H. OF R.]

Foreign Intercourse.

[JANUARY, 1790.

as well as Mr. Lloyd, instead of being in the gal-lutions of the Senate and Assembly thereof, for lery. He had no objection to admitting any num- the use of the House. ber of short-hand writers, provided they did not incommode the members.

Mr. FOSTER, from the committee appointed, presented, according to order, a bill providing for the actual enumeration of the inhabitants of the United States, which was read the first time.

TUESDAY, January 19.

The bill for enumerating the inhabitants of the United States was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to a Committee of the Whole.

Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina.)-I do not wish, Mr. Speaker, to exclude others from a convenient seat; but at the same time, I think those who were here before have a pre-emption right to the best. I assure you, sir, I am sorry for the loss of them off the floor, because I think their publications had a salutary tendency. It has been said, that it was the design of the short-hand writers ON FOREIGN INTERCOURSE. to give a partial representation of our proceedings. I believe, if they are not correctly given, Mr. SEDGWICK, from the committee to whom it is owing to the hurry in which business of this was referred that part of the President's Speech kind is conducted, and I am confirmed in this opin-relative to making provision for persons employed ion, by some errors which I have discovered in in the intercourse between the United States and the publication of our proceedings. It was said foreign nations, stated that the committee had some that a committee was appointed to bring in a bill doubts on their mind respecting the extent of such for the preservation and safe-keeping of the ac- provision, or rather the construction of the words counts of the United States. I thought within of the resolution under which they were appointed; myself that we were not so tenacious on this they doubt if a strict construction would autho head, therefore suspected some mistake, and on rize them to report a bill making a general provi consulting the journals I found that a committee sion for every grade of foreign ministers, or whe had been appointed to bring in a bill for the safe-ther, on the contrary, they are not tied down to keeping and preservation of the acts of the United States: The similarity of the letters in these two words, and the great abridgment short-hand writers are obliged to make for the sake of expedition, may have caused him to substitute the one for the other; in another place, I found a greater blunder still: it was said, that the House had appointed a committee for the regulation of the barbers of the United States; this struck me as a very gross misrepresentation, for I could hardly believe that the Legislature of the Union would, at so early a day, attempt to usurp an authority not vested in them by the Constitution, and that, too, over a body of men, who could at at any time put an end to the tyranny with the edge of the razor; but, on searching the minutes in this case, I found that a bill was brought in for the regulation of the harbors of the United States. Upon the whole, I believe, inaccurate as this work is, it has given to our constituents great satisfaction, and I should be glad to see our Argus restored to his former situation behind the Speaker's Chair, from whence he could both see and hear distinctly every thing that passed in the House.

MONDAY, January 18.

THOMAS SINNICKSON, from New Jersey, and MICHAEL JENIFER STONE, from Maryland, appeared and took their seats.

A petition of Hannibal W. Dobbyns, of the kingdom of Ireland, praying that Congress may grant him a tract of land upon such reasonable terms as may encourage him to bring settlers to the country, was read and referred to Messrs. PAGE, SCOTT, and PARTRIDGE.

The SPEAKER laid before the House a letter from the Treasurer of the State of New York, together with a copy of the revised laws of the said State, sent in pursuance of concurrent reso

provide for those only who are now in existence. He had been desired by the committee to suggest this doubt, and request the instruction of the House.

Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina,) said he wished to refer to the President's Speech in order to as certain what was the intention of the House in appointing this committee; because the Presi dent's Speech was the ground on which they proceeded to act.

The President's Speech being read, together with the resolutions of the House founded thereon,

Mr. SEDGWICK said it was clear, from the President's Message, what were his intentions; but the words of the resolution appointing a committee, obscured, in some degree, the intentions of the House; it is there said that the committee should bring in a bill for making compensation to persons employed, which seemed to confine the deliberations of the committee to that particular object.

He did not know but this provision was intended immediately to be made by the House and the other part, which related to those here after to be employed in the intercourse between the United States and foreign nations, left until information could be obtained from the Secretary of State; he did not see any inconvenience that would attend leaving the business altogether un decided until his arrival, which he expected might be soon, provided the gentleman accepted his appointment. He supposed the Secretary of State had paid more attention, and possessed more information on this subject, than the committe had it in their power to do, or obtain. He wished it therefore left unacted upon until the Secretary should be ready to report to the House, provided the business of the nation did not suffer by the delay, but this was a point he would not pretend to determine; it might be necessary, for all he

knew, that the United States should be represented in some of the Courts of Europe, where they are not at present represented.

Mr. PAGE moved that the committee be discharged from the further consideration of the subject, in order that it might be brought forward and determined upon in a Committee of the Whole. He thought this the most likely way to obtain the sense of the House on the plan which should be pursued, and whether it was proper to make a general regulation providing for the several grades in the diplomatic corps that may hereafter be employed, as well as those already in the service of the Union.

Mr. LEE was sensible that the resolution of the House appointing a committee, was intended to be founded on the President's Speech, and he supposed that the President had selected this object for the consideration of the House; because he had not the means of sending persons to foreign Courts, which the interests of the United States may require. It seemed, therefore, to look as a general regulation of the different grades of officers which are employed in the business of embassy; but this latitude was curtailed by the expressions of the House. He hoped, therefore, that the House would instruct the committee whether they should make such general regulations as they deemed necessary, or be confined to making provision for persons already appointed. Mr. WHITE was in favor of a general provision; because it might be found necessary to send ambassadors extraordinary to foreign nations, and an adequate provision for their support ought to be made, and known by such officers at the time they accepted their appointment, otherwise the President might be considerably embarrassed, whenever he intended to employ them.

Mr. JACKSON remarked, that there was no compensation for the foreign ministers provided by the laws in the last session; yet it was as necessary that their salaries should be known, as that of any other officer in the Government; but he thought, before the committee proceeded in the business, that an arrangement should be made of the officers necessary to be employed at foreign Courts: after it was ascertained what grade of officers should be employed at the Court of Britain, the Court of France, and so on, the committee might report a provision conformable to such an arrangement; he would not say, however, that it might not be proper to refer the subject to the Secretary of State, so far as to learn what places it would be proper to send Ministers

to.

He confessed that it was his opinion the committee was in the dark on this point.

[H. OF R.

they were competent to bring in a bill, and this he supposed they were without waiting the arrival of the Secretary of State. The arrangement which some gentlemen talked of, lay with the President and Senate. It is they who are to determine when and where to send ambassadors and other public ministers; all that the House has to do is to make provision for their support. The question then is, not whether any should be appointed, because it does not lie with the House to determine. To be sure, if they were of opinion that all intercourse with foreign nations should be cut off, they might decline to make provision for them; but he did not believe this was the intention of any gentleman. Perhaps gentlemen may think it questionable whether the President can send them, unless they are previously established by law; but for his part he thought it was a business clearly within the Executive branch, and with which the Legislature had nothing to do, but to provide for the payment of their salaries and expenses; and this, if it was properly considered, was a competent check. If the House at any time neglected to provide for such officers, the President must either recall them or pay them out of his private purse. From this view of the subject, he could not see any good reason why the committee should not pursue the business; they could make a general regulation, containing a provision for ambassadors, ministers, residents, and chargé des affaires, leaving to the President and Senate to judge which of those they would employ on any occasion where they thought them necessary. He conceived it improper to refer this part of the business to the Secretary of State, when the Constitution placed it expressly in other hands.

Mr. SHERMAN was inclined to think that the Legislature ought to determine how many ministers should be employed abroad; nor did he think it would be any abridgment of the Executive power so to do.

Mr. PAGE wished the committee might be discharged, in order to settle the principles on which the House was to act. He conceived it to be the most expeditious way of doing business, to settle the principles first, and then put it into the hands of a select committee, to draught a bill conformably thereto. He thought if they proceeded in this manner, that the Secretary of State might be here in time to give them what information gentlemen seemed to want.

Mr. WHITE said, it had never been a question in his mind whether the President and Secretary had a right to appoint such foreign ministers as they thought proper; the power was expressly Mr. SEDGWICK said, that the honorable gentle-given to them by the Constitution, and was conman from Virginia, (Mr. PAGE,) had made a motion, if he understood him right, which met his ideas, and he would second it; for he verily believed that, under the present circumstances, it would be the most eligible course to discharge the committee, and wait the arrival of the Secretary of State, to get fuller information.

sequently placed without the jurisdiction of this House. If the contrary doctrine was established, that the President could send no foreign minister but what he was authorized by law to send, the most inconvenient consequences might result. The exigencies that required such an appointment might be over before the Legislature convened for the purpose of authorizing him to

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina) could not see why the committee ought to be discharged, if] make it.

H. OF R.]

Report of the Secretary of the Treasury.

[January, 1790.

Mr. PAGE wished to take the sense of the House first on discharging the committee. Whereupon, the question for discharging the committee was put and lost.

Mr. JACKSON granted that exigencies might arise, where it would be necessary for the preservation of the public tranquillity, that the President should enter into a negotiation with a foreign State; but he would ask the gentleman how it Mr. PARTRIDGE asked whether it was in conwas possible for the President to establish the sala- templation to report, under the instruction moved ries of such negotiators as he thought it expedi- for, a bill for compensating all the grades of the ent to employ, without the consent of Congress? | diplomatic corps? If it was, he would suggest a Or do gentlemen mean to give the same sum to circumstance that had taken place under the late the ministers who may be employed at the petty Congress, which was, that no person above the Courts up the Mediterranean, as to those sent to grade of a Minister Plenipotentiary should be the principal and most important nations of Eu-employed in negotiating with foreign nations. rope? Would they give a resident at Genoa as Whether this resolution was now in force or not. much as a Minister at Paris or Madrid? This he would not pretend to determine; but he precan neither be the meaning nor intention of gen- sumed the House were now prepared to enter on tlemen. Then I appeal to them, whether it is not the establishment of a corps of ambassadors, minabsolutely necessary for a proper arrangement to isters, envoys, and chargés des affaires. be made before we proceed in the business? After the arrangement is made, the committee will find every thing clear and easy to determine.

The President would find it a tender point to establish the salary of a foreign minister, if any thing discretionary is left in his power on this head. I therefore think, in order to avoid embarrassments, both with respect to him and the gentlemen who shall be employed to go abroad, that the Legislature should make some express provision for every circumstance that may arise, at least as far as we can decide upon the best attainable information. Perhaps it would be proper to wait the arrival of the Secretary of State, in order to get that light thrown on the subject which it requires. For these reasons, I should favor the motion made by the honorable gentleman from Virginia, for discharging the committee.

Mr. BOUDINOT thought it would be best to make the report full and complete; and, as the House were not bound by the opinion of the committee. they might then make such alterations as they thought proper.

On the question, the motion made by Mr. LEE for instructing the committee was carried in the affirmative.

Mr. PAGE, from the committee to whom was referred the petition from Hannibal William Dobbyn, made a report.

REPORT FROM THE SECRETARY OF THE

TREASURY.

The Secretary of the Treasury reported on the petition of Christopher Saddler, as follows:

TREASURY DEPARTMENT, January 19, 1790. In obedience to the order of the House of Repre sentatives of the 11th instant, referring to the Secretary the said Secretary most respectfully reports: of the Treasury the petition of Christopher Saddler,

To this there is the further in

Mr. LEE did not conceive it necessary to contemplate the question which had now been drawn into view. He believed all that was before the House was suggested by the gentleman from MasThat, except the letter from the Collector of the dis sachusetts, which was, that the committee had trict of Boston and Charlestown, accompanying the doubts on their minds relative to the provision to petition, there is no evidence immediately within reach be made for existing officers, employed in the in- respecting the ground of the application for relief. tercourse between the United States and foreign That, though that letter is entirely satisfactory to the nations, and those that might hereafter be employ-mind of the Secretary, the affair is of a nature to entitle ed in such intercourse. He had the honor of be- the petitioner to relief; yet he does not consider it ing of the committee, but he confessed that he such a document, as, in point of precedent, would jus had not much hesitation in determining for him-tify the interposition of the Legislature to grant it. The self what was the proper duty of the committee. Secretary will therefore take measures for a more regu He thought that the President's Speech, upon lar authentication of the nature of the transaction, and which the whole business seemed to be grounded, will submit the result. authorized them to take up the subject generally. ducement of its being necessary to ascertain whether He conceived the proper question before the House the persons who may be interested in the forfeiture, are to be, whether they would give instructions to the disposed to relinquish their right. committee on this point; and in order that it might The Secretary, however, begs leave to avail himsel be decided with precision, he would move that it of the occasion, to represent to the House, that there be an instruction to that committee, to include in in which considerable forfeitures have been incurred. are other instances which have come under his notice such provision as they shall make for the persons manifestly through inadvertence and want of inform to be employed in the intercourse between the tion: circumstances which cannot fail to attend the re United States and foreign nations, a compensation cent promulgation of laws of such a nature, and sen to persons who may hereafter be employed in such to indicate the necessity, in conformity to the usual intercourse. When the committee had proceed-policy of commercial nations, of vesting somewhere a ed on that instruction, and brought in their pro-discretionary power of granting relief. vision accordingly, the whole subject would be before the House, and then might be the proper time to discuss the question brought forward by the gentleman from Georgia.

That necessity, though peculiarly great in the early stages of new regulations, does not cease to operat throughout the progress of them. There occasional occur accidents from which heavy and ruinous forfeit

ures ensue, that require the constant existence of some power capable of affording relief. The proper investment of such a power is a matter of too much delicacy and importance to be determined otherwise than upon mature deliberation. Yet the Secretary begs leave to submit to the consideration of the House, whether a

temporary arrangement might not be made with expedition and safety, which would avoid the inconvenience of a Legislative decision on particular applications. All which is humbly submitted.

ALEX. HAMILTON,

by instalments. Secretary of the Treasury.

Mr. SMITH thought it would be proper to refer this report to a select committee, as there appeared to be a pointed necessity for extending relief in this and similar cases.

Mr. BOUDINOT seconded the motion.

Mr. STONE wished the business could come before them in some other way; he thought it would be improper to take it up in its present form.

Mr. BOUDINOT Suspected, as the gentleman was not here when the petition of Christopher Saddler came first before the House, that he might not know what was the state of the business: he therefore related that the petition had been presented, read, and referred to the Secretary, who had now reported thereon.

Mr. STONE acknowledged he was not present when the petition was brought forward; but he knew that the business had been conducted in the manner stated by the gentleman from New Jersey, because the Secretary made mention of it in the report; but he thought it was not referred to him to report on the necessity of establishing a commission for the final determination on applications of this kind.

Mr. SMITH did not see any impropriety in conducting the business in this way; but if the gentleman would propose any other mode of proceeding in the business, he was ready to acquiesce.

On the question for referring the report to a select committee, it passed in the affirmative; and the following gentlemen were appointed a committee accordingly, viz: Messrs. AMES, STURGIS, STONE, GRIFFIN, and WYNKOOP.

Mr. WADSWORTH made the following motion: "That the Secretary of the Treasury be directed to lay before this House such information as he may have obtained respecting any difficulties which may have occurred in the execution of the several laws for the collecting duties on goods, wares, and merchandise, and on tonnage, and for regulating the coasting trade, and to report his opinion thereon."

WEDNESDAY, January 20.

[H. of R.

per acre, nor less than fifty thousand acres, the whole to be taken up in one tract. Mr. SCOTT was one of the committee to whom this petition had been referred, and he would inform the House that, on inquiring of the gentleman petitioning, he learned that the gentleman wished to purchase a larger quantity of land than would be convenient for him to pay for immediately; he is solicitous, therefore, of permission to purchase such a quantity, and to pay the price He is willing to pay one-third, down; one-third in seven years, and the remainder in twelve years; together with interest at six per cent. on the two-thirds unpaid, from the time of closing the contract. Now, in order to know if it is possible to let him contract upon these principles, he would move to amend the report to that effect. I will declare, said he, for my own part, that I am in favor of making as many of these contracts as possible; one-third of the purchase money paid down, and a settlement made on the spot, would be good security for the payment of the remainder; nor would this be all, for a contract made upon interest would amount to the extinguishment of so much of the public debt.

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina) thought it would be best to postpone the consideration of the subject for the present. There was a difficulty had struck his mind, and perhaps it might deserve some consideration. The applicant is avowedly an alien; now, by the laws of this country, it is generally understood that aliens cannot hold real estate; they may hold it as trustees, or contrive some means to evade the law; but I conceive it would be a solecism in Government to encourage or countenance the holding of land by such a tenure. It ought also to be considered, that a committee is appointed who will probably report in a short time the plan of uniform naturalization. Now it would be impossible for the House, at this time, to judge whether an alien, holding lands in America, would be able to conform in all respects to such a law.

Mr. SHERMAN said he should be glad to be informed whether the petitioner intended coming

here to settle.

Mr. SCOTT observed that the petitioner stated in his petition that he wished to become a citizen of the United States. With respect to the difficulty suggested by the gentleman from South Carolina, he apprehended it might be easily removed by inserting a clause in the bill requiring, as a condition, that the petitioner shall comply with the laws of the United States in that case; but there was urgent necessity of deciding speedily, inasmuch as the gentleman is waiting for an

JAMES MADISON and JOSIAH PARKER, from Vir- answer, and could not tarry long to receive it. ginia, appeared and took their seats.

SALE OF PUBLIC LANDS.

The report on the petition of Hannibal W. Dobbyn was called up for a second reading. It purported that the Secretary of the Treasury ought to be empowered to contract with the said H. W. Dobbyn, for the sale of a tract of land in the Western country, at a price not less than

Mr. STONE said that if our lands were now valuable to foreigners, they would be so a month hence, and, therefore, they ought not to hurry on a contract of this nature, nor was it proper, in his opinion, to make a naturalization act to apply to an individual; the law for disposing of the lands ought to be general, that those who comply with the terms might he equally accommodated.

Mr. WHITE thought it of importance that the

proposals of foreigners for the purchase of unappropriated lands ought to be attended to, especially of those who intend to become citizens. He looked upon it to be the policy of this country to encourage useful settlers amongst us. If the first applicants are successful, and met with no obstacles, it might induce others to come.

[JANUARY, 1790.

Mr. PAGE owned that he had his doubts respect ing the propriety of entering into a partial sale of the Western Territory; but when he considered the peculiar circumstances of the petitioner, he was induced to believe it proper to make some special provision; if it could be proper on any occasion whatsoever, it was certainly so on this. He had also some doubts with respect to the propriety of giving credit; but he thought they might be obviated by filling up the blank in the report with a large sum. He wished a contract could be entered into with the petitioner, because he feared if the present time was suffered to escape they would never have another opportunity. He could press this observation further on the House. but the delicacy of the petitioner's situation for bade him; he hoped, therefore, they would agree to the report.

Mr. STONE thought that a land office ought to be opened where every one could be accommodated. He had no idea of giving preferences or enabling one man to make a better bargain than another. He had no doubt but the lands in the Western Territory would meet a ready sale upor his principles, and he believed there was reasur to wish that Congress had never adopted any other; for it was thought there was little or nothing got by the contracts they had already made.

Mr. BOUDINOT observed that the business of selling lands was of considerable consequence; if it was properly managed, it might be a productive source for the extinguishment of the national debt; but much depended on the manner of setting out. If they went into a desultory mode of selling lands, they might do material injury. He wished a general and systematic plan might be adopted, which should not be receded from. He was, therefore, against the report, as he would be against any partial sale; but as for the amendment, he was pointedly against it. He observed, that there had been large sales already made, on terms known to a great part of the House; the payments for them were not yet made, but he believed they became due upon a contingent operation of Congress. He presumed that the House could not proceed understandingly in the business upon the information now in their possession. He believed it would be necessary before they proceeded, that some Executive officer should take it up in some systematic point of view, contemplating what had already been done, and what Mr. LEE wished the report to be agreed to ought to take place hereafter. The Secretary of which he conceived it might be with safety. As the Treasury appeared to him to be the most pro- to the term of credit it might be submitted to per person. He, therefore, wished to refer the the discretion of the House after the blank was report to him; he might then converse with the filled up; he thought it of great importance to gentleman on this particular application, and as-sell and settle the vacant territory; it would add certain what might be most conducive to the general interest of the United States. He thought, however, that they should not undertake to make a sale to foreigners, on better terms, or more to suit their convenience, than was done to the citizens of America. He would, therefore, move to refer the report of the committee to the Secretary of the Treasury.

to the strength of the nation, and tend at the same time to extinguish the national debt.

If the House were not disposed to consider the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, it might be referred to the Secre tary of the Treasury, to use his discretion as circumstances should warrant.

Mr. SHERMAN thought the best way to manage Mr. SEDGWICK did not see what particular good this business, was to refer it to the Secretary of would result from_committing the report to the the Treasury, as was proposed. He said that the Secretary of the Treasury; if it had been ex- unappropriated land in the Western Territory tended further, it would meet his idea, and per- was a great fund of wealth, and which, if properly haps the gentleman might be willing to go with disposed of, might extinguish the national debt, and him and extend the motion so as to direct the be peopled by a valuable class of citizens; but if Secretary to report some general regulation for from a mistaken policy, it was thrown away upon the distribution of those lands. He thought the foreign adventurers or speculators, the publie Legislature totally incompetent to form contracts would get nothing for it, as had been the case with individuals on this subject; it was difficult heretofore, in the sale of large districts, where the for so large a body to guard against impositions; expenses attending the surveys, &c. left very litle besides, it would be a waste of the public time, profit to the United States. It is true, such mea which could be illy spared from more important sures may induce a number of foreigners to come subjects. He was decidedly opposed to selling among us; but then it ought to be remembere lands, unless the whole of the purchase money that such are generally persons of different edu was paid down. He would never consent to cation, manners, and customs, from the citizens make individuals debtors to the Union, because it of the Union, and not so likely to harmonize is tended to weaken the hands of the Government. a Republican Government, as might be wishe If they received but one-third of the payment, consequently, any considerable accession of this he should look upon the other two-thirds as relin-class of settlers might tend to disturb the harmony quished. and tranquillity, and embarrass the operations c Mr. BOUDINOT was willing to accommodate his the Government. He thought it was worthy of motion to that proposed by Mr. SEDGWICK. inquiry, whether America stood in need of em