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CHAPTER II.

Bill in the House of Lords repealing an Act of the last Session of Parliament; read for the first time.-Lord Sidmouth presents papers from the Prince Regent.-Lord Castlereagh moves the appointment of the Finance Committee in the House of Commons.--He presents papers from the Prince Regent.Debates.

N January 29 the House of House of Commons a bill repealing an act made in the last session of parliament, empowering his majesty to detain and secure such persons as are suspected of conspiring against his person and government.

On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the bill was then read through for the first time. The sequel began to exhibit a considerable difference of opinion, especially with regard to the gentlemen of the law, several of whom doubted how they were to understand that the parties taking the recognizances had a legal right to do so. A clause was introduced by lord Folkestone, proposing that all persons bound by recognizances under the Suspension act be henceforth completely discharged from them, but that this clause should not apply to any other recognizances. Objections being made to this proposal, his lordship withdrew the clause, and the bill was on the same day read a third time, and passed.

On February 2nd, Lord Sidmouth said, that in compliance

with the commands of the Prince

lordships certain papers relative to the state of the country. It was his intention to have moved that those papers should be referred to a secret committee; but as two noble lords, the mar quis of Lansdowne and lord Holland, who wished to be present, were prevented by a melancholy occurrence (the death of the earl of Upper Ossory), he would move on the following day for the appointment of a committee.

Accordingly, on February 3rd, the noble lord moved that the papers which he had yesterday laid on the table, should be referred to a secret committee to be chosen by ballot.

After some discussion on the subject, the motion was agreed to.

On the same day, Feb. 3rd, Lord Castlereagh moved the appointment of the Finance Committee in the House of Commons. The last committee, he said, had drawn up six extensive and laborious reports respecting the official establishments, the reductions and modifications of which might be advantageous to the

public service. It had also made inquiries on the great subject of the general revenue and expenditure of the country, and how far they were likely to square and meet. Other objects still remained for the consideration of the committee, and he should therefore move that it be revived. He should not think it necessary to give a detail of the measures which the king's ministers had adopted in consequence of that report, but it would be their duty, immediately on the reappointment of that committee, to give a full account of what they had done, on its recommendation. When he had first proposed the formation of this committee, he had observed, that a committee to inquire into so large a subject as the income and expenditure of the country after so long a war, would probably go on to a second or perhaps a third year before it would conclude its inquiries. His honourable friend, the member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce), had taken up this admission, and concluded, that because the inquiries were to be so long continued, nothing was to be done in the mean time. It would be seen that this inference was erroneous, and that the country had received substantial relief in point of sound economy.

He should now move to re-appoint the committee of last year, and should propose the same names, as well on account of their respectability, as on account of the great addition to their experience. His motion was to the following purpose: "That a select committee be appointed to inquire into and state the income +

and expenditure of the united kingdom for the year ended the 5th of January 1818; and also to consider and state the probable income and expenditure, so far as the same can now be estimated, for the years ending the 5th of January 1819, and the 5th of January 1820 respectively, and to report the same, together with their observations thereupon, to the House; and also to consider what farther measures may be adopted for the relief of the country from any part of the said expenditure, without detriment to the public interests."

The motion was agreed to, and 22 members were appointed from the number.

Lord Castlereagh on the same day presented, by command of the Prince Regent, a green bag, containing information respecting the internal state of the country, to be kept in the custody of the clerk of the House.

On the 5th of February, Lord Castlereagh rose to move, that the secret papers respecting the internal state of the country which he had brought down from the Prince Regent, be referred to a committee. Whatever views gen. tlemen might have as to the late transactions, they would come to the discussion much better able to enter into it, when the substance of the information contained in the papers was presented to them by a committee. It had been supposed that the committee had been appointed, not to convey to the House an account of the state of the country, but to lay the foundation of some particular measure. This was not the He would frankly state that

case.

that he thought a bill of indemnity necessary; but not as growing out of the report of the secret committee. He was ready to put the necessity of an indemnity act to the House as being naturally and necessarily connected with the former law. Much of the information on which the government had acted was necessarily such as could not be disclosed consistently with the safety of individuals, and with good faith towards them. He should distinctly avow, that a bill of indemnity was necessary after such powers had been entrusted to a government; and this claim might be strengthened by, though not founded on, the report of a committee. The committee would also show what the state of the country was; for though the prosperity of our commerce, and the vigilancy of the magistracy, had put an end to the great mass of danger, it would be a false view to suppose that the danger was at an end.

The noble lord then moved, "That the secret papers presented to the House by command of the Prince Regent on the 3rd instant, be referred to a committee."

Mr. Tierney, after passing some jocular strictures on lord Castlereagh and his bag, said, that the truth of the matter is this: the ministers know, that by their proceedings in the last year, they have, during the last months, been making out a prima facie case against themselves in the mind of every man in the country; and now they want to have a case made out for them, and that, under the sanction of a

committee of secrecy. The noble lord, with the candour of which he gives such frequent examples, says, he should have no objection to a bill of indemnity. No one will doubt, without this candour, that he wishes for a bill of indemnity if he can get it; and to this end he proposes a committee, chosen by ballot, to sit on the papers in this bag. Why, this was one of the coarsest juggles which had ever been played off upon mankind. How had the secretary of state acted? He had not taken up a few persons, who, by their influence, or by the ramifications of extensive connections might be dangerous, but he had gone, as it were, with a drag net through particular counties, taking up whole classes of men. He believed the secretary had acted hastily, and in a manner which he would not have done, if it had not been a cabinet system to take measures of vigour. Alarm had been the daily bread of the administration, and nothing was to be done but to keep alive the idea that danger was imminent, and that insurrections hung over our heads, but for measures which had been extorted from the parliament. They had now better information than they had last session. They had not to proceed upon hints in the dark, or on the impression which might be produced on any respectable gentleman in the committee, but on the result of long judicial proceedings.

After some observations on particular trials, in one of the most noted of which, he said, there was not a tittle of evidence that any danger existed which

could

could not have been met by the ordinary operation of law, he turned again to the noble lord, and asked, whether he could suppose that such a proceeding could be satisfactory either with a view to the vindication of the conduct of ministers, or the maintenance of the character of that House? Yet, if not to vindicate the conduct of ministers, for what purpose was the proposed committee to be appointed? The noble lord's committee would probably recommend an act of indemnity. This committee would first praise the ministers for their wisdom and humanity, and next propose an act to shelter them from any legal responsibility thus asserting at once that ministers were right, and that they ought to be sheltered from the consequences of being wrong. They had, in fact, filed a bill of indictment against themselves, probably with a view to prevent others from doing the same against them; and then they came forward, in a tone of defiance, exclaiming, "This is our green bag-who dare touch our green bag?" But notwithstanding this tone, they appeared resolved that their green bag should not be touched by any but particular friends.

Mr. Bathurst observed, that the right hon. gentleman appeared to think the course proposed on this occasion, quite a new mode of proceeding, forgetting, perhaps, that it was precisely the same as that adopted in 1801, with the support of the right hon. gentleman himself, and in opposition to arguments similar to those which he had just advanced. The manner was then quite agree

able to precedent. Parliament in that case felt as it must always feel; that government acting for the public safety should not be compelled to give up the sources of that secret information which had urged them temporarily to deprive individuals of their liberty. If, indeed, parliament declined thus to shield government, what government or ministers would be found to execute the powers granted by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus act? Mr. Bathurst then followed the right hon. gen tleman through several of his other positions. One of these referred to Oliver, of whom Mr. B. asserted that he had become acquainted with the conspiracy by accident, when he communicated his information to govern ment, by whom he was employed to continue his connexion with the persons through whom he obtained his information. But he afterwards observed, in explanation, that what he had stated was, that Oliver went down in company with one of the principal conspirators, and by this means became acquainted with the designs that were in agitation among them. Certainly this statement appears somewhat at variance with Oliver's declaration "that he had become ac quainted with the conspiracy by accident."

Sir S. Romilly perfectly concurred in opinion with the noble lord, that an inquiry was necessary, but totally differed from him with regard to the nature of it. The present was, he maintained, quite a new course of proceeding; for there was no instance upon record of the refe

rence

rence of papers to a committee but with a view to some legislative measure. The noble lord, however, had stated, that no such measure was in contemplation. What then was the object of this committee? On the first day of the session, immediately after the lords commissioners, representing the crown, had stated that tranquillity was restored, and that nothing more was wanting to maintain it than the vigilance of the magistrates, it was declared by the ministers, that they meant to remove the suspension of the Habeas Corpus act. No danger, therefore, could be apprehended by the ministers. And what then was the purpose of this committee? Why, solely to procure a report in defence of ministers, with the recommendation of an act of indemnity, which it was felt must necessarily be preceded by at least the appearance of inquiry into the present state of public opinion. It now appeared that ministers sought the shield of an act of indemnity; and when the administration of the trust was considered, the House was informed that a bill of that nature always followed a suspension of the constitution. He hoped the House would see the necessity of an ample investigation, and not suffer themselves to be deluded. The House, he trusted, would recollect, that though, according to the admission of the government, tranquillity was restored in September last, and though, acting upon the confidence of that tranquillity, they had restored persons to their liberty who had been six months in confinement, still they neglected to call par

liament together, and it was not until January that they thought proper to adopt that measure.

The transactions of last session were of such importance as called loudly for inquiry. He could not believe that the House would discharge its duty, or satisfy the expectations of the country, if it did not, by the fullest disclosure of all these transactions, make some atonement for the dangerous precedent which they had been induced in the last session to establish. Even the mass of individual suffering that was experienced under this act was far outweighed by the incalculable disadvantages entailed upon the general system of our government. What would have been the case if ministers had a precedent in the subject he was consi. dering. The parliament might look forward to some future minister, anxious to increase the power of the crown, long after the grave had closed upon the present generation. They might suppose some future sovereign of the House of Brunswick, but feeling in his breast the principles of a Stuart, willing to avail himself of such a minister, and preferring rather to imitate the despots of Europe, than to reign in the hearts of a free people. It had been truly said by an honourable baronet on a former occasion, that the Habeas Corpus act might as well have no existence, as be liable to such interruptions. For when was the act of any use? Was it not in times when his majesty's government was complained of; in times of disaffection to ministers, which they were always willing to re

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