bers) were called upon to take any one step with respect to this Bill in its present shape, and that, too, without being informed what was precisely the Bill which the noble Lord intended to stand by. The hon. Member for East Somersetshire (Mr. W. Miles) who had voted for the Bill, had informed him that if there were no other person, in that House to make the Motion, he would move that the Bill should be reprinted. Before they went one step further, he said the Bill ought to be reprinted. Again, he put it to the noble Lord whether it was fair to the Roman Catholics to persist in such a course as this? They were bound not to allow the noble Lord to go forward with this Bill in its present shape and form. The objections here were made for no purpose of delay: the object was, on the contrary, to secure a fair and legitimate progress with the measure before them to have that measure put in a clear and intelligible manner before them. It was not, he said, fair to that House, it was not fair to the Roman Catholics, it was not fair to the country, to attempt forcing on a discussion upon a Bill which was not before them in a clear and intelligible form. plained his (Lord John Russell's) meaning. When the Bill was reprinted, the whole question would be open for discussion. MR. GRATTAN desired to know, first, what was held to be included in the Bill. The noble Lord at the head of the Government had said that he gave up his preamble. The noble Lord made an offer, if hon. Members would not object to Mr. Speaker leaving the Chair on Monday; but it would be impossible, after what had taken place in Ireland, for any Irish Member to allow Mr. Speaker to leave the Chair to go into Committee on this Bill. The Irish had liberty to fight for it, and they would fight for it, but they would fight for it against that House. They would not suffer their peace to be disturbed any longer by paltry legislation. The present Bill was the commencement of a course of war in Ireland. If the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole), was carried, no Roman Catholic priest could exist in Ireland. Roman Catholic ecclesiastics could only exist, in the first instance, by the authority of the Pope, and that authority was denied in the preamble. [Cries of "Order!"] There was no order in his country. The proposition now was, whether the preamble be postponed. ["No, no!"] Yes, it was. He wished to know whether the preamble was withdrawn or not? [An Hon. MEMBER: Yes.] Then, if the Motion was withdrawn, what were they now discussing? [An Hon. MEMBER: Nothing.] Well, as we were discussing nothing, the Committee will perhaps allow me to say a word or two upon that point. The preamble was to be altered, and three clauses out of four were to be withdrawn. Was it then worth the noble Lord's while to drag the House and the country into that LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I beg to make a proposal, which, if the hon. and learned Gentleman adopts, and the Committee should consent to, I should be willing to abide by. What I am willing to do is, to leave out the clauses which we now propose to leave out; to accept the clause of the hon. and learned Member for Midhurst, which I stated the Government were willing to accept; to put the preamble in the form my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary proposes; to have the Bill printed, and then to go into Committee on Monday, on the understanding there would be no debate on the question that Mr. Speaker leave the Chair. If the "Serbonian bog, where armies whole have hon. and learned Gentleman the Member sunk?" for Midhurst will consent to go into Com-Let the noble Lord make another omismittee with the Bill, as the Government sion, and leave out Ireland. Let him take proposes, I shall then be willing to take warning by the ominous bell they had that course. heard tolling from Enniskillen on the former evening, and not resuscitate the fell spirit of party in Ireland. The Orange party, there, was again raising its head, an instance of whose intolerance had lately occurred in his own neighbourhood. An English clergyman having been buried there, a cross was placed over his grave, but the Orange party broke into the churchyard in the night, broke the cross, and wrote "No Popery" on it. They MR. KEOGH said, the noble Lord had made a proposition which he was not prepared to say was not a very fair proposition, as he understood the noble Lord merely proposed that the Bill should be reprinted; but that when before them it would be open to them to offer any opposition which they thought was called for. LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, the hon. and learned Gentleman had entirely exVOL. CXVI. [THIRD SERIES.] 2 M afterwards spent the remainder of the the clauses which were now second, third, night drinking-To "Hell with the Pope and fourth, would be struck out. It would and all the cardinals." They should con- thus come before the House in a form sider the state of Ireland, instead of such which would leave it open to him, if he trumpery measures as this, In the north thought, as he certainly did, that the Bill every man who asked for his rent was was defective, particularly in the preamble, shot, while the south was a desert. A to move any Amendment he thought proman had lately ridden twenty miles in per; and he reserved to himself the power Ireland without meeting a human being. of moving any of the Amendments he Talk of bullies! the bullies were the men had placed on the paper. He would not who had kept down his country with say he did not see great difficulty with 40,000 armed men. They had driven the respect to the portion of the Bill which people to the grave or to America, but related to what had been called the inthey should remember Saratoga, General formers' clause, as well as the difficulty in Cornwallis, and Lord Burgoyne. [Loud the way of Government, and that of aclaughter.] Well, General Burgoyne. He ceding to his own Amendment without hoped that the noble Lord would reject some qualification. If the hon. Member the Bill. for Meath (Mr. Grattan) thought he wished no Roman Catholic to exist in Ireland, or desired to interfere with any spiritual function of the Roman Catholic bishops or ministers, all he could say was, that if the hon. Member could prove to him any of his Amendments would have such an effect, he would immediately withdraw it; and that he would not propose anything whatever which, in his conscience, he believed could interfere with any such function, or prove injurious to religious liberty. MR. WALPOLE thought the hon. Member (Mr. Grattan) had certainly mistaken what both the noble Lord at the head of the Government and himself intended to do. The proposition which had been made by the noble Lord appeared to him (Mr. Walpole) so reasonable that if hon. Members exactly understood it they would scarcely object to it. That proposition really amounted to this, that the House should consider itself in Committee pro formá, for the purpose of enabling Government to reprint the Bill according to the form in which they intended to lay it before the House. According to the statement of the noble Lord, the Bill would then simply contain the recital of MR. M. GIBSON questioned whether, which the right hon. Gentleman the Home after all, it was worth while to amend the Secretary had given notice as the pream-preamble. He thought it would be shown ble, and would go on to declare, not, as had been supposed by some hon. Members, that "this kingdom is and has been at all times so free and independent that no foreign prince, pre late, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction or authority within the same or any "The said brief, rescript, or letters apostolical and all and every the jurisdiction, authority, preeminence, or title conferred, or pretended to be conferred thereby, as aforesaid, are and shall be and be deemed unlawful and void." The Bill would then contain as the second clause that which was now the first, and Mr. Grattan MR. MOORE said, after what had fallen from the noble Lord at the head of the Government, he (Mr. Moore) would think it a breach of honourable feeling to oppose Mr. Speaker leaving the Chair on Monday. that the preamble was not at all necessary for any practical purpose, and that it would be quite sufficient merely to enact what they wished to be done by their enacting clause. He could not understand what object there could be in taking so much pains to amend the preamble, for the enacting clause would be that which would guide courts and juries. MR. NEWDEGATE wished to ask GoVernment if they were prepared to allow the temporal aggression of the Pope to pass unnoticed? There had been an intrusion on this country of a Cardinal priest and legate from his Holiness, which was contrary to the law and ancient custom of the realm. No legate à latere could come here without the express permission of the Sovereign, and on the promise that he would do nothing contrary to the rights and privileges of the kingdom. By that step the system under which the Roman Catholics had hitherto lived would be MR. HEADLAM said, that the Com broken up by Cardinal Wiseman and Le- sell, Mr. Napier, and Mr. Keogh be added gate Cullen. With regard to these legates, to the Committee. their presence was not essential to the discharge of episcopal functions, but super-mittee on Mortmain was not intended by seded them, and they were not required for the administration of the sacraments, or for the cause of charitable funds. This part of the aggression was purely political, and was directed against the authority of the Crown and the temporal liberty of the subject. Was the noble Lord prepared to take no step in this matter? him to be directed against any religion. He thought a Roman Catholic Member ought to be on it, and he had nominated the Earl of Arundel and Surrey. There was a general rule of the House this Session that Committees should only consist of fifteen Members. He had not the slightest personal objection to extend the Committee by the appointment of the three distinguished Gentlemen who had been named. SIR FREDERICK THESIGER said, as the Committee had agreed to the fair proposition of the noble Lord (Lord John Russell), he thought it would be infinitely SIR GEORGE GREY said, the House better that they should not enter into a had made a rule that Select Committees discussion of that kind. His hon. Friend should only consist of fifteen Members, in (Mr. Newdegate), when the Bill was re-order that the business might be more printed, would have an opportunity of see-effectually done. Great convenience was ing whether there were any provisions to meet the difficulties or inconveniences which he had stated; and if there were none, it would be open to him to propose Amendments of his own. The hon. and learned Member for Athlone would permit him (Sir Frederick Thesiger) to make an observation as to the preamble. The course in Committee had been to postpone the preamble until after the clauses were settled; and he thought it would be desirable to follow that course on the present occasion, which would not be attended with any inconvenience in discussing the clauses. found to to arise from the working of the rule, and it had been adhered to, unless where special circumstances rendered it advisable to depart from it. Now, in the present case he saw no special circumstances demanding a departure from the rule. He would therefore oppose the Motion. The EARL of ARUNDEL AND SURREY said, that there were special circumstances which did require another Roman Catholic Member or two upon the Committee. He, since he had been appointed, but had not been able to attend the Committee once, LORD JOHN RUSSELL thought, with in consequence of his labours upon a Railthe hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Wal-way Committee. It was very necessary pole), that it would be advisable to reserve till Monday the discussion of the points referred to by the right hon. Member for Manchester, and hon. Gentlemen opposite. All he asked was that they should on Monday be placed in the same position as they were now, and that no opposition should be made to the Motion for going into Com mittee. that a Roman Catholic should be on the Committee, as the law of Mortmain was very much connected with the Roman Catholic religion. Moreover, the law of Mortmain in England was different from that of Ireland, which was an additional reason in favour of the proposition of the hon. Member for Limerick City (Mr J. O'Connell). He trusted that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastleupon-Tyne (Mr. Headlam) would not object to the Motion. MR. KEOGH: He does not object to MR. KEOGH, in answer to the appeal which had been made to him, merely wished to inform the hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir Frederick Thesiger) that it was not the invariable custom to postpone the pre-it-it is the Government who oppose it. ambles of all Bills, and that he would be prepared to quote precedents to show that such was the case. House resumed. MR. J. O'CONNELL said, that as the hon. and learned Member for Youghal (Mr. C. Anstey) had expressed opinions extremely adverse to the Roman Catholic Bill reported, to be printed as amended. party, he was not considered as represent MORTMAIN. MR. J. O'CONNELL moved that the Select Committee on Mortmain do consist of eighteen Members, and that Mr. Mon He ing their interest in the Committee. and the other a Protestant, and the third was a Member to whom no one could object. He hoped that a mere formality, under the very special circumstances of the case, would not interfere with justice. LORD JOHN RUSSELL had no objection to insert the name of Mr. Keogh instead of that of the Earl of Arundel and Surrey. MR. G. A. HAMILTON said that, before the Committee was appointed, his learned Colleague (Mr. Napier) was consulted upon it, and he left the House under the impression that he was to have been nominated upon it. Certainly, it would be most desirable that an Irish legal Gentleman should be a Member of the Committee. MR. KEOGH would prefer not serving upon the Committee, and that Mr. Napier and Mr. Monsell should be appointed. As to the hon. and learned Member for Youghal, he was not an Irish, he was an English barrister. He would be very glad to see Mr. Napier nominated. There were some cavalry officers upon a Committee appointed to inquire into the law of Mortmain. Now, he thought the hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Napier) would have been a more eligible person than cavalry officers. Motion made, and Question put, "That the Select Committee on Mortmain do consist of eighteen Members.' The House divided :-Ayes 38, Noes 94: Majority 56. METROPOLITAN COMMISSION OF SEWERS. On the Motion for the adjournment of the House till Monday, SIR BENJAMIN HALL said, he would take that opportunity of calling the attention of the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Sewers to some extraordinary facts with which he had just been made acquainted. When he had asked the noble Lord some evenings ago for certain information respecting the expenditure of the Commissioners, the noble Lord recommended him to go to their office, and he had done so. The result was, he had to make some charges of a serious nature against those Commissioners, who were perfectly irresponsible, who had levied heavy rates, had control over more than 8,000,000l. of property, and whose liabilities were enormous. He found in the Metropolitan Sewers' Act, 11 and 12 Vict. c. 112, the following provisions : - "Sect. 24. And be it enacted, that the clerk of the Commissioners shall keep the record of proceedings of committees in proper books. their proceedings at their courts and minutes of "Sect. 25. They shall cause a seal to be made, and shall cause to be stamped therewith decrees, orders, and records of proceedings; and ratepayers may inspect.” As a ratepayer he went to inspect accordingly, and would the House believe it ?this Court of Record had kept no record whatever from the 11th of October, 1850, to the present time. He then desired to see a manuscript minute of proceedings of the Court when the last rate of 6d. in the pound was ordered to be prepared, and was shown a rough paper sent to each member of the court, showing the business to be transacted on the 6th of December, 1850; and the 28th order of the day was the following:-No. 28, "As to ordering preparation of sewers' rate in the undermentioned districts; namely, western division of Westminster sewers, and the Greenwich district." He then desired to see the order, and was shown a piece of paper with an order, no date, no signature; and, as regarded the order for such rate for the Westminster district, such order has never to this day been entered in any book whatever. He asked whether the order was passed by the Committee or by the Court of Record. The Secretary said he did not know to whom the paper belonged, but he concluded that it belonged to the Court, because it contained some allusion to its proceedings. On the 11th of April the Court met and made a vote for 6d. in the pound, on 4,000,000l. of property. That order had never been entered in the minute book. He asked the Secretary how it was possible that the business of the office could be conducted in this way; and he received from him the extraordinary statement that rough minutes, or rather heads of minutes, were taken, and that he (the Secretary) was obliged to trust to his memory to draw them out for the Book of Record. Now, he begged the House to remember that not one of those minutes had been entered in the books since the 11th of October, 1850. His noble Friend the Member for Bath (Viscount Duncan) and himself were no less than two hours and thirty-five minutes engaged in examining the papers, which it required the solicitor or lawyer of the Commission and eight clerks to produce, such was the disgraceful state of confusion in which they In happened that on Tuesday last were. he heard that a large sum was to be bor- not; so that whatever contradiction might rowed by the Commissioners. On Wed- be offered to his present statement must nesday morning he went to the office, and be directed against the Secretary, and not asked if such was the fact, and he was against his noble Friend and himself. told that on the 15th of April a Resolution On the 17th of December last a genwas passed in Committee asking for the tleman went to the office of the Comshortest term at which a Mr. Peath would missioners and desired to see the milend 10,000l.; that on the 29th, the Com-nutes of proceedings. He was informed mittee recommended the Court to borrow that he could not examine the last series, it; and that on the 2nd of May a Court as from the 21st of June to the 15th of was held to consider the subject. Would August they were in the hands of the the House believe it? There was no entry binder: from the 15th of August to the in the books respecting the result; but he 29th of October they were in proofs; and was informed that the 10,000l. was bor- from the 29th of October to the 12th of rowed for five years at 5 per cent. He December they were not entered up. This maintained that this was disgraceful to the was mentioned to the right hon. Baronet Commission; and when his noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Degave the unsatisfactory answer a few partment on the 8th of February last, but nights ago to the question whether he there had been no amendment. He wished intended to bring in a new Bill with re- also to call the attention of his noble spect to the Commission, he (Sir Benjamin Friend at the head of the Government and Hall) was not surprised that his hon. and the House to the disgraceful way in which gallant Friend (Captain Fitzroy), who was the Commissioners acted towards the pubat the head of the parish of St. George, lic. Would the House believe that the Hanover-square, repeated the question, and Court was adjourned from the 12th of expressed his astonishment that the Com-July to the 19th, and from the 19th to the mission had been allowed to continue so long. He (Sir Benjamin Hall) asked the Secretary to show him the minutes of the Court from January the 1st to the present time. The Secretary answered that they were not entered. He then desired to see the rough minutes; and the Secretary said, "I will give them to you, but I am afraid you will not be able to make anything out of them, they are so mixed together." This was certainly quite true, for he had never seen, in the whole course of his life, any public documents in so disgraceful a state as the documents in that office were; and he hoped that what he was now saying would reach the eyes and ears of the ratepayers, and that they would go and judge for themselves. He found that many of the papers were not signed, or dated, or authenticated in any way whatever; and yet those Commissioners had power to raise taxes upon 8,500,000l. of property. The Secretary admitted that from January to the present time no minutes whatever had been entered in conformity with the Act of Parliament. In order to be careful in what he stated to the House on this subject, he read over to the Secretary every word of what he had now stated. 26th, and from the 26th to the 2nd of August, in consequence of no Commissioner having been present at any one of these times? so that people who desired to appeal against rates were put off from week to week, and had their time wasted, all because the Commissioners did not attend to their duties. On Saturday last a Court was appointed to meet at 12 o'clock for the purpose of ordering works, hearing appeals against the district rate of the Western division of Surrey, to receive presentments of rates, presentments in case of nuisances, to hear parties summoned to appear, to affix the seal of the Commission to contracts, and to order summonses to be served on defaulters. The parties who went waited one hour and a half, and no Court was made. He asked his noble Friend if such things could be allowed to go on? He wished also to call the attention of the House to-he would not call it a fraud—but an imposition which had been practised on it. On the 14th of February the Committee of Sewers ordered Mr. Joseph Smith to make a survey of Victoria-street sewer. On the 4th of March Mr. Joseph Smith presented that Report, and the Committee passed a resoHe asked him in the pre-lution directing their engineer to report sence of his noble Friend the Member for upon the same, and to propose a system Bath (Viscount Duncan) whether he had for checking, by means of Mr. Joseph misstated, or been mistaken, on any one Smith and his staff, the works performed point, and he was informed that he had by contractors, and declaring that no set |