tleman meant to strike out the six dollars, in order to make a discrimination between the members of this House and the Senate; if so, he had better move to increase the compensation of the Senators, and here he would second him, because he thought their services required more. He would once more mention his fears relative to a small sum. He dreaded the abuse of economy, and was suspicious that a parsimonious provision would throw the Government into the hands of bad men, by which the people might lose every thing they now held dear. He thought few would serve for a smaller sum than he would, and he was confident the allowance was as moderate as any man could expect. Gentlemen who come a great distance, are put to considerable expense, and their domestic arrangements destroyed: instead of laying up money by their attendance here, it was almost certain they would spend part of their private estates. [AUGUST, 1789. and ten shillings a day, and yet they were served by good men. He had been informed that it was thought by men of sense and intelligence, that although six dollars might not be too great an allowance for the services of the members of this House, yet, considering the present circumstances of the people, it would be good policy to reduce the same. He inclined to this opinion himself. Impressed with these ideas, and knowing that it was generally the opinion of the people, that six dollars was more than a moderate compensation to the members of this House, he should support the motion for striking out with a view to reduce the sum. Mr. VINING said, the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. CARROLL) had taken the subject up in a proper point of view, by inquiring into the point of order. He begged gentlemen to consider the manner in which the subject had been discussed If it is meant that the Republic should be pro-mittee; every decision had been the same; why already twice in the House, and twice in comvided with good and wholesome laws, a proper should the point so often determined, be again provision should be made to bring into the councils of the Union such men as are qualified to seagitated? It is contrary to all Parliamentary procure them well; it is not to be expected that the ceeding, and the House will never know when spirit of patriotism will lead a man into the perprinciples are settled. petual habit of making such exertions and sacrifices as are too often necessary in the hour of dan-erate compensation, if a member is to reside at ger. No man ought to be called into the services admit that they could live for less, in some more the metropolis of the United States. He would of his country, and receive less than will defray central part of the country; but the gentlemen the expenses he incurs by performing his duty. If from the Eastward should recollect that a small he does, the public affairs, in the time of tranquil- allowance would be an argument for removing lity, will get exclusively into the hands of nabobs and aspiring men, who will lay the foundation of Congress from this city, and when that time aristocracy, and reduce their equals to the capaci- till then. arrived, he should consent to a lower sum, but not ty of menial servants or slaves. He was certain that six dollars was but a mod Mr. FITZSIMONS did not expect to hear the subject discussed again; he thought it unnecessary, because he believed every gentleman would decide more upon his own feelings, than upon the arguments that could be adduced; he would however just remind the committee, that six dollars was about the average of what the members from the several States had under the late Confederation. Mr. SEDGWICK Seconded the motion for striking out. He had endeavored to view this subject impartially; uninfluenced by any local considerations or circumstances; and under these impressions, he was led to believe, from all the information he had received, whether from abroad, or from an examination in his own mind, of the effects it would produce, that it would be expedient to establish the compensation at a lower sum. He really did Mr. SEDGWICK.-According to the observation not see any solid ground for the apprehensions made by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, it which his worthy friend from Virginia (Mr. will be deemed insolent to reason on this subject: PAGE) had discovered; he had heard it often said, what I offered before, I brought forward with that if salaries and allowances to public officers candor; but shall we be precluded from debate, were small, you would not be able to command because a subject has been once discussed? Sir, the services of good men; but it was contradicted when I moved, some days ago, to reduce the pay by the fact. He would instance the late appoint- of the members to five dollars, I was rather indifments, and ask gentlemen, whether they conceiv-ferent about it; but since then, I have been so well ed better men could have been procured, if the compensation had been doubled? If it was fair to reason by experience and analogy, he should conclude there would be no difficulty in procuring good and respectable men, to serve in this House, at a less rate than six dollars per day. He had never yet observed that men of small property shrunk from the expense of serving in the councils of their country. He thought the practice of the States was opposed to so high a compensation; many of the State Legislatures allowed their members a dollar convinced of the necessity there is for such a measure, that I cannot decline pressing it once more upon the committee. Mr. STONE thought the public mind would not be much influenced by the trifling difference be tween five and six dollars. They pay greater regard to the decisions of the House, on more important subjects. The gentleman from Massachusetts says his correspondents inform him, that the public mind is agitated on this subject; if we are to judge what is the state of the public mind from what our friends say, I should be apt to think 1 the public mind quite unconcerned on the present question; for, among all my correspondents, not one has deigned to notice it. The question was now taken on striking out, and there appeared sixteen in favor of it, and thirty-five against it: so the motion passed in the negative. Mr. MADISON renewed the motion for making a difference in the pay of the members of the Senate and House of Representatives; which was also lost. Mr. GOODHUE moved to strike out twelve dollars, the pay assigned the Speaker, and insert ten. Mr. PAGE hoped this motion would share the fate of the two last; he was certain that twelve dollars was not more than a compensation for the Speaker's services; three times the sum would not induce him to accept such a situation. Mr. BURKE was against the motion, because he thought that twelve dollars was not a reward for the Speaker's labor. The Speaker of the House of Commons in England, has an annual salary of £8,000 sterling. Mr. CARROLL thought the Chair of the House of Representatives was one of the most important and dignified offices under the Government, and as such ought to be provided for. This motion was lost by a large majority. THURSDAY, August 6. CONGRESS LIBRARY. Mr. GERRY moved that a committee be appointed to report a catalogue of books necessary for the use of Congress, with an estimate of the expense, and the best mode of procuring them. Ordered to lie on the table. A message from the Senate informed the House, that they insisted on the amendment to the Treasury bill, respecting the removability of the Secretary by the President. Also, that they had agreed to the resolution of the House, for appointing a committee to report what business ought to be finished previous to the adjournment, and appointed Messrs. STRONG, ELLSWORTH, and CARROLL, on their part. COMPENSATION OF MEMBERS. [H. OF R. uate his vote by calling the yeas and nays upon the question. Mr. GERRY. I was not present when the subject was last before the House, therefore, I cannot say what was understood on this point; but I have seen some account of the debate in the papers, from which I am led to believe, that gentlemen view this matter in a very narrow point of light. It appears to me a question in which one's popularity is more concerned than any thing else. Gentlemen, perhaps, suppose that by voting for five instead of six dollars they will establish such a character for economy and patriotism as will redound to their honor; but I can easily conceive, that men of knowledge and sentiment, yes, our constituents in general, will discover, in a glaring light, the ruinous consequences of such a measure in a very short period. The difference of pay, as it now stands in the bill, and what my colleague has moved for, is one dollar a day, and on this important question the yeas and nays are to be called. For my part, I shall deliver my sentiments freely; I am willing to leave the question to the people to decide; I care not about the pay, and can assure them I never wish to have a seat in this House again: but I wish to guard against the subversion of the public liberty-against the introduction of pensions-against exposing the Legislature to corruption. I would have gentlemen consider the principles upon which they are to pay the President, their Judges, and themselves; the Constitution says, the members of this House, and the Senate, shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. The President shall receive, at stated times, a compensation for his services, neither to be increased nor diminished; the Judges shall, at stated times, receive for their services a compensation, not to be diminished during their continuance in office; hence it appears, that the provision for the three branches is to be made on the same principle, namely, a compensation for their services. Now, though it is certainly a little embarrassing that we should have to estimate the value of our own services, yet we are bound to do it, and that upon a fixed principle. It has been said, that the Parliament of Britain receive no pay. This may be the case, but if they examine back, they will find that pay, of a mark per day, was regularly established for them. If we consider the difference of the value of money two or three centuries ago, we shall find this no inconsiderable allowance. But the policy of the British ministry has been, of late, to extend the influence of the Crown; the pay of members has dropped into in-disuse; but every one knows by what means a majority in Parliament is obtained and secured. Now, such is the extent of these means, that I venture to say, two important members of the House of Commons receive more per annum than the whole compensation given to the members of both Houses of Congress. I leave it to the world to judge, whether the people are likely to be better served by men who receive their wages of the Monarch, and who own themselves the servants The House then again went into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill for allowing a compensation to the members of Congress; and, after some time spent therein, the committee rose, and reported the bill as amended: then the House proceeded to consider the same. Mr. THATCHER moved to insert five dollars stead of six, as the pay of the members. Mr. PARTRIDGE observed, that money was more valuable now than it had been for some years past; if, therefore, six dollars was the average of what the delegates received heretofore, five dollars was now equal to that sum. In short, he was convinced that six dollars was too much, and, in justice to his constituents, and his own conscience, he would vote against it, and perpet H. OF R.] Compensation of Members. [AUGUST, 1789. men of abilities in every rank of life; or if that cannot be obtained, I would have all that part of the bill struck out, which relates to a compensation for the services of the members of this House. of the Crown, or by those who are immediately the allowance such, as to secure the services of paid by and dependent upon themselves. While Britain had funds enough to support this plan, they did tolerably well; but when the evil extended itself, and they feared they could no longer continue it without having recourse to other means, they bethought themselves of unconstitutional ones; they were desirous of obtaining a revenue out of this country, and placing upon our establishment men whom they could not provide for at home. This cause lost them America, and this cause will lose them every dependency, where they attempt to play the like game. Mr. PAGE said, if gentlemen were satisfied that five dollars per day was enough to compensate them and defray their expenses, because they resided in a part of the Union where every thing was to be procured so much cheaper, they might receive that sum and leave the residue in the Treasury; by this means they would demonstrate their love of economy and disinterestedness. From this view, the importance of an independent Legislature may be seen. Will gentleMr. VINING thought gentlemen who were satismen then say, that to gratify a thoughtless regard fied with four or five dollars, might move to amend for economy, they will risk the most invaluable the clause, so as to make it read "not exceeding part of the Government? If gentlemen say it is six dollars per day," and then they might charge justice to their constituents, I am willing to ap-as much less as they deemed prudent. peal to their tribunal; let them know the reason Mr. BOUDINOT said, that whatever measures he upon which we act, and I will abide by their de-supported, he did it upon principle, not from a determination; but I am against being influenced sire of acquiring popularity; he was satisfied that by an apprehension that the people will disap-six dollars per day was not extravagant compenprove our conduct. I am not afraid of being left sation, but considering the situation of the counout, even if it were thought a disgrace to be left try, and the delicacy of their own situation, he out. I would risk that disgrace rather than agree would vote for five dollars, and he thought it sufto an establishment which I am convinced would ficient to secure men of ability. He asked the end in the ruin of the liberties of my fellow-citi- gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. GERRY) if zens. It would give my heart more satisfaction he expected the paltry consideration of getting a to fall the victim of popular resentment, than to dollar a day more, was to induce men of abilities establish my popularity at the expense of their and integrity to come forward and render their dearest interest. country their services? As I mentioned before, the principle upon He admitted that many gentlemen would find which we fix our own pay must go through the it difficult to bear all their expenses with five dolother branches of the Government. Your Presi- lars a day; but the compensation could not be on dent ought to be retrenched to 16 or 18,000 dol-a principle of discrimination, and therefore the lars; your Judges must be kept poor; and I leave House could not make particular provision for gentlemen to consider the happy consequences such gentlemen. Others might think a less sum arising from a dependent and corrupt Judiciary. sufficient, but no discrimination could here take Your Legislature may be corrupt, and your Ex-place; it was therefore necessary to accommodate, ecutive aspiring; but a firm, independent Judi- and upon this principle he hoped the House ciary will stop the course of devastation, at least would agree to five dollars per day; nor would it will shield individuals from rapine and injus- this be any variation from the principle established tice; but remove this security, and tyranny and by the committee who reported the bill. They oppression will rush forward as a flood, and over- had taken the pay of the delegates to the late whelm the country. Congress, and struck an average, which was found to be about five dollars and a half; they had reported six, but from the principles he had before mentioned, he thought it better to agree to five. It has been said, that the proposed compensation bears no proportion to the pay of the members of the State Legislatures; let me ask, do members of the State Legislatures forego their business? Do they leave their State and relinquish their occupations? Does the lawyer neglect his client? Does the merchant forego his commerce, or the farmer his agriculture? No, sir, the short period they are in session, and the opportunity of being in the vicinity affords them of going home, even during their sitting, enables them to pursue their other avocations, while performing their duties in the Legislature. But are not gentlemen who come from the most distant parts of the Union, compelled to relinquish every thing to attend here? The representation from the States is so small, that a member can be ill spared at any time; his absence must give him pain, when even that absence is necessary, but cannot be often allowed. In short, I would have Mr. GERRY.-The gentleman from Jersey, who was last up, says he does not think six dollars per day more than sufficient; but that he will, from a principle of delicacy, vote for five. I am as great a friend to delicacy as any man, but I would not sacrifice essentials to a false delicacy. It seems, from such sentiments, as if we were afraid to administer a Constitution which we are bound to administer. How are those sentiments reconcilable to the oath we have taken? The Constitution requires that we shall, by law, compensate the services of the members of both Houses. It has been said, that money is now more valuable than it was a few years since. I admit the fact, sir, but four dollars per day was better under the old plan of Government than six or eight under this, because a delegate was then engaged for the whole year, but now he is to attend at intervals. Some members were continued several years successively, and consequently found it more advantageous. But this mode of reasoning is fallacious; the question ought to be determined upon its own merits. But if gentlemen are for sacrifieing justice and propriety to delicacy, or any other motive, let them come forward and agree to what I mentioned before; let them strike out all that relates to their own compensation; they are called upon by their own arguments to do this. Mr. SEDGWICK did not rise to speak to the question, but merely to reply to some observations that have fallen from the gentlemen who opposed the present motion, particularly his colleague. The want of candor and liberality might render gentlemen unpleasant in their situation; but the consequences arising from such causes, were often still more unpleasant. His colleague had insinuated, in a pointed manner, that the gentlemen who were in favor of the reduction, were actuated by motives not only improper and unworthy of a man of character, but such as appear base to his mind. It was said, that those who opposed this reduction, did it merely to court popularity. Whether the gentleman, his colleague, who brought forward the motion to-day, sacrificed more at that shrine than his colleague who had opposed it, he left to those to determine who noticed their conduct; but he believed they could never be charged with such meanness. For his own part, if he had sacrificed in this way, as his conduct had always been consistent with his sentiments, it must have been known, and his character would long ere this have been blasted in the manner it would have justly deserved. If he had done it heretofore, he hoped the stigma would not be affixed upon him, for a conduct founded upon the solid and substantial reasons he had advanced when the subject was last before the House. Mr. BOUDINOT.-The gentleman from Massachusetts makes me say, that six dollars a day is not too much. I said it was not extravagant, but more than I thought was proper, upon due consideration of the circumstances of this country. This is still my opinion, and upon it I shall ground my vote. I believe no gentleman in this House regards his popularity, when set in competition with his duty; my conduct has ever been open, and I leave the world to judge from that what are my principles. I shall, therefore, take no further notice of what has been said on that subject, but conclude with wishing, for the honor of the House, and the dignity of the gentlemen, that all our debates may be conducted with candor and moderation. Mr. AMES wished the call for the yeas and nays was withdrawn; because he thought they lost their usefulness by a too frequent use. He was in favor of the motion, but he did not wish to have his name entered upon the minutes on that account. Mr. PARTRIDGE said, it was well known he never courted popularity; he never sought a seat in this House, or any other public body; but he [H. OF R. insisted upon his right, as a member, to call for the yeas and nays, when he thought the public interest might be benefited by it; however, as the bill was not to be finished to-day, he would waive that call. The question was taken on Mr. GOODHUE'S motion, and passed in the negative, by a large majority. The bill was ordered to be engrossed, and the House adjourned. FRIDAY, August 7. A petition of John White, late a commissioner for settling the accounts between the United States and the States of Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland, was presented to the House and read, praying that he may receive compensation for his services in that character, which, from public considerations, he was induced to render beyond the time limited by an ordinance of the late Congress. Ordered, That the said petition be referred to Messrs. SENEY, VINING, and HEISTER, that they do examine the matter thereof, and report the same with their opinion thereupon to the House. On motion, Ordered, That a committee be appointed to bring in a bill or bills, for the further encouragement of the commerce and navigation of the United States. And a committee was appointed, consisting of Messrs. GERRY, TRUMBULL, and BURKE. The following Message was received from the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, by General Knox, who delivered therewith sundry statements and papers relating to the same: Gentlemen of the House of Representatives : The business which has been under the consideration of Congress has been of so much importance, that I was unwilling to draw their attention from it to any other subject; but the disputes which exist between some of the United States and several powerful tribes of Indians, within the limits of the Union, and the hostilities which have, in several instances, been committed on the frontiers, seem to require the immediate interposition of the General Government. I have, therefore, directed the several statements and papers which have been submitted to me on this subject, by General Knox, to be laid before you for your information. While the measures of the Government ought to be calculated to protect its citizens from all injury and violence, a due regard should be extended to those Indian tribes whose happiness, in the course of events, so maof the United States. terially depends on the national justice and humanity would be most expedient to terminate all differences in If it should be the judgment of Congress that it the southern district, and to lay the foundation for future confidence, by an amicable treaty with the Indian tribes in that quarter, I think it proper to suggest the consideration of the expediency of instituting a temporary commission for that purpose, to consist of three persons, whose authority should expire with the occasion. How far such a measure, unassisted by posts, would be competent to the establishment and preservation of peace and tranquillity on the frontiers, is also a matter which merits your serious consideration. Along with this subject, I am induced to suggest another, with the national importance and necessity of which I am deeply impressed-I mean some uniform and effective system for the militia of the United States. It is unnecessary to offer arguments in recommendation of a measure on which the honor, safety, and wellbeing of our country so evidently and so essentially depend. But it may not be amiss to observe, that I am par ticularly anxious it should receive as early attention as circumstances will admit; because it is now in our power to avail ourselves of the military knowledge disseminated throughout the several States, by means of the many well instructed officers and soldiers of the late army; a resource which is daily diminishing by deaths and other causes. To suffer this peculiar advantage to pass away unimproved, would be to neglect an opportunity which will never again occur, unless unfortunately we should again be involved in a long and arduous war. GEO. WASHINGTON. NEW YORK, August 7, 1789. On motion, [August, 1789. five pounds; and the other judges, three hundred and fifty pounds. With regard to their abilities and integrity, he believed they were of the first rank; at least, he never knew a want of the best characters to fill those offices for such compensations. What then was he to think of seven hundred and thirty dollars per annum being given to the door-keeper? What would the public think? Or will they be unable to draw an inference? If into a profusion of expense beyond their expectathey are not, they will conceive we are running tion, and such as they are unable to bear. For these reasons he wished the House would consent to recommit the bill. He did not insist upon going over the provision respecting the compensation to the members, but he wanted to correct the bill in some other respects. Mr. LIVERMORE seconded the motion, and assigned, as an additional reason, that a Constitutional question arose out of its present form. The officers of the House would be established by law, if their compensation was affixed in that way; now, how far the President would be entitled to appoint such officers, was not a point which Ordered, That the said message, with the was clear. He thought there was some ambistatement and papers accompanying the same, beguity in the case, and wished to avoid it by stricommitted to the consideration of a Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union. A petition of David Greenleaf was presented to the House and read, praying that an exclusive privilege may be granted him, to construct and build mills within the United States, upon the principles of an invention which he has discovered for turning them by the help of a weight that is appended. Ordered, That the said petition do lie on the table. COMPENSATION OF MEMBERS. The engrossed bill for allowing a compensation to the members of both Houses and their officers, was read a third time; when Mr. SEDGWICK begged permission to trouble the House once more on the subject. He entertained a real apprehension, that if the bill became a law in its present form, it would have an inauspicious influence on the reputation of Government, and therefore he was desirous of bringing it to a greater degree of conformity with the opinion of the people of the United States; and gentlemen, in order to remove every ground of jealousy, would, no doubt, admit that opinion ought to be respected, when it was properly declared. In order to ascertain the opinion of the people of America as to what will be a proper compensation to their servants employed in administering the Constitution they had adopted, he was led to inquire what were the wages they gave to their officers in their respective States, and he found that they bore no proportion to what are contemplated in this bill. The Governor of New Hampshire served for two hundred or three hundred pounds per annum; the Governor of Massachusetts, eight hundred pounds; the Chief Justice of the same State, but three hundred and seventy king out that part of the bill; indeed, he had thought it wrong to authorize this, as the House had done some time ago by their vote of instructions to the committee. He had never seen an instance where the pay of a door-keeper or messenger was provided for by law; they originally brought in their accounts, and were paid as a part of the contingent charges. He submitted if it would not be better to establish the inferior officers upon this footing. Mr. PAGE said, the bill had gone through the usual forms; that more discussion had already taken place than was consistent with order. If gentlemen were to treat every subject in this circumlocutory manner, it would be true that five dollars a day would give more than six, for the session would be considerably drawn out. He was no enemy to debate, but it ought to take place at a proper time. The bill was now engrossed, and gentlemen ought to have come forward with their objections yesterday, if they had designed so strenuous an opposition, and not sacrifice any more of the time of the House, especially as the bill had been sanctioned by a numerous and respectable majority. Mr. AMES understood the motion to go no further than to alter some parts of the bill which had not been before canvassed. He always submitted to a fair majority, and though he wished the pay of the members less, and was sure it would be a happy circumstance to the administration of the Government, yet he did not desire to reiterate the question on that point. He wished to tell his constituents that the House acted upon principle in making their allowances; but while the bill stood as it did, it would contradict every one which gentlemen had advocated. He would join in the recommitment, in order to make every part of the bill consistent. Mr. BOUDINOT joined in the recommitment, |