state, where they are suffered to exist. My Lords, the Catholics have repeatedly sworn that they bear no political allegiance to the Pope, and the best informed men of their community have disclaimed those odious doctrines so often charged upon their sect. This being the case, I cannot conceive upon what authority the Noble Secretary founds his as sertions. But if it be true, that Catholics are those dangerous beings they are represented to be, and that it is so unsafe for the State that they should possess any civil power, I wish to know why the Noble Secretary refuses the motion of my Noble Friend for going into the Committee, not to pass a law for granting further power to the Catholics, but to consult the expediency of repealing all those laws that have obtained in their favour during the present reign. The Noble Lord has argued, that concession to the Catholics has only served to stimulate new demands, that indulgence had served to render them rebellious, and that they have been peaceable only in proportion to the pressure of the penal laws. Why not act then upon this discovery-why not go into the Committee, for the purpose of consulting the propriety of re-enacting all those laws, of annulling all those measures of favour to the Catholics that have been thought to grace his Majesty's reign, and reduce them to that state in which they were found at its commencement? For, my Lords, if the reasoning of the Noble Secretary be good for any thing, it must necessarily go to that extent. My Lords, the Noble Secretary has laboured to prove, that the late rebellion in Ireland was a Catholic Rebellion, for the purpose of subverting the Protestant Religion, and establishing Popery on its ruins; but the proofs he has adduced directly contradict his assertion; for the Noble Secretary has acknowledged and proved that the leading conspirators in the late Rebellion, both Protestants and Catholics, totally denied any such object, that they were equally inimical to all, religious establishments. In fact, it is notorious, that the Rebellion was entirely

tirely for jacobinical purposes. Equalization of property and condition, were the objects held out to the multitude engaged in that Rebellion: democracy was its main object. In fact, my Lords, there has not been the shadow of proof that religion is the active spring to Rebellion amongst Catholics; and, therefore, I cannot see how Religion is to be pleaded as a sufficient cause to justify the perpetuation of constraints. The Noble Lord has asked, if you grant the prayer of this Petition, where are you to stop? And he directly argues, not until you have repealed the Act of Settlement. If the Noble Lord, seriously means this, I know not what argument to apply to such imbecillity. In my apprehension there exists not the slightest ground for such an idea. The Act of Settlement I rather think is brought now into question, not from any real fears, but merely for the purposes it serves to answer, namely, those of influencing timid or dubious minds by vain and groundless apprehensions. But, as my Noble Friend has argued, the real danger exists not in abolishing, but in continuing those invidious restrictions; for so long as such degrading disqualifications are continued against so great a majority of the people of Ireland, so long will the mortifying sense of them rankle in the bosoms of that people, and constantly furnish dangerous and designing agitators with a feasible pretext for stirring up dissentions, and disposing the lower orders especially, to tumult and insurrection. But, my Lords, I cannot think, from the experience we have had in the effects of past relaxations to the Catholics, that there really exists the smallest reason for continuing the remaining restrictions, unless it can be really proved that the discontinuance is dangerous to Church and State, and I have as yet heard no proof whatever to warrant such a conclusion. My Lords, the Noble Secretary has said, if you grant this you grant allTrue, my Lord; and if it is granted upon the same

ground that all the former indulgences to the Catho❤ lics have been granted, namely, their unshaken loyalty and attachment to the Constitution, I see no objection to it; nor do I, in any degree, participate in those fears expressed by the Noble Secretary for the fundamental laws of our Constitution, from such a measure. Does the Noble Secretary really mean to insinuate that it would really tend to a repeal of the Act of Settlement? If he does, he totally mistakes the principle of that Act, as well as of this measure; for most if not all the estates possessed at this day by the Catholics of Ireland, and certainly all the purchases made by them within the last twenty years, are actually held upon no other titles than those founded on the Act of Settlement; and it is hardly probable the Catholic gentlemen of Ireland would be desirous, if it was even in their power, to repeal an Act which is the security for their own possessions. I am convinced, my Lords, that so long as those restrictions continue, they will operate on the minds of the Catholics as a constant grievance, although the Noble Lord may think that the great mass of the lower orders will never think about the exclusion of their superiors from Parliament and places in the State. By your former relaxations you have, in my mind, wisely enabled the Roman Catholics to obtain opulence, and encouraged them to cultivate education, and to cherish the sanguine hope that the same loyalty and good demeanour which obtained for them past indulgence, would speedily procure for them all that remained but by the continuance of those restrictions longer, you cast a foul stigma upon them. You have already granted to the great mass of the lower orders the elective franchise and all those privileges and immunities appropriate to their situa-tion and rank; but you refuse to the Catholic Peer and gentleman, whose rank, education, and property, attach them to your Constitution and Government, and entitle them to your confidence, the

privileges and immunities appropriate to their situation. I have no doubt, my Lords, that the wisdom and sound policy of abrogating those restrictions will, ere long, force their way to adoption, notwithstanding the resistance they may at present experience. But I am sure that by granting the measure now, as a concession of liberal and generous policy, it would come with infinitely more grace and effect than at a future day, when it shall have the appearance of yielding to necessity, when the Catholics become more numerous, more wealthy, and more powerful. The Noble Secretary has said, that the time chosen to bring forward this measure is utterly improper; but his argument on this head seems to be particularly unfortunate. He has stated, that since the year 1801 a new order of things has sprung up in Europe: that an Atheistical Republic has reared its head in France, which, after various and dreadful changes, has terminated in the despotism of a tyrant, the implacable enemy of this country, who has found it necessary for his purpose to call religion to his aid, to coalesce with the Pope, and thereby obtained additional means of gaining to his views the Catholics of Ireland. But surely, my Lords, if from this new state of things in Europe, any additional danger threatens these kingdoms, or any effect is to be produced upon the minds of the Catholics of Ireland, this is precisely the time of all others to conciliate their affections, by casting away all symptoms of distrust and jealousy. The very ap prehension expressed by the Noble Secretary on this head, is, in my mind, the most convincing argument to prove that this is precisely the moment for us, by throwing aside our doubts and distrusts to cultivate the confidence of our Catholic fellow-subjects, and by so doing, unite and concentrate all the strength of these united Kingdoms against the menaced attacks of the common enemy. These, my Lords, are the reasons which sway my mind in fully agreeing with the motion of my Noble Friend. I

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fully agree with the Noble Secretary, in the inseparable union of Church and State, but I cannot think that union exposed to any risk from granting the prayer of this Petition."

Lord SIDMOUTH." My Lords, I am fully disposed to follow the recommendation of the Noble Baron who introduced this motion, and to discuss the important question before your Lordships with all the temper and moderation it so necessarily requires. Whatever sentiments I entertain on the subject, I will avow them plainly and frankly; and I will begin by saying, that though I am ready to go as far as any of your Lordships in whatever regards a sound and wise toleration, yet I am by no means prepared to go the extreme length proposed by the Noble Baron. I have listened to what fell from that Noble Baron on this occasion, with all the attention and respect due to whatever comes from him on any subject, and I heard him with the same pleasure I always have done; but it was a pleasure mingled with surprize and astonishment. When I recollect how greatly that Noble Lord has heretofore distinguished himself in combating doctrines which led to all the calamities under which a great portion of the people are actually suffering, and I fear will long suffer, it is not without excessive astonishment that I heard him this night take so opposite a course, and maintain doctrines, the direct tendency of which would be the introduction of all those innovating principles against which on former occasions he has so manfully and successfully struggled. In the year 1790, the Petition of the Dissenters for the repeal of the Test Act was opposed by that Noble Lord; but I cannot agree with him in resisting the minor proposition, and granting the greater.

"Before I enter upon this question, my Lords, I will take this opportunity of declaring my entire concurrence with my Noble Friend (the Secretary of State) in giving full credit to the Catholics for