had just heard, it became necessary that some answer should be given to his statements, and particularly on account of his attack on the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland. He therefore moved that the debate be adjourned.

the noble Lord at the head of the Government.
has assigned as one of the reasons for not
consenting to an adjournment, the mode in
which petitions were presented to-night, I
beg to say, Sir, this cap fits me, and I
wear it. Now, permit me to ask the noble
Lord in sober seriousness, if he, bearing
in mind the rule preventing Members from
reading petitions, and tying them up to a
certain form in presenting the same-
[Loud cries of "Oh, oh!" and " Divide !"]
Hon. Members may take their time—Ī
will take mine.
address to the

MR. MOORE said, he entirely agreed in the Motion made by his hon. Friend (Mr. Lawless); and after the attack made upon the religion he might say the country-by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Whiteside), a reason was furnished The few words I have to why an opportunity should be afforded to House will occupy much others to reply to a speech the virulence of less time than the interruption. I beg to rewhich had been only equalled by its miser-mind the House [Cries of "Divide !"] able failure. Ireland was avenged that they will not divide until I have done. I night in the person of the hon. and learned am under the protection of the Chair; and, Gentleman; and that reputation which he Sir, under your protection, I claim the had achieved in defending the liberties of right of speaking. The noble Lord rehis country was utterly lost that night. fuses to agree to the adjournment of the [Loud cries of "Oh, oh!". "Divide, debate, and he assigns as a reason the divide!"] He could assure hon. Gentle- mode in which petitions were presented men that they would not gain any time by to-night. I have already said that cap the course they were pursuing; but he fits me, and I wear it. The petitions would state-[" Oh, oh!"] Until hon. which I presented emanated from twentyGentlemen gave him a few minutes hear- two localities where meetings were held in ing he would persevere in addressing the the chapels on last Sunday. On that House. There was another reason why occasion 1,500 simultaneous meetings were he should wish the debate to be adjourned; held in the chapels in Ireland. We have for the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. instructions from those who feel aggrieved Whiteside) had not only impugned the by the Bill before the House not to present prelates of the Roman Catholic religion, those petitions in the lump for the accombut also the prelates of his own. The modation of the noble Lord; and I will hon. and learned Gentleman had told them assert the right of the House to read the that the national system of education was title of all petitions I may present-I will founded on right and justice. He would state their prayer, the number of persons ask what the hon. Baronet the Member who have signed the same, or such other for the University of Oxford (Sir Robert particulars as the forms of the House will Inglis) or the hon. and learned Member permit; and I will make no apology to the for the University of Dublin (Mr. Napier) noble Lord for the exercise of that priviwould say to that? The only point the lege. The only point the lege. In conclusion, I give the noble hon. and learned Gentleman had made was Lord notice that there are still many hon. that stale joke about the right hon. and Members who will discuss the question learned Attorney General for Ireland, and before Mr. Speaker leaves the chair. I he thought that right hon. and learned consequently shall vote for the adjournGentleman ought to have an opportunity ment. of explaining himself.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, he should have been quite willing to agree to the adjournment, but that that was the thirteenth night of the debate; and he was more especially opposed to it when he considered the mode in which petitions had been presented that night to the House. He would, therefore, take the sense of the House on the question of adjourn

ment.

MR. REYNOLDS, who rose amid loud cries of "Spoke!" and "Divide !" said, as

MR. O'FLAHERTY said, the noble Lord at the head of the Government had accused an hon. Member of having presented petitions in an unbecoming manner. Now, he believed, that if anything irregular or unbecoming was done, it would be the duty of Mr. Speaker, not the noble Lord, to correct it. For his own part, he was determined to present all the petitions intrusted to him, according to the rules of that House.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

The House divided:- Ayes 46; Noes | wick. Now, it further appeared, that a 359 Majority 313.

project, which might be considered to some extent as one of a competing character, had been formed in the United States for the construction of a gigantic line, 2,000 miles in length, from Lake Superior to the Pacific. He believed there could be no doubt that a Bill for the construction of such a line would at an early period be adopted by the United States Legislature. The result would be to give a vast development to the resources of the United States, and at the same time to turn the tide of emigration completely from our own Colonies, unless the proposed line in those Colonies should be constructed. He wished to ask the noble Earl the Seeretary for the Colonies whether he had any objection to lay before the House any information he might have received with regard to the resolutions adopted by the Legislature of New Brunswick upon this subject; and whether, if the proposal of Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Her Majesty's Government had been reDebate further adjourned till To-mor-jected by the Legislature of that Colony,

Question again proposed.

MR. R. M. FOX said, that he, as a Protestant, was anxious to have an opportunity of stating his opinions on new matter which had been introduced into the debate, and particularly on the attack made on the Roman Catholic hierarchy of Ireland; and, therefore, he should move the adjournment of the House.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn.'

LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, that if hon. Gentlemen were really anxious to address the House, on new matter which they conceived had been introduced in the course of the debate, he could understand the desire for an adjournment for that purpose. And if that, and not mere delay, was the object, he would not oppose that desire, but consent to the adjournment of the debate.

row.

Notice taken that forty Members were not present; House counted; and forty Members not being present, the House was adjourned at Two o'clock.

mmme

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, May 16, 1851. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILL.-1a Salmon Fisheries (Scotland).

RAILWAY FROM HALIFAX TO QUEBEC
THE LEGISLATURE OF NEW BRUNS-

WICK.

LORD STANLEY rose, pursuant to notice, to put a question to the noble Earl the Secretary for the Colonies in reference to recent proceedings in the Legislature of New Brunswick respecting the proposed railway from Halifax to Quebec. A project had, it seemed, been formed in Canada, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia, for the construction of a line of railway, which would greatly develop the resources of those colonies; but the authorities at the Colonial Office in this country had refused to accede to the terms demanded by the promoters of that project, and had offered terms of a somewhat different character. To those latter terms the Legislatures of Canada and Nova Scotia had shown a disposition to accede; but they had been rejected by the Legislature of New Bruns

Her Majesty's Government were prepared to take any further steps for the purpose of meeting their views and promoting the undertaking?

EARL GREY said, he had no objection to give the information asked for by the noble Lord to the best of his power; but the information he had as yet received was very imperfect. It was true that the Legislature of New Brunswick had decided against the proposition regarding the esta blishment of railway communication for the North American Colonies which the Government had sent out for its considerarion; but he did not think their decision against the proposition was deliberate, because it was arrived at hurriedly at the close of the Session, and after a very imperfect examination and understanding of the real nature of the proposal submitted to them. In the present state of affairs, therefore, and without further communication on the subject, he was not yet in a situation to say that anything could posi tively be decided upon by the Government. With respect to the applications of private companies, proposing to construct the railway, the course he had always pursued was to decline to entertain the project of any company which did not come to him with some authority from the Provincial Governments. That he thought the only safe principle to proceed upon, and he saw no reason to depart from it for the future. He could only state that as yet no really

THE SHIPPING INTEREST. The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY said, he had to present to their Lordships an important petition, signed by 400 shipowners of the North of England and the port of Shields, stating the large capital they had employed in the shipping trade, and especially in the carrying trade of the

substantial and responsible company had come forward to undertake the formation of the lines referred to. One company only had appeared in the matter; but the Provincial Governments, both of Canada and Nova Scotia, had declined to entertain their proposals, believing that they could not be able to raise the necessary funds. Her Majesty's Government took the deep-northern coal, in which they employed beest interest in the question of railway communication for the North American Colonies, and they could not regard what had taken place in New Brunswick as any proof that their proposition had been finally rejected. Of course, however, if the three provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick could agree to some other plan, which the Government could recommend Parliament to adopt, he could only say it should receive the fullest consideration; but in the present condition of the question he could not say anything fur

ther.

LORD MONTEAGLE said, he had heard with much pleasure the statement of his noble Friend, that they might yet hope to see that matter satisfactorily settled. He (Lord Monteagle) could not but express the regret he felt when he found his noble Friend had given up the occuaption of the land when it had been offered to him. The whole question of the legislation for these North American railways, involving as it did the connection between them and the mother country, as well as the improvement of 13,000,000 of acres of land, was one of great importance; and he hoped his noble Friend would suspend any final proceedings on the matter until the opinion of the three Colonies should have been obtained. He wished to know whether any steps had been taken with respect to the Railway Bills of last year?

EARL GREY said, he had considered that it would have been much better to have the land under the management of a local government than of the British. With respect to the acts referred to, they had been only received two or three days, and no steps had yet been taken about them.

LORD STANLEY wished to know, with reference to the company to which the noble Lord had referred, whether there would be any objection to lay on the table the communications which had passed between them and the Government?

EARL GREY said, if the noble Lord wished to move for them, they would be produced.

tween two and three thousand seamen. (Minutes of Proceedings, 55.) They complained, in the first instance, that the alteration in the navigation laws had created severe depression in their home and foreign trade. In the home trade, however, and especially in sea-borne coals, they did not fear any competition, provided the Legislature would place their interest on a just and equitable footing. But there existed a very prejudicial interference by the directors of railways along the coast running to towns where traffic had been carried on hitherto by the coasting vessels, but which could no longer sustain a contest with the railways. The directors charged extremely high rates of toll where they had no competition, and extremely low ones on the same kind of traffic where they had to compete with the shipowners. It was quite evident that, if no measures could be adopted to arrest this prejudice to the carrying shipping trade of the north, this great nursery of seamen would infallibly dwindle away. In the early age of railways, he remembered predicting in that House-and he thought he had a right to claim credit for having done sothat, without some specific laws, the time would arrive when railroads, even at great distances, would knock up our mercantile marine as to sea-borne coals. This prediction, he remembered, was ridiculed at the moment; but the time was fast approaching when his words would be fulfilled, and unless the Legislature interfered, the shipowners in the north would be speedily and irremediably ruined. With regard to the immediate object of the present complaint, it was especially against the Great Northern Railway. That company had obtained liberty to charge higher tolls, and they exercised this right most unjustly. They had entered into arrangements with the Yorkshire collieries, and refused to furnish facilities except to favoured parties, which amounted to prohibition. It was not that there was, in his opinion, even now, the smallest danger of any inland coals carried by railway competing with the sea-borne coal by the northern

enabled to carry on their trade upon a system which would enable their owners to regard without alarm the competition of railways. Vessels were already in progress of construction which would make the voyage between London and Newcastle and back again in four or five days, and that would be a feat which he believed no railway would be able to outstrip; and as the vessels would be freighted with fuel, the cost of the steam would be very cheap.

ships, if the latter were fairly dealt with; | with railways on very favourable terms. but their Lordships would observe, that By the joint operation of sails and screw sea-borne coals were subject to heavy propellers, coasting vessels would soon be charges for lights and municipal dues, from which inland coals carried by railway were free. Certainly, in London (owing to the exertions of Sir Robert Peel), and within 20 miles round the city, the city dues had been equalised; but still the sea-borne coal was subject to other heavy charges from which inland coal was exempt. The railways now charged on their traffic upon their lines to London, several shillings a ton more dues to places 30 or 40 miles north of London, than they did to London itself. Surely, then, there ought to be some scale of proportionate uniform charge, regulated upon principles of fairness and justice. Admitting, to the fullest extent, the importance of cheap fuel, it was unwise and impolitic unfairly to tax the best article, as it was impolitic to break up, by permitting such proceedings, their mercantile marine of the north. The petitioners further hoped that, as seamen were employed for the national safety, they would not be sacrificed to the treachery of railway directors.

The EARL of HARDWICKE rose, not so much to support the prayer of the petition, as to congratulate the noble Marquess that his opinions on the subject of the navigation laws appeared to have undergone some change.

The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY: I beg to say that there never was a more mistaken idea. I voted against the change. in the navigation laws, and I have seen no reason to believe that in doing so I acted unwisely.

The EARL of HARDWICKE was delighted to find that he had misapprehended the noble Marquess. He feared that his noble Friend was beginning to look with favour on free-trade; but he was delighted to find that this was an erroneous supposition, and that the noble Marquess was still a faithful Protectionist. For his own part, he did not think that the matter referred to in the petition was one which came immediately within the influence of the navigation laws. He would not weary their Lordships by entering into the details of the question; but he might be permitted to observe, that, in his opinion, the petitioners would not be so seriously damaged by railways as they appeared to apprehend, because the science of the application of steam to the movement of floating bodies, would eventually enable them to compete

The Marquess of Londonderry

LORD BEAUMONT said, that the complaint of the petitioners was, that the Great Northern Railway Company had obtained power to construct the railway upon condition of establishing a very low scale of tolls; but after their Bill was passed, they came again to Parliament, and obtained leave to increase the amount of tolls. The use they had made of this power was to impose a low scale of charges upon coals conveyed all the way to London, because in London they had to compete with seaborne coal; but they had established high rates for the conveyance of coal to interme diate places, which were at such a distance from the sea that the company had no competition to encounter; and the peti tioners prayed that charges proportionate to the distance might be enforced. That, he thought, was a very fair subject for consideration, though he did not pronounce any opinion on the matter.

The DUKE of BUCCLEUCH could say from his own experience, and as one who suffered considerably, that it always had been the case that the long traffic was reduced at the expense of the short traffic.

on the

EARL GRANVILLE said, this was a question of some difficulty. He appre hended that the effect of the course recommended by the petitioners would be to lower the tolls on the conveyance of coals for short distances; but to raise the tolls for long distances, as, for instance, transport of coals from Yorkshire to London. It was, however, quite obvious that the railway companies might not be able to supply villages, where there was a small consumption of coal, at the same rate at which they supplied towns, where there was a large consumption, and he thought a great deal might be said against any alteration of the law.

LORD REDESDALE said, that any dif ficulty which might exist as to considering the question on both sides arose from the

fact that the City duty was levied on sea- | colony. borne coal, and not on other coal.

EARL GRANVILLE said, the noble Lord was mistaken, as the duty was as much upon inland coal as upon seaborne.

House adjourned till Monday next.