Amendments to the Constitution.

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Amendments to the Constitution.

either two-thirds of this House or three-fourths of the State Legislatures. I have considered this subject with some degree of attention, and, upon the whole, am inclined to think the Constitution stands very well as it is.

[AUGUST, 1789.

pected, and therefore, on the principles of the majority, ought to be adopted.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, said he hoped it would be agreed to; that eight States had expressed their desires on this head, and all of them wished the General Government to relinquish their control over the elections. The eight States he alluded to were New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Vir

Mr. GERRY was sorry that gentlemen objected to the time and manner of introducing this amendment, because it was too important in its nature to be defeated by want of form. He hoped, and he understood it to be the sense of the House,ginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina. that each amendment should stand upon its own ground; if this was, therefore, examined on its own merits, it might stand or fall as it deserved, and there would be no cause of complaint on the score of inattention.

His colleague (Mr. AMES) objected to the amendment, because he thought no Legislature was without the power of determining the mode of its own appointment; but he would find, if he turned to the constitution of the State he was a representative of, that the times, places, and manner of choosing members of their Senate and Council were prescribed therein.

Why, said he, are gentlemen desirous of retaining this power? Is it because it gives energy to the Government? It certainly has no such tendency; then why retain a clause so obnoxious to almost every State? But this provision may be necessary in order to establish a Government of an arbitrary kind, to which the present system is pointed in no very indirect manner: in this way, indeed, it may be useful. If the United States are desirous of controlling the elections of the people, they will, in the first place, by virtue of the powers given them by the 4th sect. of the 1st art., abolish the mode of balloting; then every person must publicly announce his vote, and it would then frequently happen that he would be obliged to vote for a man, or "the friend of a man," to whom he was under obligations. If the Government grows desirous of being arbitrary, elections will be ordered at remote places, where their friends alone will attend. Gentlemen will tell me that these things are not to be apprehended; but if they say that the Government has the power of doing them, they have no right to say the Government will never exercise such powers, because it is presumable that they will administer the Constitution at one time or another with all its powers; and whenever that time arrives, farewell to the rights of the people, even to elect their own representatives.

Mr. STONE called upon gentlemen to show what confederated Government had the power of determining on the mode of their own election. He apprehended there were none; for the representatives of States were chosen by the States in the manner they pleased. He was not afraid that the General Government would abuse this power, and as little afraid that the States would; but he thought it was in the order of things that the power should vest in the States respectively, because they can vary their regulations to accommodate the people in a more convenient manner than can be done in any general law whatever. He thought the amendment was generally ex

Mr. CARROLL denied that Maryland had expressed the desire attributed to her.

Mr. FITZSIMONS.-The remark was not just as it respected Pennsylvania.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, said the Convention of Maryland appointed a committee to recommend amendments, and among them was the one now under consideration.

Mr. STONE replied there was nothing of the kind noticed on the journals of that body.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, did not know how they came into the world, but he had certainly seen them. As to Pennsylvania, there was a very considerable minority, he understood onethird, who had recommended the amendment. Now, taking all circumstances into consideration, it might be fairly inferred that a majority of the United States were in favor of this amendment. He had studied to make himself acquainted with this particular subject, and all that he had ever heard in defence of the power being exercised by the General Government was, that it was necessary, in case any State neglected, or refused to make provision for the election. Now these cases were particularly excepted by the clause proposed by his honorable colleague, and therefore he presumed there was no good argument against it.

Mr. SEDGWICK moved to amend the motion, by giving the power to Congress to alter the times, manner, and places of holding elections, provided the States made improper ones; for as much injury might result to the Union from improper regulations, as from a neglect or refusal to make any. It is as much to be apprehended that the States may abuse their powers, as that the United States may make an improper use of theirs.

Mr. AMES said that inadequate regulations were equally injurious as having none, and that such an amendment as was now proposed would alter the Constitution: it would vest the supreme authority in places where it was never templated.

con

Mr. SHERMAN observed that the Convention were very unanimous in passing this clause; that it was an important provision, and if it was resigned, it would tend to subvert the Government.

Mr. MADISON was willing to make every amendment that was required by the States, which did not tend to destroy the principles and the efficacy of the Constitution; he conceived that the proposed amendment would have that tendency, he was therefore opposed to it.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, observed that the States had the sole regulation of elections, so far as it respected the President. Now he saw no

AUGUST, 1789.]

Amendments to the Constitution.

[H. OF R.

good reason why they should be indulged in this, His greatest apprehensions were, that the State and prohibited from the other. But the amend- Governments would oppose and thwart the genement did not go so far; it admitted that the Gen-ral one to such a degree as finally to overturn it. eral Government might interfere whenever the Now, to guard against this evil, he wished the State Legislature refused or neglected; and it Federal Government to possess every power might happen that the business would be neglected necessary to its existence. without any design to injure the administration of the General Government; it might be that the two branches of the Legislature could not agree, as happened, he believed, in the Legislature of New York, with respect to their choice of Senators at their late session.

Mr. TUCKER objected to Mr. SEDGWICK's motion of amendment, because it had a tendency to defeat the object of the propositton brought forward by his colleague. (Mr. BURKE.) The General Government would be the judge of inadequate or improper regulations: of consequence, they might interfere in any or every law which the States might pass on that subject.

He wished that the State Legislatures might be left to themselves to perform every thing they were competent to, without the guidance of Congress. He believed there was no great danger, but they knew how to pursue their own good, as well when left to their discretion, as they would under the direction of a superior. It seemed to him as if there was a strong propensity in this Government to take upon themselves the guidance of the State Governments, which to his mind implied a doubt of their capacity to govern themselves; now, his judgment was convinced that the particular State Governments could take care of themselves, and deserved more to be trusted than this did, because the right of the citizen was more secure under it.

Mr. BURKE was convinced there was a majority against him; but, nevertheless, he would do his duty, and propose such amendments as he conceived essential to secure the rights and liberties of his constituents. He begged permission to make an observation or two, not strictly in order; the first was on an assertion that had been repeated more than once in this House, "That this revolution, or adoption of the new Constitution, was agreeable to the public mind, and those who opposed it at first, are now satisfied with it." I believe, sir, said he, that many of those gentlemen who agreed to the ratification without amendments, did it from principles of patriotism, but they knew at the same time that they parted with their liberties; yet they had such reliance on the virtue of a future Congress, that they did not hesitate, expecting that they would be restored to them unimpaired, as soon as the Government commenced its operations conformably to what was mutually understood at the sealing and delivering up of those instruments.

It has been supposed that there is no danger to be apprehended from the General Government of an invasion of the rights of election. I will remind gentlemen of an instance in the Government of Holland. The patriots in that country fought no less strenuously for that prize than the people of America; yet, by giving to the States General powers not unlike those in this ConstituIt had been supposed by some States, that elect- tion, their right of representation was abolished. ing by districts was the most convenient mode of That they once possessed it is certain, and that choosing members to this House; others have they made as much talk about its importance as thought that the whole State ought to vote for we do; but now the right has ceased, all vacanthe whole number of members to be elected for cies are filled by the men in power. It is our that State. Congress might, under like impres-duty, therefore, to prevent our liberties from being sions, set their regulations aside. He had heard that many citizens of Virginia (which State was divided into eleven districts) supposed themselves abridged of nine-tenths of their privilege by being restrained to the choice of one man instead of ten, the number that State sends to this House. With respect to the election of Senators, the mode is fixed; every State but New York has established a precedent; there is, therefore, but little danger of any difficulty on this account. As to New York, she suffers by her want of decision; it is her own loss; but probably they may soon decide the point, and then no difficulty can possibly arise hereafter. From all these consi- The question was then put on Mr. BURKE'S derations, he was induced to hope Mr. SEDG-motion, and the yeas and nays being demanded WICK's motion would be negatived, and his col- by the Constitutional number, they were taken league's agreed to. as follows:

Mr. GOODHUE hoped the amendment never would obtain. Gentlemen should recollect there appeared a large majority against amendments, when the subject was first introduced, and he had no doubt but that majority still existed. Now, rather than this amendment should take effect, he would vote against all that had been agreed to.

fooled away in a similar manner; consequently, we ought to adopt the clause which secures to the General Government every thing that ought to be required.

Mr. MADISON observed, that it was the State Governments in the Seven United Provinces which had assumed to themselves the power of filling vacancies, and not the General Government; therefore the gentleman's application did not hold.

The question on Mr. SEDGWICK's motion for amending Mr. BURKE's proposition, was put and lost.

YEAS-Messrs. Burke, Coles, Floyd, Gerry, Griffin, Grout, Hathorn, Heister, Jackson, Livermore, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Seney, Sylvester, Smith, of South Carolina, Stone, Sumter, Thatcher and Tucker-23.

NAYS-Messrs. Ames, Benson, Boudinot, Brown, Cadwalader, Carroll, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Foster, Gale,

H. OF R.]

Amendments to the Constitution.

Gilman, Goodhue, Hartley, Lawrence, Lee, Madison,
Muhlenberg, Schureman, Scott, Sedgwick, Sherman,
Sinnickson, Smith, of Maryland, Sturgis, Trumbull,
Vining, Wadsworth and Wynkoop-28.

So it was determined in the negative.
The House then resumed the consideration of
the proposition respecting the apportioning of the
representation to a certain ratio, proposed by Mr.
AMES.

[AUGUST, 1789.

the expedition we can possibly give it. I would prefer putting a finishing hand to what has been already agreed to, and refer this to the Committee of eleven for their consideration.

Mr. TUCKER.-This proposition was referred to the committee, along with many others in the gross, but the Committee of eleven declined reporting upon it. I understood it to be in any gentleman's power to bring it forward when he thought When, after some desultory conversation, it proper, and it was under this influence that I prowas agreed to, as follows: "After the first enume-posed it, nor do I conceive it to be an improper ration, required by the first article of the Consti- time. The House is engaged in the discussion of tution, there shall be one representative for every amendments; they have made some progress, and thirty thousand, until the number shall amount to I wish them to go on and complete what they one hundred. After which, the proportion shall have begun. This may be added without inconbe so regulated by Congress, that there shall be venience, if it meet the sense of the House; but not less than one hundred representatives, nor if it does not, I wish my constituents to be less than one representative for every forty thou- acquainted with our decision on the whole subsand persons, until the number of representatives |ject, and therefore hope it may be decided upon shall amount to two hundred, after which, the at this time. proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall not be less than two hundred representatives, nor less than one representative for fifty thousand persons."

After which the House adjourned.

SATURDAY, August 22.

Memorials from the inhabitants of Trenton, in New Jersey, Lancaster, and Yorktown, in Pennsylvania, were presented, stating their advantages in soil, climate, situation, population, cultivation, and buildings; and praying that the permanent seat of Congress may be established at the same. The memorials were ordered to lie on the table. AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION. The House resumed the consideration of the amendments to the Constitution.

Mr. JACKSON.-The gentleman has an undoubted right to bring forward the proposition; but I differ greatly with respect to its propriety. I hope, sir, the experience we have had will be sufficient to prevent us from ever agreeing to a relinquishment of such an essential power. The requisitions of the former Congress were ineffectual to obtain supplies; they remain to this day neglected by several States. If a sense of common danger, if war, and that a war of the noblest kind, a contest for liberty, were not sufficient to stimulate the States to a prompt compliance, when the means were abundant, by reason of the immense quantities of paper medium, can we ever expect an acquiescence to a requisition in future, when the only stimulus is honesty, to enable the Confederation to discharge the debts of the late war?

But suppose requisitions were likely to be, in some degree, complied with, (which, by the way, I never can admit,) in every case where a State had neglected or refused to furnish its quota, Con

Mr. TUCKER moved the following as a proposition to be added to the same: "The Congress shall never impose direct taxes but where the moneys arising from the duties, imposts, and ex-gress must come in, assess, and collect it. Now, cise, are insufficient for the public exigencies, nor then until Congress shall have made a requisition upon the States to assess, levy, and pay their respective proportions of such requisitions. And in case any State shall neglect or refuse to pay its proportion, pursuant to such requisition, then Congress may assess and levy such State's proportion, together with the interest thereon, at the rate of six per cent. per annum, from the time of payment prescribed by such requisition."

Mr. PAGE said, that he hoped every amendment to the Constitution would be considered separately in the manner this was proposed, but he wished them considered fully; it ought to have been referred to the committee of eleven, reported upon, and then to the Committee of the Whole. This was the manner in which the House had decided upon all those already agreed to; and this ought to be the manner in which this should be decided; he should be sorry to delay what was so nearly completed on any account. The House has but little time to sit, and the subject has to go before the Senate, therefore it requires of us all

in every such case, I venture to affirm that jealousies would be excited, discontent would prevail, and civil wars break out. What less can gentlemen picture to themselves, when a Government has refused to perform its obligations, but that it will support its measures by the point of the bayonet ?

Without the power of raising money to defray the expenses of Government, how are we to be secure against foreign invasion? What! can a Government exert itself, with its sinews torn from it? We can expect neither strength nor exertion; and without these are acquired and preserved, our union will not be lasting; we shall be rent asunder by intestine commotion, or exterior assault; and when that period arrives, we may bid adieu to all the blessings we have purchased at the price of our fortunes, and the blood of our worthiest heroes.

Mr. LIVERMORE thought this an amendment of more importance than any yet obtained; that it was recommended by five or six States, and therefore ought to engage their most serious considera

AUGUST, 1789.]

Amendments to the Constitution.

tion. It had been supposed that the United States would not attempt to levy direct taxes; but this was certainly a mistake. He believed nothing but the difficulty of managing the subject would deter them. The modes of levying and collecting taxes pursued by the several States are so various, that it is an insuperable obstacle to an attempt by the General Government.

He was sensible that the requisitions of the former Congress had not been fully complied with, and the defect of the Confederation was, that the Government had no powers to enforce a compliance. The proposition now under consideration obviated that difficulty. Suppose one or two States refused to comply, certainly the force of the others could compel them, and that is all that ought to be required; because it is not to be supposed that a majority of the States will refuse, as such an opposition must destroy the Union. He hoped the States would be left to furnish their quotas in a manner the most easy to themselves, as was requested by more than half of the present Union.

Unless something more effectual was done to improve the Constitution, he knew his constituents would be dissatisfied. As to the amendments already agreed to, they would not value them more than a pinch of snuff; they went to secure rights never in danger.

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ed by the General Government, the State Governments would be annihilated. If every resource is taken from them, what remains in the power of the States for their support, or for the extinguishment of their domestic debt?

Mr. GERRY thought if the proposition was referred, that it ought to go to a Committee of the Whole, for he wished it to have a full and candid discussion. He would have something left in the power of every State to support itself, independent of the United States, and therefore was not satisfied with the amendment proposed. The Constitution, in its original state, gives to Congress the power of levying and collecting taxes, duties, imposts, and excise. The fault here is, that every thing is relinquished to the General Government. Now, the amendment gives the same power, with qualification, that there shall have been a previous requisition. This by no means came up to his idea; he thought that some particular revenue ought to be secured to the States, so as to enable them to support themselves.

He apprehended, when this clause in the Constitution was under the consideration of the several State conventions, they would not so readily have ratified it, if they had considered it more fully in the point of view in which he had now placed it; but if they had ratified it, it would have Mr. PAGE wished the proposition might be re-been under a conviction that Congress would adcommitted, for he was certain there was neither time nor inclination to add it to those already agreed upon.

mit such amendments as were necessary to the existence of the State Governments. At present, the States are divested of every means to support He observed that the warmest friends to amend- themselves. If they discover a new source of ments differ in opinion on this subject; many of revenue, after Congress shall have diverted all the them have ceased urging it, while others have be- old ones into their treasury, the rapacity of the come strenuous advocates for the reverse. The General Government can take that from them most judicious and discerning men now declare also. The States can have recourse to no tax, that the Government ought never to part with duty, impost, or excise, but what may be taken this power. For his part, experience had con- from them whenever the Congress shall be so disvinced him that no reliance was to be had on re-posed; and yet gentlemen must see that the anniquisitions, when the States had treated them with hilation of the State Governments will be followcontempt in the hour of danger, and had abundant ed by the ruin of this. means of compliance. The public credit stood at this moment in the utmost need of support, and he could not consent to throw down one of its strongest props. He thought there was no danger of an abuse of this power, for the Government would not have recourse to it while the Treasury could be supplied from any other source; and when they did, they would be studious of adapting their law to the convenience of the States. He hoped, when the gentleman returned home to New Hampshire, his constituents would give him credit for his exertions, and be better satisfied 'with the amendments than he now supposed them to be.

Mr. SUMTER felt himself so sensibly impressed with the importance of the subject, that if he apprehended the proposition would not have a fair discussion at this time, he would second the motion of commitment, and had not a doubt but the House would acquiesce in it.

Gentlemen had said that the States had this business much at heart. Yes, he would venture to say more, that if the power was not relinquish-I

Now, what is the consequence of the amendment? Either the States will or will not comply with the requisitions. If they comply, they voluntarily surrender their means of support; if they refuse, the arms of Congress are raised to compel them, which, in all probability, may lay the foundation for civil war. What umbrage must it give every individual to have two sets of collectors and tax-gatherers surrounding his doors; the people then soured, and a direct refusal by the Legislature, will be the occasion of perpetual discord. He wished to alter this proposition in such a manner as to secure the support of the Federal Government and the State Governments likewise, and therefore wished the amendment referred to a Committee of the whole House.

Mr. TUCKER.-I do not see the arguments in favor of giving Congress this power in so forcible a light as some gentlemen do. It will be to erect an imperium in imperio, which is generally considered to be subversive of all Government. At any time that Congress shall exercise this power, it will raise commotions in the States; whereas,