in our glorious Deliverer I will now illustrate from an historical work in my hand, (Bishop Burnet's History, from which the Noble Lord read a passage.) The conduct of our Government is directly the reverse. So far from giving to Catholics a real to

leration,

leration, the policy of our Ministers is to defeat the toleration allowed by law. But until some share in political power be added, the Catholics never can maintain what has been conceded to them, nor rise above the degradation in which they have been held. Now, my Lords, is precisely the time to shew the Catholics of Ireland, that they can expect nothing from Catholic powers so advantageous, so satisfactory as the liberality and justice of the British Legislature can bestow. This, my Lords, would effectually prevent them from lending an ear to any suggestions which Catholics, the enemies of this country, could propose to them. Besides, my Lords, it ought not to be forgotten, that the situa tion of the Catholics is the more irksome and disgusting, because they are held in an insulting inferiority by their own countrymen, a situation that must outrage their feelings infinitely more than subjection to strangers. It is time to put an end to this source of jealousy, and by admitting so important a part of the population of the empire to participate completely in the Constitution, to unite them sincerely in the interests of the country. In short, my Lords, if the laws against the Catholics are not repealed, it is impossible that things can remain long on the footing they now stand in Ireland. The history of that country, as well as of every other, clearly shew, that those Governments that will not concede must coerce; and, I ask, is it possible that during a struggle like this, while our most formidable enemy is so aggrandised, and menaces us at all points, that we can spare one part of the strength of the empire to keep another in subjection? That such must be the alternative, every one who looks at the state of Ireland and of Europe must perceive; and, my Lords, I now put it to the good sense, to the wisdom, to the sound policy of this House, whether such a wretched and dangerous course is to be preferred to the enlightened policywhich would heal all discontents, and leave the

whole

whole strength and resources of the empire disposeable against the common enemy. I shall now conclude, my Lords, apologizing for having taken up so much of the time of the House, and declaring, that I never, in the course of my public life, voted with greater pleasure, upon any occasion, than I do for the motion of the Noble Baron."

Earl CAMBDEN spoke in so low a tone, as not to be distinctly audible below the bar. The Noble Earl said, that during the time he had the honour of being placed at the head of the Irish Government, the actuating principle of that Government was to make every concession to the Catholics as might be deemed fairly and fully necessary to their happiness, the protection of their property, and the free exercise of their religion, consistently with the security of the Protestant Establishment. With this view, the question had undergone the fullest discussion in the Irish Parliament; and it was ascertained beyond the shadow of doubt, that the sense of that Parliament was most decidedly against any further concessions being made to the Catholics; and under all the circumstances of the case, as so fully stated by other Noble Lords who resisted this motion, he did not think it expedient to comply with the prayer of the Petition, but considered even the discussion of the question at such a juncture, highly impolitic.

The BISHOP of DURHAM.-" My Lords, the question has been so fully discussed, and many of the sentiments I entertain thereon so fully expressed by other Noble Lords who have preceded ine in this debate, that I shall feel it unnecessary to trouble your Lordships at any great length upon the subject. My Lords, we know that a very great majority of the population of Ireland are Catholics, and are now in the full possession of the elective franchise; and that if we acceded to the prayer of this Petition, the natural consequence would be, that the great majority of the representation of Ireland must very shortly be Catholic also. It is but fair to

suppose

It

Suppose the Catholics of Ireland would prefer representatives of their own religion, before those of ours, and will, on all occasions, give them the support of their numbers, to the exclusion of the Protestant candidates. But, my Lords, in whatever measures of liberality it may be desirable to indulge the Catholics, we must not forget that it is highly essential that we should preserve inviolable the Protestant Establishment in Church and State. Consistently with this principle, my Lords, it would be my wish to carry toleration towards, the Catholics to its utmost extent, and to act to them in all respects in that true spirit of Christian charity, so eminently characteristic of the religion we profess. is by toleration she has preserved that harmony amongst Protestants of every sect, the want of which has been often fatally experienced in other nations of Europe. Religious toleration is not only congenial with the spirit, but enjoined by the principles of the Church of England; but the safety of that Church is not to be put to risk by granting political power to so great a mass of people hostile to its establishment. On these grounds, my Lords, it was that I have been led maturely to consider whether we can consistently with perfect safety to Church and State, now grant what the Catholics ask? If I thought it were safe, I should be one of the last to resist the wishes of the Catholics. If this were a measure necessary to the comfort, the happiness, or the rational liberty of the great mass of the Catholics, I should feel great unwillingness to oppose them. But, my Lords, I am persuaded, that the proposition now before you, if conceded, would have no such tendency: its only operation would be to increase the political influence of the higher orders, and to extend the power of their Clergy, who already possess too much. I cannot, my Lords, accede to the policy, the justice, or the fairness of admitting the Catholics to those powers in the State, which their Petition claims, while they refuse to take

those