vituperation, and his Christian charity cla- | nitely more stringent; and the noble Lord mour, had thanked God that he was repre- would not carry his own measure but by sented by the hon. Member for Salford. the support of those who wanted one He was sure his hon. Friend must feel it much more stringent. But those who humiliating to be patronised in such a man- wanted persecution would rather take a ner. But he would admit that many Mem- little than be entirely baffled. The noble bers acted in a manner opposed to the Lord would not withdraw the Bill, besentiments of a large number of their cause it would be humiliating to do so. constituents. What of that? If there But was it not very humiliating to go on were any truth in the representative sys- with it; to be legislating for no practitem, the 656 men returned to that House cal good result; to pass a measure which might be considered as of the foremost he knew would not satisfy those to apmen of the country. It was not their duty pease whose clamour it was proposed, to be the victims, subjects, and tools of a and must produce the worst effects becry, but manfully and boldly to withstand tween England and Ireland? In 1829 a it, if they believed it to be a hollow one. measure was passed-long delayed-which Of course, this language would not apply professed to give Roman Catholics all the to hon. Members who conscientiously dif- liberty we ourselves enjoyed. He would fered from him on that question; but he manfully stand upon that Act. It was far must be very blind who did not know that better to have faith in the population of the effect of this cry, for which the noble this country, to bind them to the LegisLord was largely responsible, was one not lature and the Crown by a generous and a few Members were disposed to follow. confiding treatment, than to proceed in They ought to resist the cry, to stem the such a course as the House was now intorrent; and it would be infinitely more vited to enter on. The noble Lord honourable to go home to their avocations, thought there was great danger in this if they had any, and abandon public life aggression of the Pope. How was there for ever, in defence of principles they had any danger? The Pope could have no always held to be true, rather than be in- authority, except over the Catholics. It struments of a cry to create discord be- was said there were 8,000,000 in Ireland; tween the Irish and English nation, and per- and should the number in England and petuate animosities which the last twenty- Ireland increase to 20,000,000, there would five years had done much to lessen. They be great danger of the Roman Catholic rewere there to legislate calmly and delibe- ligion becoming the established religion of rately, without reference to the passions the country-should an Established Church and contending factions that might rage exist so long. Therefore, the argument out of doors; they were in a position to of danger supposed the conversion of the see pre-eminently that the course in which people; for it was only by this means the noble Lord had been so recklessly that the country could, to any considerable dragging them was fruitful in discord, ha- degree, come under the rule of the Pope. tred, religious animosities-that it had se- The noble Lord had drawn up an indictparated Ireland from this country, had with- ment against 8,000,000 of his countrymen; drawn her national sympathies from us, and he had increased the power of the Pope had done an amount of mischief which the over the Roman Catholics, for he had legislation of the next ten years could not drawn closer the bonds between them and entirely if at all abate. No one would have their Church and the head of their Church. touched that Bill-certainly not the noble The noble Lord had quoted Queen ElizaLord-could he have foreseen all the diffi- beth and the great men of the Commonculties that had arisen out of it. First of wealth, as though it were necessary now to all, the Government had been broken up, adopt the principles which prevailed although probably the noble Lord was pa- most universally two hundred years ago. triotic enough to believe that that was not Did the nable Lord forget that we were a national calamity. But the business of the true ancients, that we stood on the Parliament had been stopped for half a shoulders of our forefathers, and could Session; and they were not at the end of see further? We had seen the working it yet; the Speaker had not left the of these principles, and their result, and chair; they were only on the brink, and had concluded to abandon them. He had about to plunge in. An hon. Gentle- not touched on any matter purely reliman had a proposition to be supported gious; that House was not the place for by a large number, for a measure infi- religious questions. Reflecting on the deep Mr. Bright But mysteries of religion, his own doubts and frailties, the shortness of the present time, and an awful and unknown future-he asked what was he that he should judge another in religious things, and condemn him to exclusion and persecution? he feared not for the country on questions like this. England, with a united population-though the noble Lord had done much to disunite them-cared nothing for foreign potentates, be the combinations what they might. England, with her free press, her advancing civilisation, her daily and hourly progress in the arts, sciences, industry, and morals, would withstand any priestly attempts to subjugate the mind, and successfully resist any menaces whether coming from Lambeth or from Rome. He was one of the sect which had invariably held the principles he now advocated, which had in past years suffered greatly from those principles which the noble Lord now wished to introduce into our legislation. He could not do otherwise than raise his voice against such an attempt, and asked the noble Lord not to proceed further. He should therefore vote with the greatest pleasure against the Speaker leaving the chair. MR. SCULLY moved the adjournment of the debate. They had not yet heard the opinion of the right hon. and learned Attorney General for Ireland, the legal adviser of the Government in that country. There were other opinions, which they should also be anxious to hear. There was an opinion he had read with great pleasure, and he should be anxious to hear an explanation of that opinion from the hon. and learned Gentleman who gave it. He referred to the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Bethell). This question should be properly argued, and he therefore moved the adjournment of the debate. Motion made and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned." The House divided:-Ayes 54; Noes 365 Majority 311. LORD JOHN RUSSELL must deprecate the course taken by certain hon. Members. After they had been four nights discussing the introduction of the Bill, and seven nights more upon the Second Reading, he thought they might now fairly go into Committee. He did not, however, wish to keep the House there all night, and he would therefore consent to the adjournment of the subject until Thursday. Debate further adjourned till Thursday. PROPERTY TAX BILL. Order for Third Reading read. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER moved the Third Reading of this Bill. MR. COWAN said, he had given notice that Schedule D should be repealed, and that in lieu thereof there should be introduced a general system of licences and certificates, which should embrace all kinds of trades which now come under Schedule D. He apprehended that this question might, with great propriety, be submitted to the consideration of the Committee which had been obtained on the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume). A sum of 1,100,000l. was levied by licences and certificates at present. There was only once dice-maker in the whole kingdom. No complaint was made of this description of duty with the exception of the attorneys. He trusted the Motion would receive the careful attention of the House. MR. HERRIES asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to postpone the third reading until the Committee had been nomi Devereux, J. T. Grattan, H. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that the understanding with the House was, that the tax should be renewed for one year, subject to the appointment of a Committee; and it was most 2 H desirable that the Bill should be at once have certain information, and that a full passed, in order that arrangements for its investigation should be instituted; and he assessment might be made. Some little was satisfied in his own mind that the difficulty had been experienced with re- result of the inquiry would be to prove spect to the appointment of the Com- that this petition was one string of gross mittee in consequence of some hon. Mem- misrepresentations. bers whose assistance they had hoped to have had, having declined to serve. He trusted, however, to be able to lay the names before the House to-morrow. COLONEL SIBTHORP wished to know what would be done respecting the pay of military and naval officers. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that all questions relating to trades and professions would be referred to the Committee. Bill read 3o and passed. CONVENTS-PETITION OF THE REV. PIERCE CONNELLY. The EARL of ARUNDEL and SURREY moved, pursuant to notice "That the Order of the House (8th May), that the Petition of the Rev. Pierce Connelly be printed for the use of Members only, be read, for the purpose of being discharged.” MR. STAFFORD thought that this might not be agreed to as a matter of course. The allegations of the petition were so extraordinary, affected so many persons, and, in reference to the circumstances of the day, were so important, that there was some danger that the House, in agreeing to this Motion, would open up a long controversy of personalities and recriminations. And, without asking the noble Earl to postpone the Motion, he (Mr. Stafford) would beg of him to state the course which he contemplated taking. The EARL of ARUNDEL and SURREY said, that the character of the petition and the excitement of the period in which it was brought forward, supplied the reasons why he now made this Motion. The petition made grave charges against various persons; and, in his opinion, he believed mischief would arise if they only obtained a half publicity. When the Motion was made in the Committee on Public Petitions that this petition should be printed for the use of Members only, he moved that it be printed in the ordinary manner, and having failed in that, he now moved that it be not printed at all. All that he wanted was that there should be a proper inquiry; and, as a matter of justice, he demanded of the House, that it would consent to the Motion he had now made. It was necessary to The Chancellor of the Exchequer MR. THORNELY said, as Chairman of the Committee on Petitions, the House would perhaps allow him to explain the reasons which had actuated the Committee in this matter. The petition had given rise to considerable difficulty, and the question as to its disposal had been postponed once or twice. This petition related to very important questions now before the House, and its authority was guaranteed, as far as it was possible, by the name of an hon. Member of the House having been placed among the signatures attached to it. The Committee found that they could not take the ordinary course, in consequence of the seriousness of the allegations made, and after much discussion and deliberation they had concluded that it was their duty to print the petition for the use of Members only. Further consideration of the matter was undoubtedly required; and he agreed with the hon. Member for North Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford) that the Motion ought to remain over. MR. GRANTLEY BERKELEY did not see why the Motion of his noble Friend should not be agreed to. Some 656 of the petitions had already been printed, and it was absurd to suppose that this amounted to privacy. The public would" want to know what was in the petition, and if there were calumnies in the case, no flimsy veil of secrecy should be thrown over them. SIR R. H. INGLIS said, that he was the individual who, in the Committee, had moved the restricted printing of the petition, and he believed that the House would come to the conclusion that the grounds on which he rested the propriety of that measure were satisfactory. The petition contained the gravest accusations against individuals; but they were accusations with which it was desirable that the House should be made acquainted, because they referred to a system which an hon. Member had obtained leave to bring in a Bill to supervise. So long as the petition was confined to Members only, no informer could avail himself of the statements it contained; but if it were made a public document, the House would run the risk of seeing another Stockdale versus Hansard, or even another Howard case. should it be circulated among upwards of 650 Members, and denied to the public? He thought that on the grounds of fair play and common justice, the request of the noble Lord should be acceded to, and that the petition should be generally circulated. MR. C. ANSTEY did not see that the difficulty alluded to by the hon. Baronet was likely to arise. He concurred in the Motion of the noble Lord (the Earl of Arundel and Surrey), but he thought that their attention had not been called to the fact, that these papers had been made as public as the proceedings in the Ecclesiastical Court could make them. Another matter he wished to allude to-whether the point of honour alluded to by the noble Lord was so important as to make it incumbent for any hon. Member who received a paper like a copy of this petition under the restrictions specified, to refrain from taking the necessary steps to enable him to verify or disprove the statements? He saw no reason in the world why he should not put himself into communication with one and all of the parties referred to in the petition, and this was a strong reason why he should agree to the Motion. MR. DRUMMOND would vote which ever way the noble Lord (the Earl of Arundel and Surrey) desired. Having been intimately acquainted with the petitioner for some years, he had seen all the documents connected with the case; and, for his part, he saw no possible objection to having them printed. SIR GEORGE GREY said, that the Committee on Printed Papers, which sat some years ago, expressed an opinion that Members need not feel themselves precluded by a feeling of honour from instituting any inquiry into the facts of a petition printed for the use of Members only, for the purpose of determining whether the statements contained in the petition were true or false. If the noble Lord (the Earl of Arundel and Surrey), therefore, desired to investigate the allegations contained in this petition, he was at liberty to do so; but as the Printing Committee had come to the resolution that the petition should be printed only for the use of Members, he thought that the House ought to support that decision. The EARL of ARUNDEL and SURREY did not in any degree blame the Committee on Public Petitions for the course they had taken. He begged to ask if he was at liberty to place the petition in the hands of such as might be able to satisfy him on the subject? MR. KEOGH thought it impossible that this matter could be allowed to rest. Public anxiety would be excited to obtain access to the petition, which was known to contain most slanderous charges. Why MR. NEWDEGATE thought that all due caution should be exercised in a matter of this sort. He trusted that the right hon. Baronet (Sir George Grey) would be able to assure the House that if the Motion were agreed to, it would not place the House in any position of difficulty. SIR GEORGE GREY could give no such assurance. The petition contained matter deemed grossly slanderous, and it had therefore come under that class of petitions which the Committee conceived should be only printed for the use of Members. MR. AGLIONBY said, the course that had been already taken had all the disadvantages, with few of the advantages, of the course now proposed. They had done all the moral mischief that was likely to result from publication by printing 650 copies, many of which, he had no doubt, had been extensively read. SIR BENJAMIN HALL had read the petition, and he must say that he had never seen any petition presented to that House containing charges of a more serious nature. The character of persons who ought to have stood well with the public was seriously attacked; and he thought that the Committee had exercised a sound discretion in printing the petition for the use of Members only. He would certainly vote against the Motion, unless the noble Lord (the Earl of Arundel and Surrey) would bring the subject-matter of the petition under the notice of the House. If the noble Lord would say that he intended bringing it before the House, he (Sir Benjamin Hall) would at once vote for the printing of the petition. Unless the noble Lord gave him that assurance, he would give his vote in favour of the course which had been pursued by the Committee. MR. HENLEY would not consent to the printing of the petition, if it were to involve the House in circumstances of difficulty, such as they had experienced three or four years ago. MR. DUNCAN said, the Committee had discussed the subject at more than one sitting, and they were of opinion that they had adopted the wisest and the safest course. 936 MR. REYNOLDS said, the Committee | sioners appointed to inquire into the subhad published 658 copies of the slander. ject presented their second report to Her He did not see why the Motion should not Majesty, in which they assigned their reabe carried. The noble Lord (the Earl of sons for recommending some legislation Arundel and Surrey) only wished that the on this subject. The necessity for legisslanders should be known. lation had been admitted by all the distinguished lawyers of the last half century, including Sir Samuel Romilly, Sir Arthur Pigot, Sir Christopher Robinson, and others. It had also been recommended by the present Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, and the Lord Chancellor. The report of the Commissioners to which he had alluded contained a recommendation that all marriages heretofore bad within the territory of the government of the East India Company, whether solemnised by any minister of the Church of Scotland, or any other minister, or by any layman, should be declared good and valid; and, secondly, that the marriage law of India should be made conformable in all respects to the law now existing in England. The Bill, which had been prepared on the subject with the greatest care, had been sent to India, where it was approved of by the Government, and had received the assent of the Commissioners, including the late Recorder of the City of London, the late Lord Advocate of Scotland, and The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER thought the view taken of the matter by the hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) was the correct one. If it could be shown to be necessary that the petition should be made known to the whole world, they might carry this Motion. It was perfectly clear that the parties whose characters were affected by it were perfectly cognisant of it; it could not, therefore, be necessary that the petition should be published to the whole world for parties to contradict it. The real question was, whether they should publish to the whole world that which was asserted to be a libel. He thought the decision of the Committee was a wise and prudent decision, and he trusted the House would support it. MR. BROTHERTON said, the Com mittee were under considerable embar rassment, owing to a Bill being before the House which related to the subject-matter of the petition, and they did not wish to be charged with suppressing facts; and, on the other hand, they did not wish to circulate libels throughout the country. MR. MOORE wished to know whether he was to understand that the more slan derous a petition was, the more they were to deny to parties the right of contradicting the slanderous allegations? He thought they ought to proceed on an opposite principle, and therefore he would vote for the publication. Motion made, and Question put, "That the Order of the House be read for the purpose of being discharged." The House divided :-Ayes 41; Noes 131 Majority 90. The House adjourned at a quarter before Two o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARRIAGES (INDIA) BILL. Dr. Lushington. There were only at pre- ! |