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United States, and, I trust, of the individual ing salaries; it was supposed, by many, to be re-carried in the affirmative. It was then proposed
On the question for striking out 4,500, it was publican, but he entertained a different opinion ;l to fill the blank with 4,000, which was agreed to
H. O' R.)
[SEPTEMBER, 1789. rated the debts, taxes, and burdens of the people; and doubted not but experience would sorrowfrom whence he urged the necessity of the ut- fully demonstrate that low salaries are anti-repubmost prudence and economy in the expenditures lican ; that, as you reduce your officers to scanty and appropriations. He referred to the situation allowances, you depreciate the Government, and of Great Britain, and contrasted our circum- when the day of trouble arrives which tries men's stances with theirs. He said the salary of the souls, we shall lament the want of firmness and Chief Justice ought to be about four hundred vigor in those who fill the Judiciary of the Unipounds sterling. He referred to what had been ted States. said respecting the incomes of lawyers; and said, Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) was against he believed, where there was one who got three reducing this sum. He adverted to the circumthousand dollars a year by his practice there were stance of raising the salaries of the Judges iz twenty who did not get one-third of that sum. England, at the accession of the present King, He conceived that a much less sum than that from the idea of rendering them more inde proposed would command the first abilities on pendent than they had been. He then stated the the continent. He would ask gentlemen, if the amount of their salaries, and the situation of State Judges were men of inferior character ? the people in that country, in respect to public Yet they served for much less pay than what is burdens. now proposed.
He then referred to the salaries of the Judges Mr. Jackson said, he did not doubt the truth of in several of the States; and pointed out the prowhat the gentleman mentioned respecting the portion of the expense which the Judiciary of the lawyers. But he would ask, if Judges of the State of South Carolina bore to the amount of Supreme Court of the United States were
to be their Civil List, and made it one third ; whereas taken from the lowest class of lawyers? There the Judiciary of the United States would not was no doubt, he said, but that Judges might be amount to one-eighth. He pointed out the neces obtained for five hundred pounds, but what kind sity of holding out such inducements as would of law? What kind of decisions would you get influence the first abilities to accept of the apo from such Judges? There are lawyers in some pointment; and urged the importance of making of the States, who make from fifteen hundred to the Judges independent. The Judicial departtwo thousand guineas a year by their great abili- ment he considered to be the sheet anchor of the ties. Will such men relinquish their emoluments Constitution ; a department of the first consa for the honor of serving the United States ? quence to the Union; a department which, in all I have received some accounts from
the South civilized countries, is placed in an eligible and inward, by which I find, that gentlemen are de-dependent situation. clining public appointments, on account of the Mr. Madison said, he did not wish to trouble smallness of the salaries. We ought to consider the committee with a recapitulation of observin the great importance of this officer ; that the lives, tions
respecting the first abilities ; but he would the properties, and rights of the citizens are to observe, that it ought to be considered that these depend on his decisions; that the preservation of Judges' must make a new acquisition of legal the Constitution of the United States, and of the knowledge. They must have a familiar acquaintindividual States, depends, in a great measure, on ance with the laws of every State; they must the wisdom, impartiality, and independency of understand the nature of treaties, and especially President of the 'United States is to be tried by and foreign countries. These studies will absorb him; all the great appeals, and matters of treaty, a great deal of their time. are subjected to his decision. From these considerations, the first abilities should be procured; volve upon them, they strike the mind as being
When we consider the duties that will degiven, so that every possible inducement to an dians of the Laws and of the Constitution of the undue bias and influence may be taken away.
Mr. Page had no doubt but the first characters States also. would be attained to fill these very important When we consider the great and important offices; but he feared that a low salary
would causes, in which opulent individuals will be pure render them less independent than they ought to ties, that are to come under their cognizance, than they would make on the bench, which these Judges from all possible assaults of tempien themselves. He feared this from
the situation of ties
will be it the Judges in Virginia. They were formerly al- | volved
, the idea will receive additional forces the rage for reducing salaries, they were lowered of the people, he said, he should disagree to the able, if the present Judges were to fall off
, whe- same time, shoulă not agree to the proposed ! ther they could renew the bench with men of duction. equal characters. He feared this rage for reduc
[H. OFR. After going through the bill, and making altera-pressly the duty of the keepers of their jails, to receive, tions in almost every salary, upon the foregoing and safe keep therein, all prisoners committed under principles, the committee rose, and reported the the authority of the United States, until they shall be bill as amended.
discharged by the due course of the laws thereof; After which, the House adjourned.
under the like penalties, as in case of prisoners committed under the authority of such States respectively;
the United States to pay for the use and safe-keeping SATURDAY, September 19.
of such jails, at the rate of fifty cents per month for
each prisoner, that shall, under their authority, be comThe engrossed bill for amending part of the mitted thereto, during the time such prisoners shall be act to regulate the collection of the duties, was therein confined ; also, to support such of said prisonread the third time and passed.
ers as shall be committed for offences. A bill, making provision for the invalid Pen
The said resolution being twice read, was sioners of the United States, was read the second agreed to by the House. time.
A bill making appropriations for the service of A message from the Senate informed the the present year, was read a second time, and House, that they had passed an act to regulate ordered to be referred to a Committee of the processes in the courts of the United States, to whole House to-morrow. which they request the concurrence of the House; The House then proceeded to consider the realso, that they agree to some, and disagree to port of the committee upon the petition of the others, of the amendments proposed by this Baron de Glaubeck: House to the bill for establishing the Judicial Whereupon, it was Resolved, That the Baron Courts of the United States.
de Glaubeck be allowed the pay of a Captain, Mr. PARKER, from the committee appointed for from the ninth day of March, 1781, to the twentythe purpose, presented a bill concerning the im- fourth day of August, 1782, having undertaken portation of certain persons, prior to the year the command thereof at the request, and by order 1808, which was read the first time; and, on of the Commander-in-chief of the Southern notion, ordered, that the further consideration of Army. he said bill be postponed until the next session
Another message was received from the Seof Congress.
nate, informing the House that the Senate recede The House then took into consideration the from their fourth amendment to the Judges and imendments to the Constitution, as amended by Attorney General's Compensation bill; also, from he Senate; and after some time spent thereon, their third amendment to the Constitution of the he business was postponed till to-morrow. United States; and do insist on the other amend
The House then proceeded to consider the ments to the said articles disagreed to by the mendments reported yesterday, by the Commit- House ; and that they have agreed to a conferee of the Whole, to the bill allowing compensa-ence on this subject. ion to the Judges and Attorney General, when he salary of 4,000 dollars to the Chief Justice, report from the committee on the memorial and
The House then proceeded to consider the Whole, was reduced to 3,500; and some other petition of the public creditors of Pennsylvania; imilar alterations were made, when it was or
after which, they came to the following resoluered that the bill be engrossed; and, after some ime, the bill was read a third time and passed (provision for the support of public credit as a matter of
Resolved, That this House consider an adequate he House. Adjourned.
high importance to the national honor and prosperity.
Resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury be Monday, September 21.
directed to prepare a plan for that purpose, and to
report the same to this House at its next meeting. A message from the Senate informed the
On motion, it was then ordered, that the SecreIouse, that they recede from their amendment tary of the Treasury be directed to apply to the o the bill for allowing compensation to the Presi- Supreme Executives of the several States, for ent and Vice President of the United States; statements of their public debts-of the funds hat they have also passed the Judges' Compen- provided for the payment, in whole or in part, of ation bill, with several amendments; to which the principal and interest thereof; and of the hey request the concurrence of the House.
amount of the loan-office certificates, or other The House then proceeded to consider the public securities of the United States, in the mendments:
State Treasuries respectively; and that he report Whereupon, Resolved, That this House agree to the House such of said documents as he may
the first, second, and third amendments; and obtain, at the next session of Congress. isagree to the fourth amendment of the said bill.
The House then proceeded to reconsider such Another message from the Senate was received, of the amendments to the Judiciary bill as had aforming the House, that they have agreed to been disagreed to by the Senate; and adopted he following resolution; to which they desire them without debate. he concurrence of the House.
The report of the Secretary of the Treasury Resolved, That it be recommended to the Legisla- on the necessary appropriations for the current ires of the several States, to pass laws making it ex-year was received, read, and referred to Messrs.
gentlemen saw it in the same light, he flattered the vote of the two branches of the Legislature this city was not central, which had been so often ercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatso
H. OF R.]
[SEPTEMBER, 1789. WaDSWORTH, SMITH, (of Maryland,) and Smith, urged, they would be guided by arguments spring(of South Carolina.)
ing from a superior source. The House then resumed the consideration of He would proceed to state the reasons which the amendments proposed by the Senate to the induced him to be of this opinion: it is declared several articles of amendments to the Constitu- in the Constitution, that neither House, during tion of the United States ; some of which they the session of Congress, shall, without the conagreed to, and disagreed to others, two-thirds of sent of the other, adjourn for more than three the members present concurring in each vote: days; nor to any place than that in which the whereupon, a committee of conference was de- two Houses shall be sitting; from hence he insired with the Senate on the subject-matter of the ferred, that the two Houses, by a concurrence, amendments disagreed to; and Messrs. Madison, could adjourn for more than three days, and to SHERMAN, and VINING, were appointed managers any other place which they thought proper ; by on the part of the House.
the other clause he had mentioned, the Executive Mr. JACKSON moved for leave to bring in a bill power is restrained from any interference with the to alter the time of the annual meeting of Con- Legislative on this subject; hence, he concluded gress; this motion was agreed to.
it would be dangerous to attempt to give to the
President a power which the Constitution exSEAT OF GOVERNMENT.
pressly denied him. He did not suppose that the And then the House proceeded to consider the attempt to vest the Executive with a power over bill to establish the seat of Government of the the adjournment of the Legislature would absoUnited States, which lay on the table, with the lutely convey the power, but he conceived it amendments, as reported by the Committee of the wrong to make the experiment. He submitted i whole House.
to those gentlemen who were attached to the sue Mr. Smith proposed to confine the choice of a cess of the bill, how far an unconstitutional decla situation on the banks of the Susquehanna, be- ration may impede its passage through the other tween Checkiselungo creek and the mouth of the branch of the Legislature. river. He was seconded by Mr. SENEY.
It has been supposed by some, that the seat of Mr. HARTLEY hoped the committee would limit Government may be at a place different from that it as near the spot contemplated as possible. where the Congress sits; and, although the former
Mr: Heister said, he moved, the other day, for may be established by law, the Legislature might a particular spot on the river, which he conceived remove elsewhere; he could not subscribe to this entitled to a preference; if the proposed motion doctrine. What is the Government of the United obtained, that place would be excluded, and he States for which a seat is to be provided? Wil should hesitate respecting his vote upon the bill. not the Government necessarily comprehend the Mr. Seney by no means wished to embarrass Congress as a part ? In arbitrary Governments
. the committee; if the motion proposed, would, the residence of the monarch may be styled the any how, have that effect, he should withdraw his seat of Government, because he is within himsecond. Mr. Madison felt himself compelled to move cial power; the same may be said of the resi:
self the supreme Legislative, Executive, and Judi for striking out that part of the bill which pro- dence of a limited monarchy, where the efficiency vided
that the temporary residence of Congress of the Executive operates, in a great degree in should continue at New York; as he conceived it the exclusion of the Legislative authority ; but in irreconcilable with the spirit of the Constitution, such a Government as ours, according to the legal should have given the bill no further opposition; ment must include the Legislative power
; so the and now he did not mean to enter on the merits term Administration, which in other countries i
From the Constitution, it appeared that the con- Government, is used here for both the Executive currence of the two Houses of Congress was suffi- and Legislative branches; we, in official comments cient to enable them to adjourn
from one place to nications, say Legislative Administration of Bk another; nay, the legal consent of the President ecutive Administration, according as the create was
, in some degree, prescribed in the 7th section the other is employed in the exercise of its Com of article ist
, where it is declared, that every stitutional powers. He mentioned these circums order, resolution, or vote, to which the concur-stances to show that they ought not to look for rence of the Senate and House of Representa- | the meaning of terms used in the laws and Car tives may be necessary, (except on a question of stitution of the United States, into the accept of the United States, and approved by him, before and Government
were different from that of Car adjournment,) shall be presented to the President |tion of them in other countries, whose situatie fore, to adjourn by law, is a violation of that part conclude that the seat of Government would me of the Constitution which gives the power
, exclu- at that place where both the Executive and Lege sively, to the two branches of the
Legislature. If lative bodies are fixed; and this depended corner and, however little they valued the reflection thallion; it was, that giving Congress authority leaders
[H. OF R. ever over such district as may, by cession of par- and that their presence makes the seat of Governticular States, and the acceptance of Congress, ment; yet, at the same time, he is an advocate become the seat of the Government of the United for fixing a permanent seat of Government; there States; this was the only place where any thing is surely some inconsistency in these ideas. Alrespecting the seat of Government was men-though Congress shall have fixed a permanent tioned; and would any gentleman contend that seat of Government, they retain the power of reCongress might have a seat of Government over moving to where they think proper; hence, if which they are empowered to exercise exclusive they remove from their permanent seat, there belegislation, and yet reside at the distance of two or comes two seats of Government; now, which is 300 miles from it? Such a construction would the one that will have a legal operation, as it recontradict the plain and evident meaning of the spects those who are to transact business at the Constitution, and as such was inadmissible. seat of Government? Here is nothing to restrain
He hoped these observations would be attended them in this instance more than in the other ; so to; and did not doubt but if seen in their true that his arguments apply with equal force against light they would induce the House to reject that both permanent and temporary residence. part of the bill which he moved to have struck But he did not think the presence of the Legisout.
lature was an absolute condition of any place beMr. SHERMAN acknowledged that Congress posing the seat of Government. If that doctrine was sessed the power of adjournment as it respected true, this city would, or would not, be the seat of time and place, independent of the President; but Government, as Congress was in session or in rehe conceived there was a propriety in declaring cess. This was an idea teeming with inconvewhere the seat of Government should be by law, niences; he supposed the other construction the in order that those officers who were called upon more rational, as that the seat of Government was by the Constitution to be present at the seat determined by the residence of the Executive, the of Government might know where to repair. great officers of Government, the Judges, and the He admitted that Congress, notwithstanding this foreign Ministers, public archives, &c. The Ledeclaration in the law, might adjourn to some gislature might find it convenient to sit at some other place.
other place, without obliging all the suite of the Mr. Page would inquire where was the neces Government to remove with them. If this was sity of adherence to a clause which its warmest the true construction, the majority of the Senate advocates must allow had no binding force as it and House of Representatives would have it in related to its main object, namely, the continu- their power to repeal the Judicial bill
, or what ince of the two Houses to sit in this city ? amounted to the same thing, defeat its execution,
Mr. LAWRENCE was in hopes that the opposi- independent of the power of the President, by tion to the bill had ceased, at least he did not ex- removing from place to place, so that the Judges pect that arguments of this kind would be brought could not follow them to hold the Supreme Courts; forward at this time. The gentlemen who op- or they might adjourn, and by their adjournment, posed the clause, declaring the temporary resi- annihilate the seat of Government, where only lence to be at New York, as contrary to the Con- those courts could be held. titution, urged nothing against it when it was Mr. Madison begged leave to explain. The leverallý proposed to be at Wilmington and Phil- gentleman last up had charged him with incondelphia ; if he did not mistake, the gentlemen sistency, as it respected his former vote and preToted in favor of those places. From hence he sent observations. He would insist that he might vas led to believe that a legal declaration on this have voted in the manner expressed, and yet have voint was not at that time unconstitutional, even been perfectly consistent; because, when an obn their opinion; and if it would have been proper jectionable clause is under consideration, it bevith respect to one place, he could not think it comes proper for its opponents to agree to mproper as it respected another.
every thing they conceive to be an amendment, But he was induced to make this declaration, in in order that if the proposition passes it may pass rder to give operation to some of the laws they in the least imperfect form. ad already passed. The law establishing the It has been said, that the Supreme Courts must udicial Courts of the United States made it the be held at the seat of Government. True ; but uty of the Judges to hold the Supreme Court at the Judges will know where they are to meet ne seat of Government: how are they to discover without this declaration for the common accepthere the seat of Government is unless it be de-ation of the word will lead them to hold the sitlared ? And admitting that the seat of Govern- ting of the court in the city of New York. He ient is defined best by being at the place where could not, as an American, with an eye to the ongress deliberates, how will it be ascertained if American Constitution and the American lanse should happen not to be in session ? And this guage, separate the Legislative power from that ay be the case, for leave is already given to alter of the Government; it appeared to him, to be the he time of our annual meeting, and how far that most essential part of any free Government, but eriod may be extended into the ensuing year is much the most extensive and essential in the GoItogether unknown.
vernment of the United States. The honorable gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Mr. AMEs was of opinion, with the gentleman (Adison) tells us, that Congress have a right to from New York, (Mr. LAWRENCE,) that the objecdjourn, by concurrence, to where they please, 'tion went equally against the permanent and tem
Mr. CARROLL said, he felt himself under peck gentlemen ought to attend to the conveniency ant question. The House had determined that
H. OF R.]
[SEPTEMBER, 1789 porary residence of Congress; but he believed the point of view, they ought to consider the situation gentleman from Virginia meant to confine himself of foreign ministers and others, who might have to what he had stated, namely, that the measure business to transact with any branch of the Gorwas unconstitutional. He admired the abilities
ernment. of the honorable gentleman, and doubted not but Mr. Lee was convinced the clause was unconthe Constitution was the better in consequence of stitutional, but if it was not, it was unnecessary, those abilities having been employed in its forma. The late Congress fixed this city the seat of Goftion; but he was not disposed to pay implicit def- ernment of the United States; they appointed erence to that gentleman's expositions of that in the present Government to meet here, and, by so strument. There were but few on this floor who doing, made it the seat of Government; it wil were in Convention, and who could say what was retain this property until Congress shall adjour the intention with which every clause was insert- to meet elsewhere, after which it loses it as a ed. He was content to take it as he found it; and matter of course. Where, then, is the use of a could say with the gentleman, as an American, tempting to renew the establishment by law? ! with an eye to that Constitution, the language of is not pretended that the law will prevent Com liberty in his mouth, and the love of it in his heart, gress from adjourning elsewhere ; then what ef he hoped it would never be considered, either fect can it have in favor of the city it is intended within or without these walls, that the two Houses to secure ? of Congress are the Government of the United Mr. Jackson had been against the bill from States. He contemplated this Government as a the beginning, and had fairly and openly opposed Government of laws, and not of men. The ma- it; but since it had been carried against him upa, kers of them could command nothing as to them- full debate, he would acquiesce in the decisione selves; the Executive, with the Judges, were the House, conceiving it to be the voice of his those who exercised 'the authority of the law, country. He thought the present objection, as to and to them the term most properly applied; its Constitutionality, not well founded ; but if but he would not descend minutely into this in- is well founded, it went against the whole bil quiry ; he trusted the inconsistency of the idea It had been said the clause was unnecessary; he was so apparent as to induce the gentleman to believed, if it did no good, it did no harm; and give it up
as it was so far approved of, he would give it his He stated, that the seat of Government must vote. depend upon the circumstances mentioned by the Mr. Boudinot conceived the objection to be gentleman from New York, or upon a law. well founded; and expected, as it was running a Without it was the case, that the seat of Govern- risk of losing the whole bill, on account of a ment was fixed and known, how could the Su-doubtful clause, the friends to the permanent seal preme Courts be held? Or how could the electors would concur in striking it out. of the President transmit their votes sealed to the seat of Government, as required by the Consti- tained of its Constitutionality, he would vote
said, as there were doubts entertution? Mr. Madison contended that the words in the uncentral, that he could not consider it as the pro
against the clause; moreover, New York was so Constitution, alluded to by the gentleman, sup- per place for even the temporary seat of Goveraported his construction. It declared that the Elec-ment. tors should transmit their votes sealed to the seat of Government of the United States, directed to put, and passed in the negative ; twenty-three for.
The question on striking out the clause was the President of the Senate; that the President and twenty-nine against it. of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives
, open all the votes, “ permanent” as unnecessary, and a term ur*
Mr. Madison proposed to strike out the word &c. The Senate appear from this to be a part of known to the Constitution. the Government; and their residence, with that of the House of Representatives, is supposed in the negative-twenty-four for, and went
The question being put thereon, it passed also to be the seat of Government.
eight against it.
, man had seemed to suppose, that the two Houses engrossed and read a third time to-morrow. di
The bill was then agreed to, and ordered to be of Congress were the Government; but that the ter which the House adjourned. Legislative powers of the two Houses formed a part of the Government of the United States. Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, had attended to
Tuesday, September 22. the arguments, and was clearly of opinion that
SEAT OF GOVERNMENT. that required the consent of the President, as Government of the United States was relaciji
The engrossed bill to establish the seat of well as our congress; they alone were but tone third time; and the question was, Shall this til third of the Government, and not even that com- pass ?
, that it was perfectly Constitutional; and, in this / United States should be on the Susquehanna