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Catholics, is it not natural that they should distrust you? This has been my principal motive for bringing the Petition before the notice of your Lordships; and I must always, to the last moment of my life, remember with the liveliest gratitude, the attention your Lordships have been pleased to bestow me. My object is an union of parties, of sects, of hearts; but I ask you not to grant any thing to me as yet, for I am not prepared to declare what other healing and salutary measures, for many such there are, I should think we ought at present to adopt. Do not let us shut our eyes upon the state of Ireland, but embrace the first opportunity that has been presented to us, of considering the affairs of Ireland in a connected view. This I consider to be a most unexceptionable opportunity. Long have I sought this opportunity to bring forward the Petition, and finding that the Catholics began to grow impatient when nothing had been done towards redeeming that pledge which had been formerly given them, I thought it expedient to bring forward the measure at once. It has been said, that this is not a favourable season for presenting that Petition to Parliament; but I think this season, of all others, the most favourable. We have every external motive for union; we are menaced by foreign enemies; we should close our ranks, and present a firm phalanx to the foe. Let us grant this privilege to the Irish, not as an extorted right, but as a free boon. I feel myself highly honoured that the choice of the Irish Catholics has fallen upon me at so momentous a crisis; and proud shall I be if your Lordships shall conceive that I have properly executed the impor tant charge which they have committed to me.

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My Lords, I move your Lordships, that this House do now resolve into a Committee of the whole House to take this Petition into consideration."

Lord HAWKESBURY." My Lords, the speech which your Lordships have just heard, I am free to own, claims no ordinary share of attention, It is, from the nature of the subject, important; and it

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would be to insinuate what could not be deemed fair, to say, that, intrinsically, it is not important. Every thing wished to be conceded on the ground of the momentous nature of the question now in discussion before us, I am willing to concede: and so far, if undue heat have obtained, I do not feel that I ought to impute to the Noble Baron more than what does form the share of every advocate of a cause, denominated popular, will probably, in spite of him, incur. Yet, my Lords, it does become me to remark, that when the Noble Baron began his speech by recommending moderation, instead of that expectation which he occasioned, both in the beginning and conclusion of his speech, he appeared to me to wish for a species of investigation into which, were we disposed to enter, all sobriety of discussion, and impartiality of determination, would unavoidably be frustrated; and nothing but the greatest latitude of unconstrained remark would satisfy, in the discussion of the very important question agitated by the Noble Lord. Far from adhering to the profession of his opening, far from being moderate as the subject demands, far from conforming to the rules of legitimate investigation and enquiry, the Noble Baron has thought proper to mislead your judgment by the menace of the triumph of the cause of the Petitioners."

Lord GRENVILLE.-" My Lords, this is too much. I appeal to your Lordships; if I might, I would appeal to every honest man who hears me, whether the Noble Lord be in order; and, above all, whether he does not offend against the order of our proceedings. My Lords, I say the Noble Lord has been guilty of the grossest misrepresentation. Again, I appeal to the House, I appeal to every honest man, whether I have, in any one instance, had recourse to topics of the inflammatory nature, of those dwelt upon by the Noble Lord. I have not introduced subjects of dangerous tendency. I have urged no menace; I have spoken of no triumph, but that which proceeds from the operation of reason.

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have not dwelt on topics calculated to break in on the peace of the empire. On the contrary, I have shewn the wish of my heart to be to encourage and sanction no investigation or discussion not calculated, in my judgment, to promote the welfare of the State, and the ultimate tranquillity of the empire. I wish the Catholics unfettered, but not unconnected. Take off their chains of religious thraldom, and you will directly find that in all political views you gain subjects, and in every social view, you acquire friends."

Lord GRENVILLE had spoken with much animation.

Lord HAWKESBURY,-"I say, my Lords, that, to my mind, the Noble Baron did convey the impression which I have attempted, however feebly, to represent in words to your Lordships. I cannot be supposed to insinuate, that I have done any thing but collected the general spirit of the observations of the Noble Baron, which, if I have not faithfully developed, your Lordships will judge. The Noble Baron has talked of the triumph of the cause of the Petitioners. (A cry of Hear! Hear!) I am free to own that the Noble Baron talked of the triumph of the cause by the operation of reason; but I cannot well imagine how a cause is to triumph, unless reason be on the side of those who call in reason emphatically to their aid. A good cause is ever supported by reason. In a good cause you need not talk about the support of reason; for to such a cause you have it. But the Noble Lord talks of the support of reason to his cause, as if he distrusted the interference of reason in a cause so bad.

"However, my Lords, the Noble Baron tells us that he wishes this cause ultimately to triumph by reason-by the operation of reason. I am ready to meet the question upon that ground; and however it may be treated by the Noble Lord, or by others of his turn of thinking, who will follow him,

I know how to treat it on my part with temper, and conduct the enquiry with moderation.

"The Noble Lord has not thought proper to explain distinctly the object of his motion. He has left it to general consideration, and almost infinite details. The whole may be granted, or none granted; for if we consent to go into a committee, it would seem as if the utmost wishes of the Noble. Baron would readily be, in all other views, gratified.. But to what does the motion of the Noble Baron go? It goes not to any partial abrogation, not to any partial revision, not to any limited modification of the statutes existing, but to an entire repeal of all law, not only against Catholic, but which in any way operate in exclusion of other persuasions, of what denomination soever, from holding the very first offices in the State. I do not say that necessarily the proposition of the Noble Baron concludes that deduction, but his reasoning most unquestion ably does. The arguments of the Noble Baron have indeed no other effect.

"But whatever difference of opinion there might be indulged as to the present Petition, I certainly have deprecated the discussion now brought on, at the present moment, and in the present circum stances. No just care is bestowed on this great business by those who cannot distinguish what properly belongs to one moment from what strictly is the concern of another. However, I may disagree from some, or agree with others; however, I may not be of opinion that the claims of the Petitioners ought to be granted at any time, and others may think that they ought to be granted, but not granted now; I am free to say, that no efforts have been spared by me to prevent the question being brought forward; and the respectable Nobleman who is in the lieutenancy of Ireland, to prevent its being agitated in the present conjuncture. But as, after all that has been done to point out to the Petitioners the right line of their duty, they have thought proper to commit their

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interests to a party avowedly hostile to his Majesty's Government. I feel it to be my duty to myself, my country, to your Lordships, and to the Petitioners, to state what my opinion is of the Petition now before your Lordships for consideration. My Lords, my opinions are not hastily formed; I have considered this subject some years. The investigation of the question before us to-night has occupied my mind' for a very long period indeed; yet though my opinion is, that the present time is improper, it is not founded on the circumstance of the impropriety as to time, but on general merits. My objections apply to any time, however peculiarly distinguished, when the question is, or can, or could be, brought forward; and though well inclined to lend my sanction to rational reforms, I am not apprehensive, that' in opposing upon this question the weight of my dissent, to reforms of the nature of that sought by the Petition, I detract from the character so justly enjoyed by the British Government for moderation, love of freedom, and general regard to the interests of humanity. Without reserving any thing to be explained hereafter, I say that the question would meet with my opposition brought forward almost at any period."

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In saying this, I do not say, as to political occurrences, how far events might operate to induce different opinions. Yet the country, as to all senti➡ ments, all views, all feelings, all the impressions ever had of this great question, the sense of this country, and of the reflecting part of the world, are against the Noble Baron; and if I should hesitate respecting the character of the designs, motives, and objects of the Noble Baron, mankind could not allow me to remain indifferent to long established habits of thinking, and the consequences of principle, which no change of times can materially alter. Very naturally my view is not the same as that of the Noble Baron, whose views differ not only from mine, but from those of all who have, to my knowledge, made

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