Magan, W. H. Maher, N. V. Meagher, T. Morgan, H. K. G. Murphy, F. S. O'Brien, J. O'Brien, Sir T. O'Connell, J. Sullivan, M. Talbot, J. H. TELLERS. Moore, G. H. The EARL of ARUNDEL AND SURREY submitted that it was not desirable at that hour of the night (twenty minutes after eleven) to proceed with the first clause of the Bill, and hoped that the Government would consent to the Chairman reporting progress. SIR GEORGE GREY said, the greater part of the debate had turned on the first clause; and though it was then after eleven o'clock, it was not an unusual hour to proceed with the consideration of the clauses of a Bill. MR. ROEBUCK said, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Reynolds) had asked him what he got by doing what he thought right? It was a curious way of putting such a question. He (Mr. Roebuck) would tell him what he thought he got. He believed that a large majority of the people of both countries would judge them by what they did in that House, and that if they, fairly and honestly opposing this Bill, acted on the principles of the constitution, as embodied in their rules and laws, the people of England and Ireland would see they had done their duty. But if they did their utmost to render the rules by which they were governed in that House mischievous to the country, they would at the same time be doing their utmost to endanger the great cause of constitutional liberty. It was in that manner that he looked on the questions that had agitated the House that MR. M. J. O'CONNELL said, it was night; and while he did not do injustice to impossible to finish the discussion on the the strong feelings of Irish Members, let first clause that night, and he would put it them, on the other hand, not do injustice to the Committee whether it would be de- to the strong feelings of English Members sirable to proceed further at that hour. who had fought the great battle of constiMR. REYNOLDS urged on hon. Mem-tutionalism, and had rendered that House bers who were opposed to the Bill to stand firmly together, unconcerned by the disparity in the majorities on the last two divisions. They would gain nothing by political gentility, or by scraping and bowing to the Treasury benches. The hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) had appealed to him not to press his Motion. He (Mr. Reynolds) could not consistently comply with that request. They divided; and what did the hon. and learned Member gain for his (Mr. Reynolds') party by going into the library? He saw no reason for complying with the request of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey), that the Committee should proceed with the consideration of the first clause that night. Without meaning to pursue any course that could be called factious, the Committee having now decided that the preamble should be postponed, if the Government, having had an opportunity of putting forth their Attorney General and Solicitor General, with a tyrant majority, would now enter on the discussion of the first and most important clause at that hour, he would make no apology for adopting any line of conduct he thought proper what it was both for Irishmen and Englishmen. When Mr. O'Connell was opposing the Coercion Bill for Ireland, in 1833, he did not act in this manner, and though he was then nominally beaten in that House, his victory over the Treasury bench was the more striking the year after. Now he thought there was a good reason for postponing the consideration of the clauses. The alterations in the measure had been made suddenly. The Bill had been printed late in the day. The alterations which were proposed in the old Bill did not fit the new one, and it was therefore but fair that hon. Members should have an opportunity of arranging these alterations so as to fit the new Bill. The first clause in the new Bill was not in the old one at all. He thought this clause a most important one, and he believed that those who were opposing the Bill would be able to show the House, that as it stood now, it was either ineffective, or so sweeping as to be dangerous. Let the Government then give the Irish Members twelve hours; let them have no reason to say that they were governed by a tyrant majority, and even if it should turn out here after that those twelve hours were thrown | in Ireland; and, if that was so, it would be away, what was that in the government infinitely better that that intention should of the country? Let them be able hereafter to say to the people of Ireland, "We did everything that justice called on us to do; there is no pretence for saying that there was not a fair discussion." SIR R. H. INGLIS said, that reference had been made to a tyrant majority; but after the repeated divisions which had taken place against the strongly declared opinion of the House, he must say that if they were not to be governed by a tyrant minority, it was the duty of the Government to protect the majority, and not allow the public business, whatever it might be, to be impeded. Was the business of that House to be stopped because thirty or forty Gentlemen chose to oppose themselves to majorities of the House which had never been exceeded on any former occasion-in one instance that night, he believed the majority was nine to one? The EARL of ARUNDEL AND SURREY did not rise to defend himself and other Members who went into the library on a recent occasion, but in order to express his extreme regret that any Catholic Member for Ireland or England should say a word against any Protestant Member in that House who was supporting their cause -still more with respect to one who had supported their cause with so much ability, zeal, and discretion, as the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck). He trusted that the Government would listen to the appeal which he had addressed to them. SIR FREDERICK THESIGER said, he hoped that the Government would accede to the request for delay. It had accepted the Amendment proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole), which made a declaratory enactment in their Bill, applying merely to the rescript of the Pope of the 29th of September, 1850. In answer to a question put by his right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General had explained that, although that declaratory enactment applied solely to England, it would have such an effect upon the law that the Judges of Ireland would feel themselves bound to declare that any brief would be illegal and void in Ireland. He assumed, therefore, that it was the intention of the Government that any brief should be illegal be declared on the face of the Bill itself. Immediately, therefore, that he heard the answer of the hon. and learned Solicitor General, it occurred to him that it would be desirable to introduce such an amendment into the first clause as should make it, in distinct terms, apply not simply to the particular brief to which it was at present directed, but to all similar briefs and rescripts-extending it, therefore, to Ireland, as he presumed it was the intention of Government that it should. It was impossible, then, to enter upon the consideration of that Amendment, and he therefore hoped that the Government would accede to the application which had been made to them to allow the Chairman to report progress. MR. GEACH said, that he was one of the Members who went into the library in consequence of the conduct of the hon. Members opposite (the Irish Members). He went into the lobby with them on the first occasion, for having lately come into the House with a distinct declaration that he should vote on every occasion against the Bill before the House, he sought for an opportunity of recording that vote, and on every fair opportunity that presented itself he should vote against the Bill; but he did not feel that he should be right in supporting the course taken by hop. Gentlemen opposite, for he could not help feeling that it was frittering away the time of the country without any practical use. He entreated those Gentlemen not to continue thus to occupy the time of the country. He should vote with them against the measure on all fair opportunities, but he should not join them in the course which they had pursued, for he did not think it was one which advanced the cause the had at heart. SIR GEORGE GREY said, that when he was asked to allow the Chairman to report progress immediately after the division, remembering that the discussion had turned so much upon the first clause, he thought it was the duty of the Govern ment (having regard to the public time which ought to enter into their consideration) to ask the Committee to go further into the consideration of the Bill. Time was then, however, going on; they were engaged in a discussion that could lead to no profitable result; it was clear that they could make no real progress that night; and if it was the case that the 1 House resumed; Committee report progress; to sit again on Friday. The House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, May 20, 1851. Bill, having only been printed that day, I proposition of that Gentleman (Mr. Adhon. Gentlemen wished to give notice of derley) by a counter proposition, negaAmendments, that was no doubt a reason tiving the appointment of a Commission, for delay. He hoped that on Friday next, and proposing an inquiry by a Select Comwhich was the first day that they could mittee of the House of Commons. One of again consider the Bill, they would enter the principal grounds of opposition to the upon the discussion of the clauses at five appointment of a Commission was stated o'clock, and proceed with it without any to be that it would interfere with the opefurther delay. rations and diminish the effectiveness of the authority of the local Government of that colony. [See 3 Hansard, exvi. 226.] With the assent of Ministers, a Committee of the House of Commons was appointed; but the Committee was not named at the time, and indeed was not named till the 9th of the present month. The members of that Committee had not yet sat. It was stated by Ministers in the course of the debate on the 15th of April, that if it should appear to the members of the Committee that a commission should be sent out to the Cape of Good Hope to make inquiries on the spot, no objection would be taken to such a measure. As yet there had not been any opportunity of obtaining the opinion of that Committee, for, as he had stated, the Committee had not yet sat. It appeared, however, that a commission had been appointed to inquire into the present condition of that colony; and under these circumstances he now asked his noble Friend to explain the motives which had induced the Government to appoint this commission, the powers which had been intrusted to it, and the special objects into which it had been authorised to inquire. MINUTES.] Reported.-Property Tax. ADMINISTRATION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE Amendments made: the report thereof to be received on Thursday next. CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. LORD WHARNCLIFFE rose to put a question to his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies on a subject on which some explanation was certainly required. It would be in the recollection of some of their Lordships that about a month ago he believed on the 15th of April-a gentleman of high authority, who took a great interest in the affairs of the Cape of Good Hope, proposed in the other House of Parliament that a Commission appointed by the Crown should be sent out from this country to inquire into the state of affairs in that colony. It would also be in their recollection that the Government met the VOL. CXVI. [THIRD SERIES.] EARL GREY said, that it was perfectly true that it was proposed in the other House that a Commission of Inquiry should be sent to the Cape of Good Hope, and that that proposition was objected to on the part of Her Majesty's Government, on the ground that the appointment of Commissioners of that description would interfere materially with the powers and functions of the Governor, and introduce much confusion into the affairs of the colony; and also on the ground that the general state of affairs at the colony had more than once been a subject of inquiry, and that further inquiry on that point was not required. At the same time it was stated that, as the war which had unfortunately broken out would render it necessary to apply to Parliament for a considerable grant to meet its expense, Her Majesty's Government thought it only reasonable that, before that vote was applied for, a Committee of the House of Commons should be appointed, before whom should 2 P be laid the information connected with | border tribes, particularly with reference that subject, so that the Committee might to the occupation of land, which required be satisfied of the necessity for the expen- to be promptly decided, and when decided diture. Although, however, he believed to be promptly executed-indeed, he bethat the appointment of a commission of lieved that to a want of means deciding inquiry as proposed by Mr. Adderley, would and enforcing the rights of the various have been extremely inconvenient, he parties, might be attributed many of the thought that although a commission of in- difficulties that had lately arisen. Now, quiry on the spot might not be necessary; although Sir H. Smith was appointed yet that under the difficult circumstances commissioner for this purpose, he must in which he was placed, Sir H. Smith re- necessarily at the present time be so much quired some further assistance. When Sir occupied with the command of the military H. Pottinger was sent out to the Cape of forces, and with the general direction of Good Hope at the end of 1846, he held, the civil government of the colony, that it besides the appointment of Governor, a was not possible for him to give that minute separate and distinct commission, by which attention to these questions which was nehe was appointed Her Majesty's High cessary for their prompt and satisfactory Commissioner for the adjustment of the adjustment. He (Earl Grey) thought it affairs of the border tribes. And although, of extreme importance-considering the perhaps, no distinct or definite powers were state of affairs at the Cape, the number of conveyed by that Commission, it still point-private interests that were involved, and ed out one of the most important duties which he was expected to perform, and invested him with a certain degree of authority over the persons with whom he had to deal in that capacity. When Sir H. Pottinger was promoted to a higher office, and went to India, Sir H. Smith was appointed in the same terms High Commissioner for the affairs of the border tribes; and what was now intended by Her Majesty's Government, was to appoint two assistant commissioners under Sir H. Smith, for the management of this same business. It was not strictly a commission of inquiry, for he did not believe that inquiry would throw much light on the actual condition of affairs on the borders of the colony, or in the colony itself; nor did he think that it was likely to lead to any change in the policy to be adopted, for that policy had been carefully considered, and the views of all the different persons who had considered it coincided upon almost every important point. These views were adopted so long ago as 1845, on the recommendatior of Sir Benjamin D'Urban; they were fully stated in a despatch which he (Earl Grey) addressed to Sir H. Pottinger at the time he proceeded to the Cape; they were adopted by Sir H. Pottinger in the course of his administration, and were mainly in accordance with those adopted by Sir H. Smith, when he succeeded to office. But although the general principles of the policy to be adopted were generally concurred in, there was much practical difficulty in their application. There were many questions of great nicety and complexity arising from the disputes of the Earl Grey the manner in which, unfortunately, party spirit had been enlisted in questions that had arisen there-that, in the adjustment of these various points in dispute, and the grievances alleged by different classes of the population, which had led to the revolt of one very numerous class of the population whose assistance in the former war was of great value, Sir Harry Smith should have the assistance of able and impartial persons, who were at the same time intimately acquainted with the affairs of the colony. It was with that view that choice had been made of two gentlemen who had greatly distinguished themselves in the late Kaffir war, and had since left the colony without any intention of returning to it; but who had now, from a sense of public duty, though at considerable inconvenience to themselves, accepted the offices of assistant commissioners under Sir H. Smith, for the adjustment of these affairs, One was Major Hogg, who had been captain in the 7th Dragoons when that regiment was employed at the Cape, who was then entrusted by Sir H. Pottinger with the duty of raising the Hottentot levies during the wars, and who had so much influence with them that he was enabled to raise a large body of men whose services were of the greatest value. The other gentleman was Mr. Owen, who went to the colony a very young man, immediately after taking his degree at Oxford, resided there some time, and had the great advantage speaking the Kaffir language with great facility. He had only returned to this country in May last, and there were the highest testimonials to his merit both from of |