ments. That is a kind of favour which is paid immediately on the receipt. Most assuredly I never will propose them.

Mr. Jenkinson.(1)—The honourable colonel tells us, that this parliament is a Roman Catholic parliament, and very near its end. I have always understood, that when a Catholic is dying, he is generally attended by a number of troublesome people, disposed to put many troublesome questions to him. Now, I hope that Catholic practice will not be followed in our case, but that he will, at least, allow us to die in quiet.

After some further conversation, the Chairman read the following clause:—

That it shall and may be lawful for his Majesty, his heirs and successors, by warrant under his or their signet, or sign manual, and with the advice of the privy council, to constitute and appoint a council, to consist of such persons resident there, not exceeding twenty-three nor, less than seventeen, as his Majesty, his heirs and successors, shall be pleased to appoint; and upon the death, removal, or absence of any of the members of the said council, in like manner to constitute and appoint such and so many other person or persons as shall be necessary to supply the vacancy or vacancies, which council, so appointed or nominated, or the major part thereof, shall have full power and authority to make ordinances for the peace, welfare, and good government of the said province, with the consent of his Majesty's governor, or commander-in-chief, for the time being."

Mr. Dempster.-I do not see the use of making this council consist of a fluctuating number. With great submission, I would throw out, that the number is rather small, and that it had better consist of thirty than seventeen. I would

(1) Charles Jenkinson, Esq., at this time vice-treasurer of Ireland, and a member of the privy council. In 1786, he was raised to the peerage by the title of Baron Hawkesbury, and, in 1796, advanced to be Earl of Liverpool. He died in 1808.

further submit, whether it is not necessary to describe from what body of men this council should be selected—that it shall consist of members of the different religions of the old and new subjects. I would also suggest to the noble lord, the necessity of enacting a quorum; say fifteen of the thirty, or twelve, if the number is to remain twenty-three.

Lord North.-As to the last objection, I apprehend there is now a quorum established by the bill, which says, that "the major part shall," &c.; therefore, there must be a majority of seventeen. It is intended that part shall be Canadians, and that the majority shall be Protestants; but it is difficult to know what number of Canadians you can admit. The behaviour of the Canadians has been, hitherto, unexceptionable, and there is no reason to doubt of their fidelity in general; but they are Roman Catholics. They have been old and attached subjects of the Crown of France, and have had some reason to regret the change. It will, therefore, be necessary to be cautious in the choice, that none may be chosen, but those on whose good character and fidelity you can rely. It will be difficult to say how many come within that description.

Mr. Dempster.-The reasons of the noble lord would have their weight with me, provided I could have a certainty that this was only to be a temporary law. If we do not give a qualification to the council, some of the worst characters in the country will get into it-men who will shew a ready compliance to the will of the governor; and thus you will have a despotism of the worst sort. If the council were to consist of gentlemen of property in that country, their own fortunes would go far to assure the colony of their making none but such laws as are necessary for its good government.

Captain Phipps.-The clause states, that "it is at present inexpedient to call an assembly." Now, I wish to know why some reservation is not made of the King's power to appoint an assembly, or why the measure is not made temporary. I speak constitutionally. I speak as a member of

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the House of Commons, when I say it is with great caution this House, acting legislatively, ought to concur with the other House, to take the power out of the hands of the people, and vest it in the Crown.

Governor Johnstone.

I should not object to the clause, if the bill was a temporary one. The English colonies. have flourished more than others; they have found out the secret of carrying freedom to the distant parts of the empire. I hope gentlemen will not come to the conclusion, because certain assemblies in America have recently been tumultuous on a nice point, that therefore all assemblies are to be discountenanced. I know the meeting an assembly is more dreadful to evil doers, than meeting the House of Commons. I know that without an assembly, it is impossible to carry on the various concerns of the country. My difficulty lies here. I think you should make the individuals composing that legislative authority feel that they have some rights. To induce them to give their voice faithfully, and without fear and terror, they must hold some rights in the place they possess. The tyranny of a number is greater than the tyranny of a few. If there were no House of Commons, does any gentleman believe that the King and the House of Lords would not be more tyrannical than the King alone? We see it daily. A multitude will do things, which a single person through shame would not dare to perform. I see throughout the whole, that the interest of the governor, and the interest of the receiver-general, are the predominant features of the bill; together with surrounding our own colonies with a line of despotism. As an Irishman said to me, in that nice metaphorical language that belongs to his country, you are coming round and round, till, like water flowing in upon an island, encroaching upon it more and more, you will not leave a foot of ground for the fowl of the air to rest upon. I fear you will not leave a foot for liberty to rest upon.

Lord Beauchamp. This clause has been objected to, as if the proposed legislative council were to become the

mere creature of power, dependant upon the governor. Now, I apprehend the bill has guarded against any such inconvenience, as much as it possibly could do. All appointments must be made by the King in council, and the removals must be effected in the same manner. The honourable gentleman says, that the inexpediency of calling an assembly has not been proved; and he afterwards took occasion to observe, that the establishment of a popular assembly in Canada was objected to in this House, in consequence of our unhappy dispute with America; but I think no member has advocated the appointment of this legislative council on that ground, or ventured to say, that it will always be inexpedient to give the province an assembly: no man can foresee what changes will happen in that province; but I am in hopes that there are such events in the womb of time, as may make that plan of government admissible. But, though I throw out a wish that this bill may, in reality, be a temporary measure, if a clause to that effect should be proposed, I shall feel it my duty to object to it.

Captain Phipps.-The noble lord says, you are not to hold out a permanent government. In another sentence he says, that the House of Lords is against allowing an assembly, and that if it be allowed, it should be done by the whole legislature. I say, a great principle of aristocracy prevails in that House; that it is always an enemy to the communication of a free assembly to any people. I say, that this legislative council should prevail, till his Majesty sees it convenient to establish an assembly.

Mr. Pulteney,()—-An assembly might do a great deal of good, and could not do much mischief. With regard to the qualification, the right of electing might be given to such as had property. I am not aware that the assemblies in

(1) Second son of Sir James Johnstone of Westerhall, and brother of Governor Johnstone. Having married Miss Pulteney, neice of the Earl of Bath, he changed his name, in 1767, by sign manual, to Pulteney. By the death of his elder brother, in 1797, he became inheritor of the baronetcy; and died in 1805.

America have done any mischief, except in being adverse to the power we assume over them of taxing them. We have no power superior to the people, which can act for them. I do not see why the Canadians should not be indulged with an assembly immediately. The power of electing annually is so complete a check, that I am persuaded they would be satisfied with that alone. In the island of Granada, the exclusion of Roman Catholics from voting at elections created great discontent.

Mr. Baker. It is said in the bill, "upon the death, removal, or absence, &c." Whether a vacancy happens by death, removal, or absence, it is considered in the same light: but the removal may be by the act of the governor, or by the act of the King; and the absence may be accidental or designed. It is so generally expressed here, that whatever be the occasion, the King has the power of admitting as many more members as he pleases. Is it proper that so general a power as this should be given, without distinguishing what those occasions may be?

Lord North. This absence must be a very serious absence. The vacancy must be filled up by his Majesty in council: government cannot be informed of a slight absence. It must be an absence out of the colony; not an absence of illness. I have an amendment of some consequence to propose. It is necessary that a power should be given to the legislative council, to raise certain rates, corresponding to our county rates and parish rates; but care should be taken, in drawing it up, that the words of the proviso do not convey a general power to the council of imposing taxes upon the province.

The noble lord then read his proviso as follows:

"Provided always, that nothing in this act contained, shall extend to authorize or empower the said legislative council to lay any taxes or duties within the said province, such rates and taxes only excepted, as the inhabitants of any town or district within the said province may be authorized by the said council to assess,