found the completion of the business impossible to be effected in their hands; it terminated, as is well known, in calling the convention who framed the present Constitution, which has perfected a happy revolution in politics and commerce. The general expectation of the country is, that there shall be a discrimination; that those nations who have not yet explained the terms on which an intercourse shall be carried on, or who have by establishing regulations bearing hard upon such intercourse, may know our ability and disposition to withhold, or bestow advantages, according as we find a principle of reciprocity prevail. Thinking a discrimination necessary, and knowing that the voice of the people calls for it, we shall not answer the end for which we came here, by neglecting or refusing to make it. [H. of R. elsewhere; so that it may be fairly inferred the admission of them is not intended as a favor to America. in France are entitled to all the privileges of French built ships, in her colonial trade as well as any other. Our ships may be sold in England also, but they cannot be employed in her colonial trade, consequently the price must be lessened by the restriction of their use. In the West India islands the American vessels are not permitted to enter, but ships belonging to the subjects of Great Britain may carry any of our produce to those places; there is no prohibition in this respect. In the French West India islands American shipping is admitted indiscriminately with their own, but then the articles which are allowed to be carried there are few and of little value; they are lumber, live stock, and fish; the latter subject to a heavy duty. To some States it is highly beneficial that their productions should be carried off Mr. FITZSIMONS was well aware from the be- to the West Indies, although in British bottoms; ginning that the debate would turn in the manner but then it ought to be remembered that the artiit had done. The question which was now brought cles calculated for the consumption of the islands forward was well worthy of consideration and dis-are of such a nature that they cannot be obtained cussion, but he would add no more to the latter than barely to state to the committee such facts as would tend to point out the difference of the policy of the two principal nations in their regu- The gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. SHERlations as they affected the commerce of Ameri- MAN) apprehended, if we laid restrictions on the ca, leaving it to the judgment of the committee foreign trade, we might be met with equal reto draw such conclusions from them as are pro- strictions on the part of foreigners; but there is per. He believed it true, as stated by the gentle- no danger of that. Every thing which Great man from Virginia, that of all the foreign ship-Britain takes from us, is taken because she cannot ping employed in our trade, three-fourths at least belong to the British; nor did he think it difficult to account for this being the case. The citizens of America, previous to the Revolution, were possessed of shipping nearly enough to carry on their whole commerce; but during the war they were not only deprived of the shipping they before possessed, but the means of acquiring others also. When the era of peace commenced, they availed themselves of the opportunity of establishing among us merchants, agents, and factors of that nation. It is by means of these men, and the capitals of Britain, that we are furnished with vessels for the transportation of our productions; it is by this means that almost the whole of our trade is carried on in some States. These observations, added to what had been offered before, would show clearly the circumstances by which that nation had got such a large proportion of our trade. get it any where else; or if it is to be had at any other market, it is not at a price so cheap as ours. Rice for that market cannot be got in sufficient quantities, tobacco the same. Lumber for her islands she has attempted unsuccessfully to procure from another quarter. Being thus circumstanced, we do not run any risk of losing that commerce by any regulation we may enter into. But, for our own sake, we ought not to carry them so far as to deprive ourselves of the convenience they afford, whilst we are unsupplied with shipping of our own. But certainly we can draw a revenue from their consumption by a tonnage duty, as it must unavoidably be paid by the consumer and not the planter. The question of policy has been well explained, and therefore nothing more need be added; but submitting the decision to the sense of the committee, he would rest the facts and conclusions here. Mr. GOODHUE withdrew his motion for sixty cents. The next question, "on all vessels belonging wholly or in part to the subjects of other Powers, at the rate of - cents per ton." Mr. LAWRENCE moved to fill up the blank with the same sum as they had just agreed to. Let us proceed now to ascertain what is the difference between the regulations of France and England relative to the commerce of this country. Mr. HARTLEY's motion for thirty-three and oneInto the ports of Great Britain an American ves-third cents was put and lost, but the question on sel can bring the produce of the United States, thirty cents was put and carried. but nothing else. He believed our ships paid no more duties on such articles than if imported in British bottoms, except what was for the support of lights; but this in some cases falls pretty heavy, but it is no more than all other nations have to pay. In the ports of France, an American vessel is admitted nearly on an equal footing with the vessels of their own subjects. There was a distinction made by the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. MADISON,) which he conceived had not been fully attended to. The ships of this country sold Mr. MADISON Supposed the gentleman, by this motion, intended to equalize the restrictions about to be laid on foreign nations, as he was opposed to a discrimination; if so, he acted consistently with his principles. But, said he, I am actuated by a different sense of interest; and therefore shall be in favor of a larger sum than that proposed. The more the subject has been examined, the greater necessity there appears for discrimination. If it is expedient for America to have vessels employed in commerce at all, it will be proper that she have enough to answer all the purposes intended; to form a school for seamen, to lay the foundation of a navy, and to be able to support itself against the interference of foreigners. I do not think there is much weight in what has been observed relative to the duty we are about to lay in favor of American vessels, being a burden on the community, and particularly oppressive to some parts; but if there were, it may be a burden of that kind which will ultimately save us from one that is greater. I consider that an acquisition of maritime strength is essential to this country; if ever we are so unfortunate as to be engaged in war, what but this can defend our towns and cities upon the sea-coast? Or what but this can enable us to repel an invading enemy? Those parts which are said to bear an undue proportion of the burden of the additional duty on foreign shipping, are those which will be the most exposed to the operations of a depredatory war, and require the greatest exertions of the Union in their defence; if, therefore, some little sacrifice is made by them to obtain this important object, they will be peculiarly rewarded for it in the hour of danger. Granting a preference to our own navigation will insensibly bring it forward to that perfection so essential to American safety; and though it may produce some little inequality at first, it will soon ascertain its level, and become uniform throughout the Union, a higher duty will become necessary on these principles, as well as on those of discrimination. The preference we give to foreign nations in alliance over those not in treaty will tend to increase the trade of our allies; but it will also enable our own shipping to carry on lower terms than that nation who is in possession of such an unnatural proportion of commerce. Mr. FITZSIMONS moved to fill the blank with sixty cents, and was seconded by Mr. GOODHUE. Mr. TUCKER expressed himself in favor of some discrimination; he thought it ought to be made on the principles mentioned by the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. MADISON;) but he feared he should not be able to vote with gentlemen on the present question, because he conceived the rate proposed was too high. If the committee would agree to fix the duty on this article at thirty cents, and reconsider their last vote, and reduce that to twenty, he should concur with them; but, as he thought thirty cents enough for the highest, he was inclined to vote for that sum, only he feared it would seem to infer that he was not in favor of discrimination if he did so; but to avoid if possible the difficulty to which he was exposed, he would move thirty-five cents, with an intention hereafter to reduce the first article to twenty. Mr. MADISON begged leave to express an idea which he thought would reconcile gentlemen to a more considerable duty than seemed to be con [APRIL, 1789. templated. It was admitted on all hands that America did not furnish shipping sufficient for the transportation of her own produce, and the apparent quantity would decrease from what it was now represented to be, if gentlemen considered that the American vessels, mentioned in the custom-house reports, may clear three, four, five, or six times a year, and consequently multiply the gross amount without its being substantially true. Another circumstance that decreases this apparent quantity is that foreigners have, in some instances, in order to obtain the privileges of our ships, masked their property under the American name. This reduction of our shipping serves only to show the indispensable necessity of applying means to raise it up to what it ought to be. But in doing this we ought to be careful in avoiding any sudden or violent effect upon our commerce by the rise of freight. Let, then, the operation of the present discrimination continue for such a length of time as it is likely will procure us a sufficient quantity of tonnage of our own, and then let the duty be increased to a greater degree. This may be done by a small addition to the clause, saying that the duty shall be a certain sum, but that, after another day, it shall be increased to a larger sum. Thus will both the objects of gentlemen be effected. Ship-building will be encouraged, and the freight will not be raised. He made a motion similar to what he had expressed. Mr. TUCKER felt himself sorry to be obliged to make local observations on the question before the committee, but the duty he owed his constituents, as well as his duty to the whole community, called upon him to repeat what he had said on former occasions respecting the burden which a heavy tonnage duty would be upon the State of South Carolina. He hoped gentlemen would forbear adding to their oppression; if a high duty must be laid, let it be determinate, that the people may know what they are to bear; do not introduce an idea that their burdens are in future to be increased. He hoped gentlemen who wished for national encouragement to their shipbuilding would be moderate, as they plainly saw that it must be done at the expense of their neighbors. Mr. FITZSIMONS remarked, that the sum now proposed was not so high as to prevent foreigners from continuing our trade. As a proof of this he instanced Virginia. The tonnage duty was one dollar in that State, and yet he believed they found no difficulty in getting British ships to carry their produce; besides, he did not think sixty cents exceeded much, if any thing, the average of the tonnage duties laid by the State Government. Even in the State which the gentleman complains is so likely to suffer, they have a tonnage duty, perhaps not quite so high as the one proposed. If a high tonnage duty will raise the freight, even then the conclusion which that gentleman drew does not follow; for the price of freight will equalize itself. A vessel will readily remove to where the best freight is to be got, and by their numbers soon reduce the price, or raise it elsewhere to an equality. They would readily go from Massachusetts to Carolina, and all the expense would be the sending of a vessel from one port to another: besides, foreign tonnage is more or less employed by every part of the Union. The question on the motion proposed by Mr. MADISON, respecting the increase of the duty at a certain time, was put, and the House divided equally; it lying with the CHAIRMAN to decide, he did it in the negative, remarking that he did not see any necessity for using the words, because the subject was always in the power of the Legislature. Mr. BOUDINOT moved fifty cents; which motion, after sixty cents had been negatived, was adopted by the committee. On motion of Mr. FITZSIMONS, seconded by Mr. GOODHUE, it was provided that no vessel built within the United States, and belonging to a citizen or citizens thereof, whilst employed in the coasting trade, or in the fisheries, shall pay tonnage more than once in any one year. Nor shall any ship or vessel built within the United States, pay tonnage on her first voyage. The committee rose, and reported the foregoing resolutions as agreed to. The report was ordered to lie on the table, and the House adjourned. JOHN HATHORN, from New York, appeared and took his seat. [H. OF R. Senate, to receive the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, at the place of his embarkation from New Jersey, that the committee did, according to order, together with a committee from the Senate, attend at Elizabethtown, in New Jersey, on the 23d instant, at which place the two committees met the PRESIDENT, and thence embarked for this city, where they arrived about three o'clock in the afternoon of the same day, and conducted him to the house appointed for his residence. The House proceeded to consider the report from the committee appointed to confer with a committee of the Senate in reporting a proper mode of communicating papers, bills, and messages between the two Houses, which lay on the table, and the said report being twice read, was, on a motion made, ordered to be recommitted to the same committee. On motion, Resolved, That so much of the standing rules and orders of this House as prescribes the enacted style of bills, be rescinded. The SPEAKER laid before the House a letter from the VICE PRESIDENT of the United States, enclosing a resolution of the Senate, appointing a committee to consider and report what style or titles it will be proper to annex to the office of President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the Constitution; also to consider of the time, place, and manner in which, and the person by whom, the oath preto the PRESIDENT, and to confer thereon with scribed by the Constitution, shall be administered such committee as this House should appoint for that purpose; whereupon, members, be appointed for the purpose expressed Ordered, That a committee, to consist of five in the resolution of the Senate. The members elected were Messrs. BENSON, AMES, MADISON, CARROLL, and SHERMAN. DUTIES ON IMPORTS. The House then proceeded to consider the resolutions reported by the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. Mr. BOUDINOT complained that the articles Mr. RICHARD BLAND LEE reported, from the the article to bear, but too high for the due colwere generally taxed too high, not too high for committee appointed to confer with a committee lection of the revenue. Every thing we tax should of the Senate, in reporting a proper mode of com- be considered as it relates to the interest of the municating papers, bills, and messages, between the two Houses, that the committee had, accord-it is discovered that the duties are so great as to importer, as well as other circumstances; now, if ing to order, met and conferred with a committee make it a beneficial trade to the merchant to run of the Senate thereupon, and had agreed to a his goods, he will do so, and injure the revenue. report; which he delivered in at the Clerk's table, where the same was read, and ordered to lie on the table. Ordered, That the report from the Committee of the Whole House on the bill to regulate the taking the oath or affirmation prescribed by the sixth article of the Constitution, be put off until to-morrow. FRIDAY, April 24. Mr. BOUDINOT reported, from the committee appointed to attend with a committee from the of the Whole, he expressed a desire for gentlemen When this subject was before the Committee to get information from such sources as were likely to be the purest; in conformity with this desire, he had endeavored to avail himself of the him, in order to ascertain what would be the few leisure moments which his avocations allowed amount of the duties, the risk of smuggling, and what degree of temptation merchants will be under to engage in this practice. The duty on spirits is so high as to afford a very strong temptation; and when we consider the extensiveness of our seacoasts, we shall find it impossible to place our guards so thick as to prevent the importer from falling into the practice. We ought not, therefore, to make the inducement so strong as to endanger the loss of the revenue. But suppose, on experience, we discover the fatal tendeney of the measure, can we lower it with convenience? Certainly we cannot as it regards the fair trader. [APRIL, 1789. the sum proposed on spirits was not so high as to produce those effects to any considerable degree. If any article is capable of paying a heavy duty, it is this; if the duty on any article is capable of being collected with certainty, it is this; if a duty on any article is consonant with the sentiment of the people of America, it is this; why then should not the article be made as tributary as possible to the wants of Government? But, besides these The article of Madeira wine will bear a heavy favorable circumstances, I think the combination duty, as well as spirits; but, in laying a duty on of the merchants will come in aid of the law; the it, we ought to consider its situation. That we pay people will also lend their aid. These circum for it in the produce of our country, is one consi-stances would do much toward insuring the due deration; but when it arrives, it is not immedi- collection of the revenue. ately productive; it is necessary to keep it some years before it is fit for sale. Now, on a cargo of two hundred pipes of Madeira, the duties will amount to three thousand or two thousand six hundred pounds; this is a very large sum for a merchant to pay from his capital; no doubt the Government will give some credit, but we cannot give a credit equal to the merchant's necessity. The temptation will be increased from the want of means to discharge the duty; and the advantage of clearing three thousand pounds on a cargo There is another consideration which particuwill make it the most advantageous trade a per-larly regarded the Georgia trade. That country, son can engage in. Will not so large a reward as this awaken all his powers to defraud you, and to evade the checks which you are obliged to establish? But if many officers are necessary to watch the faithful collection of the impost, they will defeat the object of revenue as much as a loss by smuggling; they will consume the whole in compensating their services; besides, such establishments are odious to the people, and will render the Government itself unpopular. The duty on 2,500,000 gallons of West India rum, which is less than the quantity actually consumed in America, calculated at one shilling only, will amount to 125,000 pounds; the duty on 5,000 pipes of Madeira wine will be at least £67,500, besides the twelve cents on all other wines. What an extravagant sum-above half a million of dollars for these two articles alone! Can this be in proportion to our wants? Surely it exceeds them. But it is to be feared, after all, that these high duties will diminish the revenue rather than increase it. Such is the natural consequence resulting from an extension of the subject beyond what it is capable of bearing. He knew a fact in point: when molasses was subjected to a duy of six-pence a gallon in this State, a person who was considerably in the trade, did not pay at the rate of a farthing per gallon for seven or eight years; but when the duty was reduced to a penny, he paid £1,200 annually. This anecdote will serve to show the committee the propriety of not exceeding the bound of moderation, if revenue is their object. In order to begin to make the reduction, he moved to lower distilled spirits of Jamaica proof from fifteen to twelve cents per gallon. Mr. MADISON was sensible that high duties had a tendency to promote smuggling, and in case those kinds of fraud were successfully practised, the revenue must be diminished; yet he believed Mr. JACKSON Seconded Mr. BOUDINOT's motion for reducing the duties, because he was well convinced they were too high even to be well collected, unless we establish custom-houses every ten or twelve miles, like watch-towers, along the sea-coasts. When trade is so unproductive, the Legislature ought to be careful how they make it more worth a man's while to live by committing frauds upon the revenue than by practising honest commerce. abounding with lumber of the most luxurious growth, could only exchange it for rum; and a very considerable commerce grew out of this intercourse favorable to Georgia. This would be affected by the imposition of heavy duties; but commercial considerations, we shall be told, form only a secondary object in this business. There is another proposition in which he acquiesced; it would be more convenient, and more to the honor of the House, to make their first essay with low duties; because, if they persisted in laying them high, they would be compelled to an inglorious retreat, and the Government would be insulted. In the State he represented, it was next to impossible to collect the revenue, the country was so intersected with navigable creeks and rivers, if the people were disposed to evade the payment of it; and there was no more certain way to produce this disposition than by making it their interest to defraud you. Mr. WADSWORTH conceived the duty much too high, and joined the gentlemen of the opposition in believing it never could be collected; the quantity of rum imported was full 4,000,000 gallons annually; can it be thought that the whole of this duty will be paid, or even a considerable part of it? He thought it would not. The British, when in possession of this country, only imposed a duty of three pence sterling on molasses; but, with all their custom-house officers, their navy, their cutters, and energetic Executive, they were unable to obtain it. When it was reduced to one penny, they got something. How, then, can the Federal Government expect, without these aids, to collect a higher duty, when even the specie in the country is insufficient to pay the whole amount of it? If we attempt a thing that is impracticable, we shall expose our weakness, without effecting any one good purpose whatsoever; by moderating the duties we shall obtain revenue, and give that encouragement to manufactures which is intended; but by persisting in keepiag them so high, we shall obtain nothing, and the law will be destructive of itself. [H. OF R consumption; it will, therefore, be necessary to remove them to others, and I trust this removal can be so guarded against as to frustrate the attempt. To defraud the revenue in this view, a person who has got his goods on shore in Georgia will be little nigher his object than if they were in the West Indies. The duty on a hogshead of rum will be about sixteen or eighteen dollars; the fraudulent trader will calculate the cost to remove a hogshead landed at these unfrequented places to the place of consumption, with the common charge for risk, and extra one for illicit trade, and will find perhaps that the profit to himself is small and precarious. Now, whether we fix the duty at twelve or fifteen cents, it will be equally easy, or nearly so, to secure our object-revenue. The gentleman from Jersey has recommended to the committee to gain information. I have endeavored to inform myself of the public opinion, and of the opinion of merchants, and can say, as the result of my inquiries, that if it was possible to obtain a revenue of double the amount from ardent spirits, it would give general satisfaction in Pennsylvania. I believe in some States the proposed duties would be paid under almost any system of collection with great certainty; where it cannot be so obtained, the law must aid the officer sufficiently to attain the object. The gentleman from Georgia says it will in Mr. FITZSIMONS.-If it is the opinion of the House that the duties agreed to in the committee cannot be collected with any tolerable certainty, they will agree to a reduction. One gentleman tells you it is impossible to prevent smuggling, another that there is not money enough in the country to pay the duties, and another that their amount exceeds the wants of the United States. Have gentlemen made a calculation of the amount of those duties? If they have, do they find it exceeds even the probable wants of the United States? If it does this, it will be improper to make a demand of so much; but I believe, if the calculation was made, and the whole of the duties carried into the total, we shall still fall something short of what is absolutely necessary to discharge our national obligations and support the Government; but if there is not money enough in the Union to pay these things, the Government must go without it; we can have no alternative. But whether any or all of those observations are true, is but matter of opinion; we have not the means of ascertaining them with precision; for my own part, I entertain sentiments very different from those delivered by the gentlemen in opposition. One of them stated a fact rela-jure the trade of his State, because they export tive to the collection of the duty on molasses their lumber and take rum in payment; I think when at six pence and one penny per gallon; they have very little advantage by such an exno doubt it is true, but the inference does not change. It is said, that we shall, on experience of hold good in the case before us; the gentleman the predicted disadvantages, be compelled to only proposes a reduction from fifteen to twelve lower the duties. I believe it would be injurious cents. Whether we can prevent smuggling or to the Government to have revenue laws that not, it will be best ascertained when the bill for could not be executed; but that, I trust, is not collecting the duties shall be brought forward. likely to be the case with the present; because Such a bill is now in the hands of the commit- the mode of collection can, I think, without great tee, and I trust that it will be adequate to the expense, be so regulated as to secure a faithful object; if it guards sufficiently against smug-performance of what it directs. If the duties gling, or defrauding the revenue of twelve cents, it will require but very little more circumspection to secure fifteen. The gentleman from New Jersey states the embarrassments to which the importer will be subjected by having to make such large payments for duties out of his capital; he supports this by supposing a merchant obliged to pay three thousand pounds on two hundred pipes of Madeira; but there are very few such cargoes imported into the United States. But suppose there were, cannot the bill I alluded to before regulate the time and manner of payments, so as to give an opportunity to the owner to sell enough of the article to discharge the duty before it is demanded? This is the practice in England, where the duties frequently exceed double the value of the article, and by a mean of this kind he can avoid employing his capital in the payment of the duty. Gentlemen have remarked on the impossibility there is of preventing an illicit trade being carried on. I know it will be more difficult to provide against this in some States than in others; but gentlemen will recollect, that generally those places where goods can be landed with privacy are places of but little should lessen the consumption and importation of distilled spirit, a great good is effected; it will tend to improve the morals of the people; if it does not produce that consequence it will afford the more revenue. It is a proper object of a sumptuary regulation, not only as it is a luxury, but inasmuch as it is a luxury of the most mischievous kind. As I think the collection of twelve or fifteen cents equally secure, and as the best source of obtaining revenue is by impost, I shall be for the highest sum; knowing that, if there is not money enough in the country to pay the necessary sum for the support of Government, a recourse to excise or direct taxes cannot produce more. Mr. BOUDINOT was not ashamed to confess that he wanted the advantages of commercial knowledge on a question where the principles of trade were interwoven; but he opposed high duties on a conviction in his own mind that they could not be collected. He repeated some few of his former arguments to show why he held this opinion; but it was not the particular article of rum that he was opposed to, it was the high scale on which the duties were laid generally, and that only from |