this matter to other colonies. After, how- | be suddenly and totally abandoned. We ever, the declaration made by Sir William also received from Sir William Denison, Denison, and after communications had subsequent to that period, statements from taken place, and upon the representation time to time of the effects produced by the of Sir William Denison himself, when we suspension of transportation, by which it found he had mistaken the views of Her appeared that the evils arising from the Majesty's Government, the system of send- crowding of convicts had been diminished, ing out convicts as exiles was abandoned, and that there was again arising a demand and on his recommendation we substitu- for labour, for which there was no due ted the system of sending them out on supply. We received a despatch from Sir tickets of leave. As regards the applica- William Denison, dated 27th June, 1848, tion of it to the few, that system may and laid on the table of the House in Febbe said not to have failed; but when ap-ruary, 1849, in which he calculated that plied to large numbers, we found that the freedom from all control led to serious evils, and that the colonists had some right to complain of the consequences upon society. And it was in reference to these evils that Sir William Denison, on behalf of the colonists, recommended that convicts should be subjected to the limited control of tickets of leave, that they should be spread in districts, but always under a certain discipline, which they could not be subjected to when holding conditional pardons. It is also true that convicts have been sent to Van Diemen's Land, contrary to the hopes which were expressed when the Government in 1847 first began to deal with this subject. We were under the pressure of circumstances, which rendered it utterly impossible to continue the course which we had desired to adopt, unless, indeed, we had gone directly in the face of the avowed opinions of Parliament-I refer to the debates of this House, and to the recorded opinions of the House of Lords-that transportation ought not to be discontinued. In that very despatch, in which Sir William Denison spoke of the general expectation that the old system of transportation would be abandoned, he qualified what he said by a statement which the hon. Baronet (Sir William Molesworth) has not read. Sir William Denison said "Under all the circumstances, I think it would be desirable to carry out the intention mentioned in your Lordship's despatch, to discontinue transportation;" and he added, "and to make every possible arrangement, financial as well as administrative, by which the colony may provide for the inconvenience that may arise from the change of system." Sir William Denison here referred to the effects of the sudden abolition of transportation; and he entertained no doubt that there would be great financial difficulties that a great demand for labour would arise, for which there would be no adequate supply, if transportation was to there would be needed in the colony a supply of from 700 to 800 convicts yearly; and it was thus made out that the new system had been so far successful in the colony. Afterwards that demand so far increased that in the next year Sir William Denison stated, that taking everything into consideration he thought an annual importation of 1,500 male convicts would not be too excessive. We received another despatch in December, 1850, in which he repeats that 1,500 male convicts could annually be received with advantage-in reference to the opportunities for employment in the colony, and not in reference to moral considerations, which rest on entirely different grounds. There is, then here evidence that one class of evils following transportation was removed by the measure of the Government, and that room existed for a short period in Van Diemen's Land for a limited amount of transportation, in order to supply the undoubted demands of the labour market. With regard to what was done subsequent to the resumption of transportation to that colony, I think the hon. Baronet has been somewhat misinformed. In a petition printed in a morning paper of to-day, and emanating from persons in the city of London, on this subject, it is asserted that 30,000 male convicts have been sent into Van Diemen's Land since 1840. The hon. Baronet has also represented the number as excessive; but as far as I have been able to collect the facts, I am justified in saying that there has been in this matter considerable exaggeration. I have obtained the returns of the Home Office, and of the Colonial Office, and I find that since 1840 there have been sent into Van Diemen's Land, from this country, 22,506 male convicts. The hon. Gentleman, on this point, has suggested that the great evil to the colony arises from the great disproportion of female from the number of male convicts. He says that transportation has gone on on the same scale as before, that the stream has rushed on unchecked. Now, I find that in the six years before 1846, not including 1846, the first half of which had elapsed before the suspension of transportation took place, that 17,675 out of the 22,506 were sent to Van Diemen's Land; and that since 1846, not more than 4,831 convicts have been sent into that colony. The year before last only 300 were sent to Van Diemen's Land; but last year, I admit, a larger number was sent, but that was owing to the circumstance, that transportation had been wholly suspended for two years., I may add, that in July, 1846, the number of convicts in the colony, male and female together, amounted to 30,507; and in July, 1850, there were only 25,405, being a reduction of 5,000 convicts. This showed that something at least had been done to stay the stream of immigration of convict labour into the colony, and to restore society in the colony to a healthy condition. And remembering the aggravated evils which pressed upon the colonists in Van Diemen's Land in 1846, suffering as they were from those evils, and from the state of society engendered from the large accumulation of convicts-admitting also the expectations held out to them that transportation, at least without essential modifications, would not be resumed in that colony, I am prepared to admit that they have reason in their complaints, and that it is the duty, as it is the desire, of the Government to give every attention to their remonstrances, and to endeavour to relieve them as far as possible, if not altogether, from the evils against which they are now entering their protest. Before I now proceed to state what have been the views of the Government as to the pressure of convicts in the colony, I will say a few words in allusion to what has been said by the hon. Baronet with regard to the social condition of Van Diemen's Land; and I will call the attention of the House to some papers which have been laid on the table, having reference to the circumstances of the colony at this moment. I find, in respect to its material condition, a despatch from Sir William Denison, dated 15th of November, 1848. Sir William Denison wrote as follows: "Having thus disposed of the report, I will attempt to bring before your Lordship such a statement of the advantages which the colony has de rived from the presence of the convicts, as well as the disadvantages under which the colonists are now labouring from the same cause, as will Sir G. Grey afford sufficient data for some positive conclusion as to the amount to be contributed from the Britthis long-agitated question may be at once set at ish Treasury towards the revenue, in order that rest by a positive declaration on the part of Her Majesty's Government. First, then, with regard to the advantages which the colony has derived, and does derive, from the presence of the convicts. existence dates back only about 45 years, with On comparing the aspect of this colony, whose that of colonies of far older date settled under different circumstances, we are at once struck with the appearance of wealth and prosperity which is manifested everywhere. The houses in the towns are well built of stone or brick; the streets are well kept; the roads are remarkably good; the wharfs and public buildings show evidence of a large outlay of labour. In the country districts the houses of the settlers are well built, the inns commodious; in fact, there is a general aspect of and houses of public entertainment are large and ease and affluence throughout the length and breadth of the land. If inquiry be made as to the original condition of the persons who have been which yield no return, it will be found that in able to sink so much capital in buildings, &c., very few instances did these bring any amount of capital into the country. The whole of this has been the product of the labour, of whom? Of the convicts. Without the cheap labour so freely and lavishly furnished, Van Diemen's Land would now have been in a state of proverty approximating to Western Australia, instead of exhibiting those indications of wealth and prosperity which are evidenced by an import and export trade and which is daily increasing and assuming a more amounting to upwards of 1,200,000l. per annum, healthy and substantial appearance. This is the result of the convict system in past years. What is the case at present? There are altogether about 24,000 convicts in the colony, of whom about 7,000 are in the hands of the Government; the remaining 17,000 compose about three-fourths of the working class; the whole of which, by the census, would appear to amount to about 24,000, The presence of these convicts, who supply the labour market at a cheap rate, keeps down the price in Van Diemen's Land as compared with New South Wales and South Australia, the ordinary wages of labour vary from 9l. to 121. per annum. In those colonies they range from 187. to 247.; and the same proportion, or nearly so, holds good in the wages of mechanics and saving of 91. per annum, on an average, is made It may, therefore, be fairly said that a in the wages of every one of the working class in this colony; and, as this class contains, as bethe employers of labour amounts altogether to fore stated, 24,000 individuals, the saving to 216,000l." artisans. Here Now, I have spoken of the advantages of the new system, of the different class of the convicts who are now sent out of the country-convicts who have undergone a preparatory and reformatory punishment here, under the best regulations as to the system of labour which could be applied. The hon. Baronet says that all this makes no difference, and that the moral taint remains the same. I think that all the evidence of which we are in possession on this subject will be found to contradict that opinion of the hon. Baronet. It is stated in one of the recent reports of the Pentonville Commissioners, the report in question being signed, among others, by the hon. Gentleman himself, who at the time was one of the Commissioners, that the " exiles" from Pentonville had become very valuable servants, and were in all respects very superior to the average; and that the result of the system pursued with them was, that the convicts sent from that prison had been qualified to obtain honest positions in this or in any other country. Mr. Boyd, also, superintendent surgeon of Blenheim, in Van Diemen's Land, gave the following evidence on the subject: "With respect to the prisoners from Portland, they appear, as I have before remarked, to be in decidedly higher order than the hulk men as a body; for, so far as a close supervision of their conduct during the short time they have been at this establishment has enabled me to form an opinion, I consider them, with a few exceptions, to be a well-disposed class of individuals, and from their being mostly ablebodied, and having been taught useful occupations at home, I have no doubt they will prove very desirable servants to the colonists." which compels me to notice matters which may "The strict system of discipline maintained at the different stations began to produce its natural effect in the diminution of crime during the course of last year, as evidenced by the police returns which accompanied the last report of the Controller General; and many of the offences now brought under the notice of the visiting magistrates, especially at the road stations, are in some way or other connected with attempts on the part of the convicts to escape from a system of is generally enforced, has proved most effective. discipline which, from the strict mode in which it If it were possible to trace the causes which have led each of the tenants of a convict station to his found that idleness, a deeply ingrained disincliposition as a prisoner of the Crown, it would be nation to any occupation requiring continuous and steady labour, either of body or mind, has been the primary cause in nine cases out of ten. The steady work exacted from these men at the station, and the monotony of the employment, are most distasteful, of course, and as opportunities are easily found of escaping from a gang at work upon the roads, cases of absconding have been numerous. I can, however, notwithstanding, corroborate the assertion of the Controller General as to the diminution of crime. The evidence of this, however, will be laid more fully before your will comprise among the documents which will Lordship in the next half-yearly report, which accompany it, the statistics of crime for the whole of the present year." I have called attention to these facts, to show that transportation at this time must not be regarded as the same system as transportation a few years ago; and that it must not be assumed, because convicts were formerly sent to the colonies without any care being taken in their moral or religious training, and were placed together to work in gangs, whereby evils were produced, the effects of which were even now but too apparent, that, therefore, transI am not saying that Sir William Denison is infallible. All I ask of the House portation under a totally different system would still be followed and accompanied is to weigh his statements as the stateby the same mischiefs. Again, Sir Wil-ments of an able, intelligent, and expeliam Denison, in commenting on a letter addressed to the Secretary for the Colonics by Mr. Hall, wrote thus in a despatch, dated November 27, 1850: rienced officer in the colony, and to put his representations fairly against the sweeping allegations in the petitions and addresses which proceed from persons who do not speak with the same sense of responsibility. I am not even arguing that all this greatly affects the real question laid before the House by the hon. Baronet. I admit that it would be for the interests of the colonists if the colony could be freed from those who have been, or are, convicts. But I believe that they are at present only suffering from the large accumulation of convicts of former years; and that the evils of which they complain do not arise at all in connexion with the "The state of Van Diemen's Land, in all its moral and social relations, will not suffer by a comparison with that of any of the colonies on the mainland of Australia; and I would unhesitatingly appeal to any of the strangers who have during the last few years visited this colony to bear me out in the assertion. I enclose a copy of a letter, written, I believe, by an officer of high rank in the civil service of the East India Company-one who, from his position, was peculiarly qualified to form a correct judgment upon such subjects-which will serve to give your Lordship a better idea of the state of the colony than the rhetorical exaggerations of Mr. Hall. I need hardly apologise to your Lordship for addressing small number now transported to them— you on such a subject. I am placed in a position those now sent hence being of a better class, and going under a new system. I believe that for many years past successive Governments have attempted to meet and to devise the most efficient measures against these evils; but as long as transportation remains a punishment which the Legislature insists upon continuing (and this large question is mixed up with the question raised by the hon. Baronet), it is quite clear that these evils cannot be altogether removed. The great object of the present Government has been the dispersion of these convicts, and that is the object which we ought always to keep in view; but we have been thwarted-and when I use the word thwarted, I complain of nobody, for I respect and sympathise with those who desire that no one tainted with crime shall be permitted to land on their shores-but we have been thwarted and impeded by the unwillingness, the natural unwillingness, of any of our colonists to receive convicts, or to co-operate with the Government in the attempt at the dispersion of convicts. If the Government had succeeded in inducing the colonists of New South Wales to receive convicts on a large scale, I think the solution of this difficult question would have been much easier than we now find it to be. At the present moment it is difficult, if not dangerous, to speak openly on the subject at all after the experience we have had of the disappointments occasioned by unexpected difficulties arising to impede hopes and intentions; but I will say that we have in contemplation means whereby we do trust to find it in our power to provide satisfactorily for the mass of convicts while to a very great extent meeting the wishes of the colonists. In Western Australia measures have been taken for sending out and employing convicts, and with good prospects of success. No doubt the number that can be received there is limited. The number already sent is only 500; but the House will find in the papers just presented to Parliament on Convict Discipline and Transportation," the resolutions of a meeting held in Perth on the 10th of July, 1850, in which the colonists, stating that they had called for a supply of convict labour to develop the resources of the colony, which had hitherto remained quite stagnant, and which, properly developed, would render the colony one of the most flourishing of the Australian group, express their thanks to the Government for the ready compliance shown with their wishes. Very recently, too, we have 66 Sir G. Grey had a despatch from Captain Hender. son, the officer in charge of the convicts in that colony, which gives reasonable ground for hope that the experiment of sending convicts in that direction will be successful in reference to the interests of the colony generally. I believe that the works in which the convicts are engaged will be found remunerative to the colony, and that the advantages of the colonial prosperity will be speedily reflected on this country, and that if we incur a charge on account of the colony it will in the end be more than repaid to us by the ultimate results. But there is a still more important colonial district, the inhabitants of which require convicts-convicts who do not work in probationary gangs, and who are not employed under strict penal discipline, but who are under a modified system of liberty, that of the ticket of leave. This district to which I refer is Moreton Bay. By an Act of last Session, provision was made on the application of the inhabitants, for the separation of this large pastoral district from the rest of New South Wales; and the large proprietors of land and of stock there have asked the Government not to discontinue transportation, but to provide them with a supply of convicts of the improved class I have mentioned. We have information on this subject, which has reached us only within the last day or two. Newspapers of January of this year are now in our possession from that colony: and I hold in my hand two papers which usually take very different views in this matter-the Moreton Free Press, and the Moreton Bay Courier. Both these papers contain an account of a remarkable meeting, attended by the chief inhabitants of the colony, at which resolutions were passed expressive of the urgent necessity for supplying the district with convict labour. At that meeting several gentlemen, who formerly held the opinion that convicts should not be sent to the colony, came forward and avowed a change of sentiment, and stated their belief that the interests of the colony and this country might be at once promoted by a modified system of convict transportation, such as that to which I have already referred. These gentlemen said that the colony could receive at least two thousand convicts annually for a considerable time to come, and that with a due regard to the prosperity of the settlement. I do not like to indulge in any expectations or hopes which may be dis appointed, and I have therefore contented | lony with the interests of this country in myself with quoting these facts, as indi- dealing with this subject. I, therefore, cating the possible means of meeting some hope that the House will not accede to of the difficulties we have had to contend the proposition of the hon. Baronet. with. I am far, however, from saying that MR. C. ANSTEY said, it appeared the colony of Van Diemen's Land has not that the complaints of the reluctant popusome ground of complaint, and that the Go-lation of the colony were to be disregarded; vernment ought not to avail themselves of that every incentive to the emigration of other outlets for convicts, and relieve Van its free inhabitants would still be adminisDiemen's Land from any undue pressure; tered by the Imperial Home Government; and although I feel, with Sir William Deni- and that every obstacle would still be son, that great advantages are derived by thrown in the way of free emigration from the colony from the presence of convicts un- Europe thence. He listened with some der the new system, yet I sympathise with degree of surprise to the parties referred those who desire that the social and moral to by the right hon. Baronet (Sir George evils arising from the presence of these Grey). The right hon. Baronet had apconvicts should be removed. It is the pealed with confidence to the solitary case desire of Government, without giving any of a public meeting assembled in the pledge on the subject, such as the present squatting districts of New South Wales Motion requires, to diminish transporta- (for that was the character of Moreton tion to the colony as far as possible, con- Bay), and had asked them if, in the face sistent with their public duty. They are of that public meeting, the House would prepared to give due attention to the re-entertain the Motion of his hon. Friend presentation from the colony of Van Die- the Member for So thwark (Sir William men's Land as to the evils arising from Molesworth). Then te right hon. Barothe transport of convicts there, and will net had quoted the sentiments of an Indian endeavour, as I have already said, to find officer, who had been only a few weeks in other outlets, so that the colony may be Van Diemen's Land, and who spoke against relieved from the accumulation of any the testimony of all the inhabitants of the large number of comparatively undis- colony, all the public meetings that had ciplined convicts. I have called your been held, and all the petitions sent from attention to the letter of a retired In- the settlement to that House and the foot dian officer, whose statement is of con- of the Throne. What he (Mr. Anstey) siderable importance; and I hope that begged to ask was, the condition of Van hon. Members will read that letter, and Diemen's Land as represented by those give due weight to the views which are who ought to know it best-the free peothere expressed by an unbiassed and intel-ple of the colony? It would be impossible, ligent witness. That officer, before his visit to the colony, was led to believe that it was in the lowest state of degradation; but the result of a very careful examination on his part completely disappointed the expectations he had previously formed on the subject. It is highly necessary to the prosperity of Van Diemen's Land that its character, its social and moral position, should be properly understood, and that emigrants may not be deterred from going to the colony by exaggerated statements. I hope that the House will not by its hasty adoption of the Motion of the hon. Baronet (Sir William Molesworth), impose any fresh difficulties and embarrassments on the Government. It is requisite that we should act with great caution lest we should give rise to other evils greater than those which we are anxious to remove; and I trust that the House will be satisfied that it is the desire of the Government to endeavour to reconcile the interests of the co with any regard to public decorum, to enter into any details respecting it in any place which was open to the public press, or where publicity might, in any shape, be given to these details. The numerical proportion of the virtuous and criminal population of that land was, year by year, month by month, and week by week, changing to the prejudice of the former, and advantage of the latter. Free emigrants declined to go to that colony. They went elsewhere, and those free emigrants who had hitherto inhabited the colony, were emigrating by shoals to other colonies not tainted by the presence of a criminal convict population. In 1824, when Van Diemen's Land first possessed a free population, there had been every inducement held out by Government that those who went thither should be protected as much as possible from the contamination deprecated by the hon. Member (Sir William Molesworth). From 1824 to 1840 the |