MR. BROTHERTON had had complaints made to him of the interference of the hon. and gallant Officer (Colonel Sibthorp) regarding street music. If the hon. and gallant Officer could enjoy the opera, they thought that he should not interfere with the enjoyments of the poor, for street music was an enjoyment to the poor, without its being a nuisance to any one. He (Mr. Brotherton) was glad to hear that the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) had not given orders for the removal of all street nuisances; but he (Mr. Brotherton) believed that the police had been more active than they ought to have been, and the poor ought not to be deprived of these enjoyments which the hon. and gallant Officer could afford to pay for at the opera-house. ance, he might be taken before a magistrate, | such obstructions and impediments as were and was liable to a fine of not more than dangerous or obstructive to the thorough40s. [The hon. and gallant Member then fares. He had no objections to the return read a letter which had been sent by order asked. of the Police Commissioners, dated Whitehall, March 28, intimating that "the police had no authority to prevent playing music in the streets."] And yet the right hon. Gentleman had said in his speech that such an order had been given; and the letter he (Colonel Sibthorp) had read was dated six days subsequent to the right hon. Baronet's notification. After such a letter as he had just read, he really thought he was justified in calling the attention of the right hon. Gentleman again to the subject. He did not himself pretend to know what powers might really exist, or how far they have extended with regard to this matter; but he must say he regretted that these nuisances did continue to the very serious extent they had gone. He had mentioned that a gentleman had been thrown from his gig by an advertising van and injured; and he begged to remind the right hon. Baronet that an hon. Member of that House had complained of the frauds that were practised on the revenue at railway stations and other places, by these advertising vans, which exhibited advertisements of all kinds without paying any duty whatever for them. He was sure that the right hon. Baronet was not aware of the extent to which such nuisances prevailed. He did not doubt his desire to put a stop to them as far as he could. There were also many complaints from tradesmen regarding the difficulty they experienced in passing through the streets. COLONEL SIBTHORP had no doubt that the hon. Member (Mr. Brotherton) had received complaints on the subject, and he might receive many more; but he (Col. Sibthorp) promised him that he would persist in doing his duty in order that the inhabitants might be secured from danger to their lives. Return ordered. The House adjourned at One o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Tuesday, April 15, 1851. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILL.-1a Coroners. THE MILITARY KNIGHTS OF WINDSOR. COLONEL SALWEY begged to put the question to the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, of which he had given notice. It was one which had reference to the case and claims of that meritorious and gallant body of men, the Military Knights of Windsor, who complained that whilst the revenues of the Dean and Chapter of Windsor, who were appointed trustees and stewards for the Military Knights to pro SIR G. GREY could assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that he was very desirous, consistent with the law, to remove any of the obstructions complained of. With reference to the letter of the 21st of March, he (Sir G. Grey) could state that the apparent difference between the letter and the statement the hon. and gallant Member had made arose thus :-It had been stated in the newspapers that he (Sir G. Grey) had said that orders had been given to put a stop to all street nui-tect them, whilst their property and their sances; whereas he had said that any servant, owner, or occupier of property could complain of any nuisance to the parties, and if they refused to remove them, they could make a complaint to the police, who would interfere if it were a case within the law. The order of the 21st of March was not an order to prohibit all street nuisances, but to prohibit and order the removal of all Colonel Sibthorp interests had increased tenfold, and now amounted to 22,500l. a year, they compelled those gallant and deserving men to subsist on their miserable stipend of one shilling a day, the same as they received at their first foundation in the reign of Edward the Third. As the case was one that affected the interests of every man of every rank, and of every grade, in the British Army, and was of vital importance | painful interest to every one who had paid to the Military Knights themselves, he any attention to the subject. A few days begged to ask the right hon. Baronet whe- ago an hon. Member called the attention ther the late Attorney General, Sir Frederick Pollock, and the late Solicitor General, Sir William Follett, gave their opinion on the case and claims of the Military Knights of Windsor; and whether, in case such opinion was given, there was any objection by the Government to lay such opinion, or a copy of it, on the table of the House, with the papers, documents, and letters relating thereto in the Home Office and in the State Paper Office? SIR G. GREY said, that in 1844 his predecessor in office caused an opinion to be taken upon the legal point in dispute between the Dean and Chapter and the Military Knights. In fact, three opinions were successively taken of the then law officers; and an intimation was conveyed to the Military Knights, through their Governor, that in consequence of those opinions the Government could not advise the Crown to take any steps in the matter. An application was made by the Governor for the production of those opinions; but the then Secretary of State informed him, that when an opinion was taken for the private guidance of the Government, it was not the practice to produce such opinion; and he (Sir G. Grey) felt that, for the same reasons, he could not lay the document in question before the House; but he might state in general terms that it was certainly not favourable to the claims of the Military Knights. The question depended entirely upon the construction of certain documents, and the opinion was adverse to the Knights. of the House to the number of deaths taking place weekly in the union of Kilrush. It appeared that out of about 5,000 persons in the workhouse of that union, 200 had died in the course of three weeks, or about 75 per cent. Since that time he had seen a report of the guardians of the union of Kilrush, reflecting upon some letters written by the Rev. Mr. Sidney Godolphin Osborne'; but in that report they did not deny the statements made in that House. There could be no doubt of the fact that at some 20 hours' distance of the place in which they were sitting, 75 per cent per annum of the inhabitants of a charitable institution were dying. It had been stated in published letters, that in the neighbouring union of Ennistymon, which was under vice-guardians, the number of deaths had been infinitely greater in proportion to the number of persons in the workhouse than had occurred even in the workhouse of Kilrush; and that from the 8th to the 22nd of March, in a period of two weeks, there had been 235 deaths out of 3,893 persons. The deaths in that workhouse, therefore, had been taking place at the rate of about 170 per cent per annum. Now, he asked hon. Gentlemen to recollect what their own feelings were when out of a population of 2,000,000 in this metropolis, some 200 or 300 persons were dying of cholera daily; and he would also remind them of the attention paid by the House to railway accidents, where comparatively few lives were lost; and then he would ask whether the state of, things he had mentioned ought not at once to engage their attention? He was aware it was stated the other night, by the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, in answer to the question of an hon. Gentleman on this subject, that some inquiry would be made, and that the result of that inquiry would be laid upon the table of the House; but he (Mr. Monsell) begged to remind the House that from week to week the Poor Law Commissioners for Ireland received an account of the mortality in every workhouse in that country, and that they were, therefore, perfectly cognisant of the facts. It appeared, however, that, except as a statistical curiosity, no advantage was to be gainMR. MONSELL wished to take that op-ed from those returns. He hoped the portunity of calling the attention of the Government would state that they would House to a matter which must be of most at once give directions that steps should be COLONEL SALWEY said, he should feel it his duty to give notice that he should take an early opportunity after Easter of moving that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the claims of the Military Knights, as set forth in their several petitions to that House. THE KILRUSH UNION. SIR G. GREY said, that in the absence of his noble Friend (Lord John Russell), who had intended to state the course in which public business would be taken after the recess, he begged to make the Motion of which the noble Lord had given notice, "That the House at its rising do adjourn to Monday, the 28th of April." taken, not merely to institute an inquiry, but to relieve the existing distress, which was, he believed, unexampled in the history of this country. The number of deaths had, he believed, been greater than had ever taken place in any charitable institution in this kingdom; and it must be remembered that no statement had been made that any disease of any kind was raging in the district, and that the deaths must be owing either to the miserable state of the poor before they entered the workhouse, or to their bad management within its walls. He was sure the noble Lord at the head of the Government must feel most deeply-as deeply as he (Mr. Monsell) or any one else could do the existence of such a state of things. He entreated the noble Lord, at all events between this time and the reassembling of Parliament after Easter, to direct the Poor Law Commissioners to take steps to prevent so frightful a mortality; and afterwards, if necessary, measures should be proposed and discussed to remedy grievances of which every one must feel the enormity, and with regard to which they incurred a heavy responsibility for their supineness. LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, that not having been in the House when the hon. Gentleman rose, he had only heard a portion of the statement of the hon. Gentleman; but he had had previous accounts sent him respecting the mortality in the union of Kilrush; and the Poor Law Commissioners in Ireland had reported to the Lord Lieutenant on the subject. He was sorry, however, to say that, although the facts were of a very painful nature, there did not seem to be any immediate mode of preventing such a state of things. Every step that could be taken by sending persons to Kilrush to consider what measures could be adopted, had been taken; but while the state of weakness of the people when they entered the poor-house continued to be such as it had been, he was afraid that the mortality could not be much reduced. An inquiry would also take place into the state of the Ennistymon union. MR. SCROPE said, that one reason of the miserable condition of the poor in the Kilrush union was, that the law was not enforced, or at least its intentions were not fulfilled. The fact was that the poor did not receive the relief required to be afforded to them by law. Had the noble Lord instituted an inquiry, or would he institute an inquiry, upon that point? He (Mr. Mr. Monsell Scrope) thought it was not enough to refer the matter to the Poor Law Commissioners, because they were the parties accountable for any neglect of duty which took place, and, if insufficient relief was given either in or out of the workhouse, the Commissioners were responsible. What was required was that some independent person, upon whom the noble Lord could place implicit reliance, should be sent to Kilrush, to ascertain whether the law was properly administered, or whether there was any neglect of duty on the part of the guardians or the Poor Law Commissioners. COLONEL DUNNE said, one great cause of the distress existing in the Kilrush union was that the district did not produce enough food for the people, and in the case of famine it was absolutely necessary that some other means besides local rates, which were wholly insufficient, should be provided for the support of the people. If the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Scrope) was so anxious about the Kilrush union, why did he not contribute to the maintenance of the poor himself? The poorlaw inspector, Mr. Lynch, had made a report to the Commissioners as to the state of the Ennistymon union; but the ratepayers complained, in a public document, that that report was frivolous and exaggerated, and they asked that they might be allowed to substantiate their assertion before some competent and fair tribunal. He wished to know whether any steps had been taken to ascertain whether this officer had performed his duties properly, or whether the statement of the ratepayers, which bore the respected name of Sir Lucius O'Brien, was correct? LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, that not having received any notice that the state of the Kilrush union would be discussed to-night, he had not for some days referred to the papers on the subject. It appeared to him, however, that the duty of the Poor Law Commissioners was, to see that the persons applying for relief, if they were destitute persons, received sufficient relief to support life. The statement of the Commissioners was, that relief had been given, in cases where it had been applied for, according to the rules now in force; and it was said that, in some instances, in the north of Ireland (as we understood), statements had been made that the diet was too abundant, that it was greater in quantity than was necessary for the relief of the paupers. The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Scrope) seemed desirous to raise the question of the policy of the Poor Law, but he would not at that moment enter into that general question, and, indeed, if that subject were to be discussed, it was necessary that some notice should be given to the House. could be prevented. In less than a year, then, under the present system, the whole population of certain unions were likely to be swept away. All he could say was, that if that were the sentence of the Government and of that House, a grave re MR. GOOLD considered that the sub-sponsibility would rest upon the House, ject to which the hon. Member for the the Government, and the country. county of Limerick (Mr. Monsell) had called attention, was one which ought to be thoroughly sifted. SIR L. O'BRIEN said, it appeared to him that the great difficulty in this case was the want of money. It was very easy to charge the Poor Law Commissioners and the guardians of the Kilrush union with neglect of duty, but what was really wanted was money. Rate after rate had been raised in the Kilrush union, and in the other unions in the county of Clare. He begged to remind the noble Lord at the head of the Government that the famine was now reduced within very narrow limits, and that there were very few distressed unions now. He thought it would be but common humanity on the part of the House-though he acknowledged they had been liberal beyond all that could possibly be asked, almost, indeed, to extravagance, in relieving the distress of Ireland-to carry those few unions through this year. If he did not think the guardians of those unions had done their utmost, he would not ask this for them. He considered that it was very degrading and humiliating, as well as highly disadvantageous to a population, to be always living upon alms; but when such frightful scenes as had been described were brought before them, he did not think himself warranted in making the request, that this case might not be considered in too parsimonious a point of view. MR. MOORE said, that whether the cause was want of money or misconduct on the part of the guardians, the fact had been stated by an hon. Member that the poor in certain unions in Ireland-and the term "poor" applied to the whole, or nearly the whole, population of those unions-were dying at the rate of more than 100 per cent per annum. [A laugh.] He repeated, at the rate of more than 100 per cent per annum; that was to say, that at the rate of mortality now going on, they would all be swept away in less than a year. The noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) replied, that though he had caused an inquiry to be made into the circumstance, he saw no means by which this mortality LORD JOHN RUSSELL denied that he had made any reply at all to the statement that the mortality in these unions exceeded 100 per cent per annum. That was a statement which he had not heard made, and therefore he could not have answered it. He had been aware that there was great mortality going on in the Kilrush union; and he had made such a statement on the subject as he was able to make without having had notice of the question, and in the absence of his right hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland. Subject dropped. GOVERNMENT SCHOOL BOOKS. VISCOUNT MAHON wished to put a question to the noble Lord at the head of the Government with regard to the publication of school books in Ireland at the public expense; and he trusted that if the noble Lord was not now able to give him a reply, he probably would be in a position to do so after the recess. This system, which had been established in Ireland, was felt to be a great grievance by many parties. It was considered an undue interference with private competition; it was a grievance to the publishers, with whose trade it interfered; and it was especially a grievance to many respectable men who had written school books, and whom the Government system had deprived of their bread. Two eminent publishers in London, Messrs. Longman and Co. and Mr. Murray, at the end of the year 1849 addressed a letter to the noble Lord upon this subject; and in a note dated the 7th of January, 1850, the private secretary of the noble Lord stated that the letter had been duly received, and that it was under consideration. Another representation on the subject was subsequently addressed to the noble Lord by the same parties, but they did not even receive the customary acknowledgment that it had reached his Lordship. They again applied to the noble Lord in February last, and the answer of the noble Lord's private secretary, dated February 21, was in these words :"I am desired by Lord John Russell to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 20th inst., and of the accompanying | his question at present; but after the Commemorial." After a correspondence of a mittee of Privy Council for Education had year and two months, then, the parties held another meeting, he would be able, were wholly in the dark as to the inten- perhaps, to afford him more information. tions of the Government, and they had, in fact, received no answer to their application. The system adopted by the Government was an interference with the sound principle of private competition, and its effect had been to reduce several deserving men to severe distress. LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, the subject was one which came properly under the consideration of the Committee of Privy Council on Education; and immediately on receiving the first letter of Messrs. Longman, he had asked the President of the Council, whenever the Committee should meet, to allow the subject to be brought under their consideration. It was brought under their consideration; and he concluded that all future correspondence would have taken place between the secretary of that Committee, who usually corresponded on subjects connected with education, and the booksellers concerned. The arrangement agreed to by the Committee of Privy Council was, that it was not desirable to publish any books here, but to treat with different publishers, in different parts of the country, with respect to school books, in order that they might be enabled to afford those books as cheaply as possible to the schools applying for them. The result was, that the publication of the books was abandoned as far as Great Britain was concerned, the books being obtained at the retail price from the booksellers, or 43 per cent cheaper that they used to be. Certainly, however, the Commissioners for Education in Ireland published school books on their own account; but the noble Viscount himself would hardly regret this if he remembered the state of the school books in Ireland before the present system, which had introduced great improvements, was adopted. The Committee of Privy Council on Education did not consider that by this arrangement they had given any advantage to the Commissioners for Education in Ireland. With regard to Great Britain they had not published any works, nor had any offers been made for copyrights. Therefore the whole question resolved itself into this, whether they had given any undue advantage to the Commissioners of Education in Ireland or not? He was unable to give the noble Viscount any further answer to Viscount Mahon SIR R. H. INGLIS said, that he was no free-trader, but he must assert that the Government had acted contrary to all the principles of free trade. They had not only established a manufactory of school books, but had given a monopoly of the market in Ireland to those books. The noble Lord's answer was far from satisfactory; he admitted that he had received a letter, and had not replied to it. In acting as they had done, the Government were violating their own free principles. It was not enough for the noble Lord to say that there were bad school books thirty years ago; were there not good schoolbooks now? The noble Member for Hertford (Viscount Mahon) had done well in calling attention to this subject. MR. HUME said, he was gratified to find that the hon. Baronet who had last spoken was now in the ranks of the freetraders. The hon. Baronet saw the mote in his neighbour's eye, but forgot that there was a beam in his own. He forgot that a monopoly in the publication of Bibles was most unjustly maintained in behalf of the two universities, supported by a patent from the Crown to a printer in this country. It was admitted to be essential that the Bible should be in the hands of every one; and yet the hon. Baronet upheld this monopoly in the two universities. How, then, could he stand up and protest against a monopoly in the printing of school books, the general circulation of which was not so important as that of the Bible? He (Mr. Hume) hoped to have the hon. Baronet's support when he brought on his Motion on the subject of the Bible monopoly. SIR R. H. INGLIS, in explanation, begged to deny that he was a free-trader. He had never pretended that there should be a monopoly in the printing of school books; on the contrary, he had protested against it. FREE ADMITTANCE TO ST. PAUL'S CATHEDRAL. MR, HUME said, the noble Lord at the head of the Government would recollect that, in the month after the accession of Her Majesty to the Throne, he had presented a petition, emanating from a great public meeting, held at the Freemasons' Tavern, praying for the adoption of mea |